Mile High List 2 2

[sfcityduck]

On 9/24/2021 at 4:14 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Should be coming out any day now . . . . 

My guess is they finally realized that the stories for most pedigrees are better left untold.  Plenty of unsavory stories in comic dealer history.  Only a few of the known pedigree stories qualify as "feel good."  And I always wonder about the stories where dealer bends over backwards to NOT name the OO or provide any real backstory.  Makes me wonder what they are hiding.  

[lou_fine]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:27 PM, rob_react said:

FYI here is the best version I have, although it's out of date by a couple of years.

https://github.com/roblarsen/Edgar-Church-Collection-Data/tree/master/src

And for any true knowledgeable comic book person to put the Promise Collection books into the same ball park, let along the same room as this all-time historical and much much more complete high grade pedigree collection of GA comic books.  

[lou_fine]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:40 PM, sfcityduck said:

My guess is they finally realized that the stories for most pedigrees are better left untold.  Plenty of unsavory stories in comic dealer history.  Only a few of the known pedigree stories qualify as "feel good."  And I always wonder about the stories where dealer bends over backwards to NOT name the OO or provide any real backstory.  Makes me wonder what they are hiding.  

I actually don't think the back story for these pedigrees were the problem and certainly would have been the most interesting part of the book. 

My problem with the book the way that it was being planned out was the totally unnecessasy ties to the CGC grades, PQ, and their census population report which meant that the book would be effectively already out-of-date once it hit the shelves of the LCS's and bookstores.  That's why I have always felt that the GA volumes of the Gerber Photo-Journal Guide will always be relevant becasue they were meant to stand alone and be good for all-time, as long as you ignored their Relative Value Index (RVI) or whatever they called it in there.  Heck, although it might not be completely accurate now some almost 30 years later, I still considered their Scarcity Index (SI) of some use as it was an early attempt at estimating the number of books still in existence.    

[rob_react]

On 9/24/2021 at 5:49 PM, lou_fine said:

And for any true knowledgeable comic book person to put the Promise Collection books into the same ball park, let along the same room as this all-time historical and much much more complete high grade pedigree collection of GA comic books.  

Oh, it's insane! It's not even close. If you just take the Church books up until, say... 1941, it's more impressive than the Promise collection by a wide margin. I'd take individual Church runs (Action, for the most obvious example) than the whole Promise collection. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by rob_react

[rob_react]

oooh! Here's one that's even more provocative.... I'd take the Allentown books (135 books!) over the Promise collection.

[MB1952]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:27 PM, rob_react said:

FYI here is the best version I have, although it's out of date by a couple of years.

https://github.com/roblarsen/Edgar-Church-Collection-Data/tree/master/src

Thanks for the link. Amazing Pedigree Collection. 

[rob_react]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:35 PM, MB1952 said:

Thanks for the link. Amazing Pedigree Collection. 

Not just a link, I collated all the available data on the church collection and got it into a format people could use. That's a project I worked on over a couple of years. Passing around the incomplete data from the original list was not doing anyone any good. 

[rob_react]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:33 PM, rob_react said:

oooh! Here's one that's even more provocative.... I'd take the Allentown books (135 books!) over the Promise collection.

Even more provocative- I'd take Curator, White Mountain and Pacific Coast over the Promise books ()

[sfcityduck]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:49 PM, lou_fine said:

And for any true knowledgeable comic book person to put the Promise Collection books into the same ball park, let along the same room as this all-time historical and much much more complete high grade pedigree collection of GA comic books.  

In terms of quality, the MH/Church books are far and away the best -- something Heritage and CGC both emphasized in rolling out the Promise Collection.  In terms of historical import to comic collecting's business trajectory, Chuck's marketing of the MH/Church books was a watershed event that changed everything (for good or ill).  In terms of the backstory, the MH/Church Collection is not all that interesting, and the story is actually pretty depressing both as to the story of the OO and the story of how the books entered the market.  

The backstory on the Okajima and Promise OOs are far more uplifting, inspiring, and important than the backstory on Edgar Church and his not great family relationships.  

[rob_react]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:48 PM, sfcityduck said:

In terms of quality, the MH/Church books are far and away the best -- something Heritage and CGC both emphasized in rolling out the Promise Collection.  In terms of historical import to comic collecting's business trajectory, Chuck's marketing of the MH/Church books was a watershed event that changed everything (for good or ill).  In terms of the backstory, the MH/Church Collection is not all that interesting, and the story is actually pretty depressing both as to the story of the OO and the story of how the books entered the market.  

The backstory on the Okajima and Promise OOs are far more uplifting, inspiring, and important than the backstory on Edgar Church and his not great family relationships.  

I'll give Promise that, the story is amazing. The books are really nice, too. Just not in the same neighborhood as the Church collection.

[tth2]

First off, I don't know of any credible collector who is actually saying the Promise collection is comparable to the Church collection.  So you guys seem to be conjuring up a debate that doesn't exist. 

