Shill Alert2....

[Foolkiller]

Well I am glad to see that we are all prepared to judge exceptionally harshly based on, by these accounts, a whopping TWO transactions. I did click on the links, and I continue to maintain my stance.

 

Do I think that Dan deserves a complete pass? Absolutely not. But what I think this thread is an example of is an example of how the boards have become less about giving and sharing information, and more about pursuing people on some sort of crusade.

 

october_fire: I'm addressing you particularly because I really disagree with the tone you're taking here: he shilled twice, he lied, so now he's worthless? You are passing an incredibly quick judgment. You're in law school right? The harsh lines of black and white aren't so boldly drawn in the law, nor are they drawn so in real life. I'm not going to justify the actions that were taken by FD, but what I'm saying is that perhaps our reaction ought not to be judge harshly in all circumstances. I think you do have to consider that Dan is a positive member of this community and has dealt honestly in many, many transactions. It's very easy to sit here and pass judgment on two transactions and to declare the character of somebody null and void.

 

I think there are other board members who may have, on occassion, shilled their own auctions. It doesn't make it right in the least, but I wonder if there's any hypocrisy going on in these boards (and maybe not by participants in this specific thread).

 

I think it's interesting how we are so quick to be harsh, and yet nobody wants to speak up that Dan made a mistake and perhaps ought to be met with some consideration for forgiveness and compassion, rather than jumping down his throat.

[FlyingDonut]

This is my last post for a while. Yes, I [#@$%!!!] up. There, is everybody happy? I committed the heinous act of having my brother win a book. I hope that everybody here will forgive my transgressions, as I'm sure nobody here has ever thrown a thrill bid on something, or a punishment bid, or anything else. I also hope that the police keep looking for other transgressions, and come down as hard on others as I deserve to have been come down on.

 

But that's beside the point. I'll happily donate the Weird Science-Fantasy 29 that caused all this ruckus to a forum charity auction, and give all the proceeds to whatever charity the board sees fit, or I'll give it to dmsr226 (or whatever his name is).

 

Yes, I made errors of both judgment and action, and hope that the record of my posts will be enough. I hope to speak with people down the road.

[Stronguy]

I think we should have Dan buy us beer. That would make me happy.

 

Oh, and send the Weird Science-fantasy to me as well. That should square the deal.

[rob_react]

I think it's interesting how we are so quick to be harsh, and yet nobody wants to speak up that Dan made a mistake and perhaps ought to be met with some consideration for forgiveness and compassion, rather than jumping down his throat.

 

Chances are that anyone with an urge to say something like that knows that it will end up getting crushed under the weight of the forum on the attack.

[Foolkiller]

well, Rob I'm not. Let the forum (or a portion thereof) bring it on.

 

I truly believe that the right treatment is not going on here. I understand people's anger about dishonest conduct (believe me) bad conduct by a forum member (also first hand experience) and I've found that when given the opportunity to greet those people in life with harshness first and compassion and forgiveness second, you always come out behind.

 

I think that's true in life. I think that all of us, and I include myself in this, are quick to pass our judgments of other people first. It's very easy to be harsh and tell people what's right, and what's wrong. I think it's much harder to simply give people a second chance to do the right thing. Based on Dan's overall behavior, that's a second chance I think we ought to give.

 

Dan just apologized above. What more do people want from him? He knows it was wrong -- I think it would be more fair to let the issue die. If it happens again, then perhaps I would be less willing to raise the defenses.

[october]

You might be right, maybe I am being harsh. I really don't care. I don't shill and I never will. It is little better than outright theft in my opinion. I understand that he has a rep as a good guy and that many, many people have done transactions with him. Some might be inclined to cut him slack because of this. I take the opposite tack. He should be held to a higher standard. Bottom line he should have known better. Two shills have been found in the last day. How many do you need to see a pattern FK? Four, five, a dozen? The shilling does not sit well, but the out and out lying he did about it is not acceptable.

 

As far as my interest in this, I bid on the book in question the first time it was listed and I lost by a dollar. I PMed Donut about it when it was listed the second time and I got no response. I have bid on his subsequent auctions. I don't know about you, but I don't enjoy being lied to or possibly being shilled on auctions I have bid on. If you want to cut him slack, that is your business and I will respect your opinion. As for me, I will not.

 

If Donut wants to continue posting on here, fine. I won't throw a fit. I am not in favor of running ANYONE off the forum. That being said, he has to take his lumps. Plain and simple.

[hobbes]

well, Rob I'm not. Let the forum (or a portion thereof) bring it on.

