Asking prices for OA thoughts

[Bobbyusc]

I have been dabbling in OA for a couple years. Nothing too serious. My main avenue for accumulating art has been through the various auction houses (comiclink and heritage). I like the format, where I can scroll through the art and just browse buy a random page as I like.

 

I know alot of people on here swear by CAF but for the life of me, I dont find it user friendly. Unless I haven't found it, there isnt a good way to just browse random artwork for sale.....

 

Also, I have noticed for the most part (and this is where your opinions come into play) that most peoples asking price is skewed much higher than what the art seems to be going at the auction houses. Im not talking highend pieces, Im just talking normal pages >$1000.

 

Even when people list pages in this forum, their asking price seems high. I know the "asking" price is a starting point but the the sales price and asking price seldom seem to be close. Additionally, most of the reps and "art dealers" are 100's more than what pieces auction for. Most of these pieces just sit without much turnover (you can witness this on CAF) or even in the OA for section here.

 

So, in summary to me, there seems to be a great disconnect between what people ask and what pieces go for. It makes it difficult to buy pieces because I almost feel that unless it goes at an auction house, Im paying to much. Am I seeing this correctly? DO you art buffs get the asking price without auctions? And if not, why such the large disconnect in asking and realized price?

 

Sorry for the random thoughts on this. I really want to buy more art but the whole industry seems pretty arbitrary.

 

 

[Terry Doyle]

You can always try to re-negotiate prices?

[malvin]

In general, auction prices will be lower because they are basically liquidation prices.

 

Also, chances are anything you see on CAF or any dealer site will tend to skew higher, because anything that was priced too low would be sold very fast. I do find that sometimes even when things are priced "fairly" they don't sell because there is no sense of urgency. In fact, I've had many items that fetch or more on eBay than what I was asking for on CAF.

 

Malvin

[Meeley Man]

Also, I have noticed for the most part (and this is where your opinions come into play) that most peoples asking price is skewed much higher than what the art seems to be going at the auction houses. Im not talking highend pieces, Im just talking normal pages >$1000.

 

I usually chalk that up to them expecting a buyer to "pay for their sentimental attachment." I always have seen people who say that something is for sale, but either have an extra high price or ask for offers, as someone who doesn't really want to sell. If they were, they'd be more reasonable from the start.

 

Additionally, most of the reps and "art dealers" are 100's more than what pieces auction for. Most of these pieces just sit without much turnover (you can witness this on CAF) or even in the OA for section here.

 

I can't speak for all reps and dealers, but I know I try to price the stuff I sell for my artists at or slightly below FMV. And on many things I still have some room to negotiate from there. So, with me, you can get a good and square deal, if you are looking for one. If you are looking to get the stuff on the super-cheap, that will never happen. And the thing you need to account for with a rep, over a dealer, is that the stuff isn't theirs. It belongs to the artist. Thus, the price might not be what THEY want it, but what the artist wants for it.

 

So, in summary to me, there seems to be a great disconnect between what people ask and what pieces go for. It makes it difficult to buy pieces because I almost feel that unless it goes at an auction house, Im paying to much. Am I seeing this correctly? DO you art buffs get the asking price without auctions? And if not, why such the large disconnect in asking and realized price?

 

As I said, for private collectors, most that asking an overly high price is likely due to sentimentality and a partial desire to not really sell it. For an art rep, that could be due to the desires of the artist they are working with and out of their control. In general, though, if you se something you like, try to negotiate on the price. You might not get it on the super-cheap, but most people will show some flexibility. As for those who don't, just make that mental note about them and move on. You can get some bargains and nice deals, if you follow this model.

[Terry Doyle]

In general, auction prices will be lower because they are basically liquidation prices . . . I do find that sometimes even when things are priced "fairly" they don't sell because there is no sense of urgency. In fact, I've had many items that fetch or more on eBay than what I was asking for on CAF.

 

Malvin

 

That's it in a nutshell. Collectors do grow complacent about art they want that has sat around FS on the likes of CAF. Put it in auction, then it's a case of would-be-buyers realising, "I betta put my azz into gear, or run the risk of losing out".

[AKA Rick]

Many private collectors who dabble into selling fall under 3 categories, either they're jaded by the hobby and just want to get out and price to sell; or they are in love with their collection and over value their pieces with pricing that's in line with "not over my dead body" style; or they are simply educated, fair and reasonable.

 

I've personally never found anything on CAF, have found stuff here on these boards, but private sales opportunities become far and few between. Many opt for the auctions, be it as DIY as eBay or through Comic Connect, Comic Link, or Heritage.