 

I truly believe that the right treatment is not going on here. I understand people's anger about dishonest conduct (believe me) bad conduct by a forum member (also first hand experience) and I've found that when given the opportunity to greet those people in life with harshness first and compassion and forgiveness second, you always come out behind.

 

I think that's true in life. I think that all of us, and I include myself in this, are quick to pass our judgments of other people first. It's very easy to be harsh and tell people what's right, and what's wrong. I think it's much harder to simply give people a second chance to do the right thing. Based on Dan's overall behavior, that's a second chance I think we ought to give.

 

Dan just apologized above. What more do people want from him? He knows it was wrong -- I think it would be more fair to let the issue die. If it happens again, then perhaps I would be less willing to raise the defenses.

 

Kudos to you Brian.

I knew someone would come along and say what I wanted to say in a much better way than I could.

[BradleyX2]

Donut,

 

I'm sorry you feel a bit harangued presently, but really, you should have just explained everything from the beginning. If you have doubts about weather something you're thinking about doing might be kosher, ask the forum here beforehand.

 

(BTW, I'm sure that of the thousands of comics you sell every month, there's noting shady going on).

 

I understand you wanting to take a break for awhile, but I hope it's not too long. From the time I've been on the boards, you seem like one of the friendliest and knowledgable guys here. That said, if I'm ever in Reston (not out-of-the-question since I lived in Herndon for 10 years) I'll gladly buy you a beer and shoot-the-breeze about comics if you'd like.

[Rip]

Charity....Nobel gesture,... I'll bet that would make most people happy

[Foolkiller]

october_fire:

 

I'm not asking you to bid on his auctions or perhaps even to trust him in the same way that you might have. What I'm a little disappointed by is the language (and I don't want to just target you specifically) that I'm seeing that FD is now the devil.

 

Yes, perhaps we expect more out of Donut because he became a trusted member of this community. Yes, perhaps that makes our disappointment even more drastic. But everyone makes mistakes. Everyone.

 

I agree he should have known better, but I think we extend our forgiveness to many people for far greater transgressions. I think before we are so quick to attack, and again I include myself in this group sometimes, we ought to pause for a moment.

 

I'm not advocating that what you were saying was per se wrong, or even that calling what FD did was wrong was in any way problematic, but when you go back and read the tone in your threads, it's extremely harsh and spirited. I am hopeful that we look not at a few actions of Dan, but rather in total that he has been a generally honest person.

 

I think that all of us have committed acts of dishonesty in our adult lives. Whether it is committed to business or not, I question whether we would want ourselves to stand in judgment so harshly. And I'm not saying that calling things right and wrong is a problem, or that even calling Dan out on this is a problem, it's the degree which is problematic for me.

[whetteon]

Wow, I read all 13 pages and it went from demanding a newbie to show his "proof" to chasing the newbie off the boards, to hunting down Flying Donut, to chasing Flying Donut off the boards and then finally a couple sentences about an apology or something muttered under the mobs breath. Whew, this board has some hostility!

 

Btw, don't chase me out please! I like it here.

[october]

You are a better man than me FK. You are right, my choice of words could have been a little less glaring. If I came across as unduly harsh, I apologise. I detest eBay impropriety and I absolutely loathe lies. I am not a saint by any means, but I try and hold myself to a higher than average standard of honesty. I do have a propensity to fly off the handle in certain situations, I guess this was one of them. We all try and remain cordial and diplomatic in most cases, but this just REALLY rubbed me the wrong way.

 

In any case, if FD wants to continue posting I won't argue. As far as trusting him, bidding on his auctions, or even paying attention to what he says? That is a foregone conclusion. I guess I will just chalk this up as another black mark on eBay sellers and on the hobby in general. Lord knows it will have a lot of company.

[rob_react]

well, Rob I'm not. Let the forum (or a portion thereof) bring it on.

 

I truly believe that the right treatment is not going on here. I understand people's anger about dishonest conduct (believe me) bad conduct by a forum member (also first hand experience) and I've found that when given the opportunity to greet those people in life with harshness first and compassion and forgiveness second, you always come out behind.

 

I think that's true in life. I think that all of us, and I include myself in this, are quick to pass our judgments of other people first. It's very easy to be harsh and tell people what's right, and what's wrong. I think it's much harder to simply give people a second chance to do the right thing. Based on Dan's overall behavior, that's a second chance I think we ought to give.

 

Dan just apologized above. What more do people want from him? He knows it was wrong -- I think it would be more fair to let the issue die. If it happens again, then perhaps I would be less willing to raise the defenses.

 

I'm with you here, I just know what this place is like when there's blood in the water.