 

Doing your own research as both a buyer and seller is #1, just look at historical precedent in sales, as well as what is out there for sale (but not yet sold), as the rough high/low estimates to evaluate pieces you're considering buying/selling, with a grain of salt knowing OA is one of a kind, so it's not a price list, nor price guide, but rather valuation guidance. If you don't know how to do that or it's too much work, then you're probably not ready to sell nor buy.

 

Most private sellers, as well as art dealers and art reps are willing to "OBO" or best offer - and field inquiries. Some price their stuff so high (especially on eBay) at fixed prices they're willing to go 50% or more off of. Other's not so much, but maybe 10% or so. It doesn't hurt to ask nor cost anything but time to inquire, so it's worthwhile to ask ('tho don't nickle/dime like a cheapskate, since many a deal have been lost over trying to be penny wise, pound foolish - - for example, if there's a piece for $350 that you want, but you put in an offer at $325, and another buyer goes in and offers to pay the full $350, even 'tho your inquiry came in first, you'll lose out and it'll sell, even 'tho you might have been willing to pay the full price). Pick your battles wisely and offer to pay the most you're willing to pay if the price tag is too high when negotiating, rather than trying to play the whole high/low, meet in the middle game. There's more respect and integrity from a seller when dealing with a buyer who makes a solid offer and stands by it rather than one who is just trying to bargain shop.

[IngelsFan]

In general, auction prices will be lower because they are basically liquidation prices . . . I do find that sometimes even when things are priced "fairly" they don't sell because there is no sense of urgency. In fact, I've had many items that fetch or more on eBay than what I was asking for on CAF.

 

Malvin

 

That's it in a nutshell. Collectors do grow complacent about art they want that has sat around FS on the likes of CAF. Put it in auction, then it's a case of would-be-buyers realising, "I betta put my azz into gear, or run the risk of losing out".

 

There are pieces like that which I have had bookmarked in CAF for years then BOOM! panic mode when it goes up at auction.

[Meeley Man]

Most private sellers, as well as art dealers and art reps are willing to "OBO" or best offer - and field inquiries. Some price their stuff so high (especially on eBay) at fixed prices they're willing to go 50% or more off of. Other's not so much, but maybe 10% or so. It doesn't hurt to ask nor cost anything but time to inquire, so it's worthwhile to ask ('tho don't nickle/dime like a cheapskate, since many a deal have been lost over trying to be penny wise, pound foolish - - for example, if there's a piece for $350 that you want, but you put in an offer at $325, and another buyer goes in and offers to pay the full $350, even 'tho your inquiry came in first, you'll lose out and it'll sell, even 'tho you might have been willing to pay the full price). Pick your battles wisely and offer to pay the most you're willing to pay if the price tag is too high when negotiating, rather than trying to play the whole high/low, meet in the middle game. There's more respect and integrity from a seller when dealing with a buyer who makes a solid offer and stands by it rather than one who is just trying to bargain shop.

 

 

[staffman]

The high prices that you find listed on CAF, I find, can be mixed on how they arrived at that price.

 

Some prices are high because of sentimental attachment. The one who owns the item tends to overvalue it's worth more than the one who wants to acquire it. This is common in almost anything not just art. This also can lead to the path of, well I have it and if you ever want it this is what it is going to cost, so pay it or move along attitude.

 

Some prices are high, because they know they are going to have to haggle on price. About half of the transactions that I have done, have been a back and forth process. Sometimes you luck out and someone pays what you are asking, but half the time it's expected that you will have to take 10 to 20% off of what you want, so just like when some stores have a sale the original price seems to have jumped up.

 

Other prices are just delusional and hoping for that one big whale to come in and actually buy it. Just look at all of the complaints about the shenanigans that Coollines gets up to and you will see what I mean.

 

I do agree though on some of the prices are just way out of proportion with their "true" value. There are a few pieces on CAF I wouldn't mind purchasing, but the prices that are listed are over 50% of FMV and there is just no way I can justify that kind of spending (until I get that high paying dream job settled) so I just move along and act like it's not for sale.

 

Items I sell I don't try to slap too high of a price tag on. Some I do good on and some I lose money on. At the end of the day with all of the transactions I've made, I've come up even, which is fine since I didn't get into this to flip, I got into it because I like the art. This hobby is part nostalgia, part aesthetics, and part perceived value of the art. If you do want the artwork and have the money to spend then go for it. If the market crashed tomorrow and the items you bought are now considered "worthless" in a monetary sense, would you still enjoy the art? If the answer is no, then don't buy it. If the answer is yes, then enjoy the work and don't worry about the price tag since that is not what you bought it for in the first place.

 

My 2 Cents -

 

Chris

 

[Meeley Man]

If the market crashed tomorrow and the items you bought are now considered "worthless" in a monetary sense, would you still enjoy the art? If the answer is no, then don't buy it. If the answer is yes, then enjoy the work and don't worry about the price tag since that is not what you bought it for in the first place.

 

Yes, THIS. A 1,000 times this. Best advice anyone can give on the subject.

[Claudio]

If the market crashed tomorrow and the items you bought are now considered "worthless" in a monetary sense, would you still enjoy the art? If the answer is no, then don't buy it. If the answer is yes, then enjoy the work and don't worry about the price tag since that is not what you bought it for in the first place.

 

Yes, THIS. A 1,000 times this. Best advice anyone can give on the subject.

 

No way. When I buy a piece, I factor in resale value. I am willing to take a hit but not a total loss.

[Matches_Malone]

If the market crashed tomorrow and the items you bought are now considered "worthless" in a monetary sense, would you still enjoy the art? If the answer is no, then don't buy it. If the answer is yes, then enjoy the work and don't worry about the price tag since that is not what you bought it for in the first place.

 

Yes, THIS. A 1,000 times this. Best advice anyone can give on the subject.

 

No. No always applicable .

[staffman]

If the market crashed tomorrow and the items you bought are now considered "worthless" in a monetary sense, would you still enjoy the art? If the answer is no, then don't buy it. If the answer is yes, then enjoy the work and don't worry about the price tag since that is not what you bought it for in the first place.

 

Yes, THIS. A 1,000 times this. Best advice anyone can give on the subject.

 

No. No always applicable .

 

Don't get me wrong. If you are slapping down whatever amount of money that is causing you to question your comfort level, then maybe the piece isn't worth it. But you shouldn't just buy pieces because you think that will be the best you can get so might as well grab the low wrung item. We could speculate all day about what this will sell for and what this will appreciate to, but there is the ugly truth that the rug could be pulled out from under any of us tomorrow.

 

Did anyone here have the ability to foretell the housing market debacle that we are just finally climbing out here in the US? (or look at the baseball card collapse or the beanie baby craze, yes artwork is one of a kind so it's not the same, but price increases wildly expanding beyond most peoples purchasing level makes me raise my eyebrows) I wasn't in my dream home when that happened, so I have tied the house I'm living in to the cost and I now despise my house because I was supposed to only be here for my "5 year plan". If I bought the house I wanted even though I would have spent more during the height of the market, I would still enjoy that house more than the one I'm currently in, even if it lost value, because it's the house that I wanted.

 

If you bought all of these pieces in hopes that you will be at least fairly compensated upon their selling then that is a normal reaction and I would hope for the same myself. Yet, no other hobby that I participate in, can I expect any sort of return like I do in this one. Now I'm not saying there aren't other hobbies that can have an increase in the item you hold, but one should not spend more than they are willing to lose. So if you can't lose $10k and still not enjoy the purchase then don't do it. You are tying up the item with the value of what you put into it instead of what you are getting out of it.

 

Not looking to change anyone's minds since that rarely happens, especially on the internet. Either you will look at the value on everything and that's how you will move forward in this hobby and probably life, or you can enjoy it while you have the time and hope for the best.

[AKA Rick]

When I buy a piece, I factor in resale value. I am willing to take a hit but not a total loss.

 

I think the majority of collectors do factor in the "light at the end of the tunnel" in evaluating the investment potential of a piece when spending a certain level of money, whether it's $100, $1,000 or $10,000, it's the threshold where a buyer isn't so impulsive and starts to think and flinch based on price.

 

I can casually buy a piece of art for $10, and it it ended up being a forgery, getting damaged, stolen, or deemed worthless, I wouldn't feel that bad. I couldn't make that same statement about a piece that cost me $1,000 or more 'tho.

 

If art is truly about the image and enjoying the aesthetics a right click on the mouse to save that image costs nothing and it's free.

 

So, whenever you're spending a certain level of money on 8 oz of paper, be it a comic book or comic art, most factor in the value. Some do it for "bragging rights" in that pride of ownership. Others buy feeling there's room for financial growth, so it's an investment to eventually resell (or circling back to the "bragging rights", knowing they have a valued asset).

 

The OA market has been good to many collectors the past few decades, and the early onboarders in the hobby who have cashed out has seen good profits, and many have seen great opportunities for even thicker profits pass them by as they may have sold too early. It's hard to say when is the best time to sell. Some buy low, sell higher, use that money to buy something else low, and continue to make their money work for them like the stock market. Others buy low, sell higher or trade to buy something they couldn't afford that hasn't gone up in price. For example, I have a bunch of covers by an artist I paid $300 for. I really want a Steve Ditko Spider-Man page, but that's $30k. If my $300 covers goes up to $1k (reasonable expectation if the character or artists surges in popularity), and I sell 30 of 'em for $30k, and the Dikto stays around the same price, my cost basis is only $9,000 for that Ditko Spider-Man.