[Rip]

Its a non stop Roller Coster of fun baby!!!....put your seat belt on tight..........

[Foolkiller]

I don't think I'm a "better man" or anything else october_fire. I think you are right to detest lying. We certainly don't want to laude that as a quality in others. I have no doubt that you are probably a very honest person, and one who is genuinely outraged at cases of fraud and dishonesty (now take that law degree and become a DA, your outrage will be well placed then!).

 

On the other hand, the ethics of all issues, while important, are not the be all and end all of how we ought to live and act. How we treat others, whether or not we forgive or show compassion towards them, is also equally important to our ability to improve the quality of society around us. Making the judgment of right and wrong is a portion of the equation, but by living as an example, I think we can look beyond a few actions and show true forgiveness.

 

Since I know Dan personally, I have the benefit of knowing that he is a good person since I have seen it up close and personal. Others have not had that benefit.

[Samurai-Bill]

well, Rob I'm not. Let the forum (or a portion thereof) bring it on.

 

I truly believe that the right treatment is not going on here. I understand people's anger about dishonest conduct (believe me) bad conduct by a forum member (also first hand experience) and I've found that when given the opportunity to greet those people in life with harshness first and compassion and forgiveness second, you always come out behind.

 

I think that's true in life. I think that all of us, and I include myself in this, are quick to pass our judgments of other people first. It's very easy to be harsh and tell people what's right, and what's wrong. I think it's much harder to simply give people a second chance to do the right thing. Based on Dan's overall behavior, that's a second chance I think we ought to give.

 

Dan just apologized above. What more do people want from him? He knows it was wrong -- I think it would be more fair to let the issue die. If it happens again, then perhaps I would be less willing to raise the defenses.

 

I'm with you here, I just know what this place is like when there's blood in the water.

So it's ok to shill if your one of the " gang " .

 

I hate this . This is why " key " books command big prices , the market is manipulated by people who " protect market value " .

[rob_react]

well, Rob I'm not. Let the forum (or a portion thereof) bring it on.

 

I truly believe that the right treatment is not going on here. I understand people's anger about dishonest conduct (believe me) bad conduct by a forum member (also first hand experience) and I've found that when given the opportunity to greet those people in life with harshness first and compassion and forgiveness second, you always come out behind.

 

I think that's true in life. I think that all of us, and I include myself in this, are quick to pass our judgments of other people first. It's very easy to be harsh and tell people what's right, and what's wrong. I think it's much harder to simply give people a second chance to do the right thing. Based on Dan's overall behavior, that's a second chance I think we ought to give.

 

Dan just apologized above. What more do people want from him? He knows it was wrong -- I think it would be more fair to let the issue die. If it happens again, then perhaps I would be less willing to raise the defenses.

 

I'm with you here, I just know what this place is like when there's blood in the water.

So it's ok to shill if your one of the " gang " .

 

I hate this . This is why " key " books command big prices , the market is manipulated by people who " protect market value " .

No, shilling is not okay, and this "read between the lines/ put words in my mouth" [#@$%!!!] is exactly why I didn't say anything before. Even though I said nothing about shilling in my post, I'm somehow defending the practice WTF?

 

SHILLING IS NOT OKAY.

 

There, I spelled it out so there can be doubt about how I feel.

 

DAN MADE A MISTAKE! WHAT HE DID WAS 100% WRONG!

 

Is that clear or will that somehow be misconstrued as well?

 

My bet is that it will be and my gut feeling- to stay out of this completely; will prove to have been 100% correct.

[Ze-man]

Donut,

 

I'm sorry you feel a bit harangued presently, but really, you should have just explained everything from the beginning. If you have doubts about weather something you're thinking about doing might be kosher, ask the forum here beforehand.

 

 

Exactly..

 

There is nothing wrong with anyone pointing out an auction that appears to be funny to them. They are in a public market.. open for all to see.

And if things are correctly brought to light that paint a person in a negative way.. Well that person is rightfully raked over the coals for it.

That person should either explain away the questions at hand, or take a hike.

 

Some here do not like the so called witchhunt mentality, Well I freaking love it.

Keeps everyone honest, and helps weed out those who might not play by the rules the rest of us play by.

Mind you I do not condone unjust accusations..or mud slinging... but when people bring up things about someone who is selling things to the public, in a public forum. And those accusations pan out to be true.. well does that not better serve the needs of the many, not the few? I would rather everyone turn over stones , and find nothing.. then nobody turn them over letting what is underneath go on undisturbed.

 

I am sorry FD.. be it big or small.... ya still fugged up.. And you said as much in your last post. That certainly does help.