 

I think the one segment within the OA hobby which is more of a passion play than an investment is the acquisition of custom commissions from artists. Typically those are not great investments, but are definitely great emotional and experience based purchases. The nostalgia and memories might be priceless, but it's relegated to the one individual owner usually. Some commissions resell decently, but as a general rule, I'd personally never buy commissions on the assumption I'm going to resell them for good profits. I have hundreds of commissions, and pick the oddest (and probably least popular characters) because that's where I put my fan hat on and collect for myself. I've sold a few sketches and commissions before, and some for profit, but generally never buy commissioned pieces from other people's collections, since my motivations are in the whole process and experience of meeting the artist and requesting something for me, myself.

[zhamlau]

I always thought the difference in prices could be explained this way:

 

1. Auction is an items fair market value. Everyone who wants to play gets a fair even shot. No hard pressure sales or 1:1 private interactions where someone can get talked up on a price. If there are buyers out there for an item, surely they know these these major auction houses exist so they will be bidding and pay the max they are willing to go if an item excites them.

 

2. CAF is a lot like "Buy it now OR best Offer" on Ebay. Both are usually 25-45% over normal established market, so if you want to pay retail plus cause "you gotta have it NOW NOW NOW" than have it and buy it. And true occasionally the seller made a mistake and its actually a great price for the buyer and it gets snapped up in 30 seconds to 5 minutes of listing, but the vast majority of the time its just "Please will you pay me 40% more than anyone else on the planet? No? Ok well lets negotiate to a price either to full retail or just north of it". Not saying there's anything wrong with this, how you want to buy and sell stuff is all up to you, but its how i notice it mostly works.

 

Auction is probably in general its truest market driven price from what I've seen. If you can negotiate a price down, its gonna be well over market to keep the seller "safe". Thats why you see higher prices on non-auction online items for sale. If the price wasnt over market, someone would have taken it before you even booted up your system.

[Meeley Man]

I always thought the difference in prices could be explained this way:

 

1. Auction is an items fair market value. Everyone who wants to play gets a fair even shot. No hard pressure sales or 1:1 private interactions where someone can get talked up on a price. If there are buyers out there for an item, surely they know these these major auction houses exist so they will be bidding and pay the max they are willing to go if an item excites them.

 

Provided they saw the listing. And provided they had the money at the time to throw out a "reasonable" bid. This is why I never hold auctions as representative of FMV. Too many "x-factors" like these to say it truly is. I see it more the way I view prices for comics in Overstreet. It's called a "price guide" for a reason. Auctions are basically the same thing.

[Comic Art Factory]

I strongly disagree with the saying that auction price is the fair market value.

 

1. Not all collectors are always checking all auctions, even significant ones like Heritage and Comiclink.

 

2. Some collectors think their collection is complete, cause they got the grail they wanted or enough art of this artist for 3 lifetimes. And then the market value can take a dive. Or the same collectors continue to buy to maintain the market value of what they already own. But there is always question marks and no certainty ever.

 

3. A few collectors, very important on the market of one or two specific artists, can attend an auction, but save their money for a piece coming along further in the auction, so they don't bid on the previous one. So really, the auction price is only valid for this day and this day only. You need to align more than 4 or 5 auctions results to have a general idea of the market value of a specific artist on a specific series.

 

4. I've seen some new collectors, fresh to the market, fighting for a piece and paying nearly 2 times the market value, just because it's a brand new game for them. For having a better perspective on the market, you should know who bought what, when in their collecting time period, and consider what they already have in heir collection. But there's no way you should ever know that, so you can only guess. But most big collectors, even new ones, have middlemen on he auction floor, or on the phone for them. Some use 2 or 3 middlemen during the same auction cause they're very secretive.

 

5. Don't get me started on the professionals who advise rich collectors to overbid on art, cause then the price will rise for collectors who only evaluate the market with heritage and comiclink results. And then will magically appear a few pieces from the same series and the same artists from the private collection of the art dealer, who will then offer a very nice deal to some of his customers. Using a naive collector at auction, and then letting other customers think he's thinking of their well-being by offering them exclusively equivalent art at revised prices of course.

 

6.. There are many private deals that go over auction prices for pieces who never appear on the selling market. They're fresh, have been in the same collection for 20 years or so, and the buyer is hungry for them, and don't mind paying way too much for it, cause he's been waiting for so long.

 

7. what makes me smile, is people trying to sell at "auction result prices" the same kind of piece. Forgetting that put in the auction, they should cut the price about 20 percent for buyer's fee, and then 10 percent for consigner's fee (or they take a chance with the no reserve thing, which can be pretty dangerous). So even if they could get the same price than the previous piece sold, they would only get 72 percent of the selling price. That's a recurrent conversation I have with people who ask me to make offers, or want me to find a buyer for their art. So in the end, except for exceptional pieces, sellers should consider getting 80 to 85 percent of the 2 or 3 last auctions results prices as a very good deal.

 

I'm quite young in the hobby, Being only 41 years old, having collected for 8 years, and becoming professional 2 years ago. Mostly working on consignment with european artists and as a scout for some collectors. So this is only my very humble opinion. But being at the auction floor and keeping scores of when the fight for a piece is just between 2 people is interesting, cause usually, the market value is a little below, when there are still 4 to 5 people bidding on it.

 

What do you think gentlemen ?

[Nexus]

There's no greater teacher than experience. There IS often an arbitrary element to pricing. So, if you buy, you may end up paying "too much". If you're deathly afraid of "overpaying", then this hobby isn't for you.

 

Those of us who have been in the hobby a while, have taken our share of lumps. It comes with the territory. it's called tuition. There ain't no free lunch. But this tuition is what sharpens your gut for each successive deal...if you've got half a brain, you should start figuring things out pretty quickly.

 

The flip side is when you pass on something that you think is overpriced...and it turns out not to be.

 

You should use it all to calibrate. It takes time, it doesn't happen overnight. Most every collector I know who's been at this for a while, has it figured out for themselves. That doesn't mean they don't overpay...it just means that they pick their spots and when they do overpay, it doesn't matter because they'll be keeping the piece for the long haul. Of course, no one wants to take a bath, but that's not a primary concern, either. I do get the sense that those who are most concerned with overpaying, are already thinking of selling. IMO, if you don't plan on keeping the piece long term, then you probably don't like it enough to buy. I wish you luck.

[AKA Rick]

The term "overpaying" is relative to perception since all original art is one of a kind, so there's price guidance but no price guides, as each piece is unique.

 

My rules are:

 

1) Never pay more than it's worth to you. So, don't get caught up in a bidding war based on competition or impulse. However, don't lose out on a piece trying to negotiate or nickle/dime or place bids you'll regret not going deeper on after you lose, and just put your best efforts (thus, I'm not really into the whole sniping scene).

 

2) If a deal sounds too good to be true, it may be, so be wary of fraud and do your homework and build in layers of protection.

 

3) Don't buy on payment plans, it generally means you can't afford this non-essential luxury item that is less important than the necessities in life like paying off loans/debt; rent; taking care of the family; saving for a car or home or education; etc. This personal rule enables me to avoid that overpayment situation too.

[zhamlau]

See, I believe an auction is the truest fair way to judge a price for many reasons. For argument sake as it was mentioned earlier, lets suppose some focused mega collectors decide to take a few months off buying or bidding, or decide to sit and wait on items that would normally be in their wheelhouse (collusion, bored, GoT level mark manipulation and plotting, whatever). They are the extremes, the outer example (outliers?) as some would call them. Yeah they may buy most of an artists work that comes to market because they have near unlimited funds and are trying to corner a specific genre/artist...But that isn't necessarily "market", that's just "Oleg being Oleg".

 

If they take time off, or decide not to bid, what you see is the price for an item when not being driven by the hyper-motivated ultra deep pocket collector that exists outside the norm when it comes to buying art. I'm not saying they are artificially driving prices up, but what they are doing is competing with 2-3 others who have at this time decided "I gotta get me all these Paul Chadwick pages". They are establishing new high's, good for them. But for the other 1000+ folks who want those pages, the prices the Oligarchs pay for trinkets is far fetched and out of reach. If for any reason those 3 folks decide to call it a day, the price will drop down to where the normal folks play. Doesn't mean that the piece when final hammer falls was stolen or sold for "wholesale" necessarily, it just showed what happens when bidding occurs by people who actually are concerned about price spent.

 

That seems like market price to me, that's why I like auctions.

 

Besides, if you truly have a passion for collecting something, if it goes to major widely known/accepted auction and you truly care, you will make note and pay attention. You will bid. Yeah goofy things happen, sometimes prices fall (Trust me, ive seen many of my pieces in Heritage and CL finish at prices that made me sick to my stomach), but that just means market price was unstable, or I was to heavy into them in the first place.

 

Anyway, fun discussion. Love talking this stuff.