 

But I am from the camp of where there is smoke there is normally fire, and until caught.. most people do not change things that previously worked for them. So who knows if this was an isolated incident , or there are other things we dont know about.

You have forum cred, and alot of people who know you well, that should count for something. I personally wont buy from ya.. thats my choice.

You certainly do not need me to absolve you, or give you my blessing.

But I at least have a right to speak my mind.

 

It seems many people here have varying degrees of how they feel about what FD did. Each person will have to decide wether or not they wanna talk with, hang out with, or do business with FD themselves. Same as when this has happened in the past here, where people might or might not have done things many considered shady.

I personally have not really interacted all that much with you in the past..

If I see you in Chicago this summer I imagine this will be long forgotten.

 

 

I really am here for a good time..and it appears stuff like this is a part of the forum that some like, and some hate.

I cannot talk comics all day.. so I enjoy a little good honest detective work.

 

 

Kenny

[october]

I don't think I'm a "better man" or anything else october_fire. I think you are right to detest lying. We certainly don't want to laude that as a quality in others. I have no doubt that you are probably a very honest person, and one who is genuinely outraged at cases of fraud and dishonesty (now take that law degree and become a DA, your outrage will be well placed then!).

 

On the other hand, the ethics of all issues, while important, are not the be all and end all of how we ought to live and act. How we treat others, whether or not we forgive or show compassion towards them, is also equally important to our ability to improve the quality of society around us. Making the judgment of right and wrong is a portion of the equation, but by living as an example, I think we can look beyond a few actions and show true forgiveness.

 

Since I know Dan personally, I have the benefit of knowing that he is a good person since I have seen it up close and personal. Others have not had that benefit.

 

Well said. I do not have the benefit of knowing FD in person, so all I have to go by are his words and his actions, neither or which cast him in a favorable light. I agree I could have been a little more diplomatic in my choice of words and saved some of the vitriol, but I will not back down on my general point. I would have been more than willing to look past a single shilling incident. Everyone screws up, and I even stated that I thought it was an isolated occurrence. Then he lied. Then we found out he had shilled again. That evidence is more than enough for me. I believe he should be castigated for his actions. Maybe not as harshly as I did, but I certainly don't think he should be given a pass.

 

I am a fair man, but dishonesty rankles. I don't tolerate it from my friends or from strangers. Maybe I have given the impression that I am a draconian individual, given over to black and white analysis, but that is not the case. We all have pressure points that anger us more than others. This just happened to touch upon several.

 

As far as my personal life, I interned in the felony trial division at the Cook County State's Attorney's Office in Chicago, as well as in Dupage. It was an illuminating experience to say the least. It made me, simultaneously, more harsh and more forgiving. For anyone who has worked in a place like that, you will probably know what I am talking about.

[jbud73]

Ok, first let me say that I have had positive transactions before with Dan and I agree that he is a credit to the boards in terms of wealth of knowledge and demeanor. HOWEVER - I'm also jskywalker_73 one of the underbidders at $60.00.

 

During this auction a few things struck me as odd. First there was the scan - its a lot smaller than most Donut auction scans and he usually puts up back scans of the book on larger items (I think a WSF #29 qualifies). So I slap a bid in there and give Donut the benefit of the doubt and decide to email him and ask for bigger scan and scans of the back cover. These never came as he said he was busy etc etc and might not have time to et around to it. I expressed that I was seriously interested in the book, but wanted to make certain that it was better than my existing VG copy.

 

Its about this time that the shilling starts, I get the email stating I had been outbid and have a look at who it was. Now WSF is a pretty specific book, it doesnt come up for auction all that often and really only someone falmiliar with this historical significance of the cover and Frazetta in general would probably realize this. Its not a crossover appeal book like say Star Wars, or Spiderman. I have to say at this time I did go - but you know what had Dan supplied me with scans and IF they had confirmed that it was indeed a 6.0 this whole point might have been moot as I was prepared to easily go over $100 for it.

 

Its my feeling that either A) the book is over graded - which may be plausible since it was returned. B) The consignor has unrealistic expectations about the asking price. Either way, its a little bit easier to take the high road when you're NOT the one being shilled.

 

Someone with Donut's Ebay experience and he knows the system as well as anyone, should have put a reserve on the book. If the consignor really exists and has an expectation, how do you put it up for open auction like that. Once you do, you take your lumps and all the old school board members who are Ebay sellers have said this time and again in example after exmaple. And if he was really concerned with protecting the consignor and marketing the book, he should have punted me some better scans.

 

In the end I echo Pedigree's sentiment - its just really sad how a few $$$ will make a persons judgement go from bad to worse.