Second, you guys are overlooking one really critical factor--the Promise books are all coming out transparently and everyone has the ability to go after them.  Besides the fact that the release of the books from many of the previous big pedigrees like Church, Allentown, San Francisco, etc., took place during the relative infancy of the hobby, their releases were also not open to the public.  You had to be a big insider to get access to Chuck's annual release of Church books.  Apparently you had to be at the right comic convention to get a chance at the SF books.  

The only big pedigree that I can think of that was offered in a similarly open fashion was Pacific Coast, but that was pre-CGC.  People couldn't believe the grades that Roter was listing, and it wasn't until a few wealthier collectors went out to see the books in person that it was confirmed they were really as good as advertised, and then a feeding frenzy ensued but a few big collectors had a big head start. 

Finally, everyone can talk about how great the Church Timelys and early Supes/Bat books are, but none of us has an opportunity to buy any of them.  Even after John Verzyl passed on, his collection hasn't come on to the market.  So if you're someone who wants ultra-HG, fresh to market copies of mid-40s Timelys, the Promise collection is pretty much the only game in town.  

I actually haven't bought any Promise books, but I'm getting a little tired of all the people who seem obsessed with ing all over them or the people who are buying them because the Promise books aren't this or the Promise books aren't that.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 9/24/2021 at 8:32 PM, tth2 said:

First off, I don't know of any credible collector who is actually saying the Promise collection is comparable to the Church collection.  So you guys seem to be conjuring up a debate that doesn't exist. 

Second, you guys are overlooking one really critical factor--the Promise books are all coming out transparently and everyone has the ability to go after them.  Besides the fact that the release of the books from many of the previous big pedigrees like Church, Allentown, San Francisco, etc., took place during the relative infancy of the hobby, their releases were also not open to the public.  You had to be a big insider to get access to Chuck's annual release of Church books.  Apparently you had to be at the right comic convention to get a chance at the SF books.  

The only big pedigree that I can think of that was offered in a similarly open fashion was Pacific Coast, but that was pre-CGC.  People couldn't believe the grades that Roter was listing, and it wasn't until a few wealthier collectors went out to see the books in person that it was confirmed they were really as good as advertised, and then a feeding frenzy ensued but a few big collectors had a big head start. 

Finally, everyone can talk about how great the Church Timelys and early Supes/Bat books are, but none of us has an opportunity to buy any of them.  Even after John Verzyl passed on, his collection hasn't come on to the market.  So if you're someone who wants ultra-HG, fresh to market copies of mid-40s Timelys, the Promise collection is pretty much the only game in town.  

I actually haven't bought any Promise books, but I'm getting a little tired of all the people who seem obsessed with ing all over them or the people who are buying them because the Promise books aren't this or the Promise books aren't that.

Cmon in, tth. The water’s fine

[RareHighGrade]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:32 PM, tth2 said:

 

I actually haven't bought any Promise books, but I'm getting a little tired of all the people who seem obsessed with ing all over them or the people who are buying them because the Promise books aren't this or the Promise books aren't that.

 

On 9/24/2021 at 7:54 AM, tth2 said:

Fortunately I've mellowed with age.

?????  

 

[rob_react]

On 9/24/2021 at 9:32 PM, tth2 said:

First off, I don't know of any credible collector who is actually saying the Promise collection is comparable to the Church collection.  So you guys seem to be conjuring up a debate that doesn't exist. 

Second, you guys are overlooking one really critical factor--the Promise books are all coming out transparently and everyone has the ability to go after them.  Besides the fact that the release of the books from many of the previous big pedigrees like Church, Allentown, San Francisco, etc., took place during the relative infancy of the hobby, their releases were also not open to the public.  You had to be a big insider to get access to Chuck's annual release of Church books.  Apparently you had to be at the right comic convention to get a chance at the SF books.  

The only big pedigree that I can think of that was offered in a similarly open fashion was Pacific Coast, but that was pre-CGC.  People couldn't believe the grades that Roter was listing, and it wasn't until a few wealthier collectors went out to see the books in person that it was confirmed they were really as good as advertised, and then a feeding frenzy ensued but a few big collectors had a big head start. 

Finally, everyone can talk about how great the Church Timelys and early Supes/Bat books are, but none of us has an opportunity to buy any of them.  Even after John Verzyl passed on, his collection hasn't come on to the market.  So if you're someone who wants ultra-HG, fresh to market copies of mid-40s Timelys, the Promise collection is pretty much the only game in town.  

I actually haven't bought any Promise books, but I'm getting a little tired of all the people who seem obsessed with ing all over them or the people who are buying them because the Promise books aren't this or the Promise books aren't that.

I don't know of anyone either, I'm just reacting to the comparison because it's something I already had thought about. In the livestream talking about the collection they tried to put a dollar value on the collection and I immediately started to think about how thinly you could slice the Church books to match the value of the whole Promise collection. Allentown, as well.

In both cases, it's probably two books ,

That said, I'm enjoying the release of this collection. As I mentioned, I tuned into one of their livestreams talking about it. It's amazing that a collection of this quality can still be discovered at this point in time.

That said, ranking this collection (new and shiny as it is) versus some of the other collections is fun, too. And while I am trolling a little bit, I'm not kidding when I start naming collections that I think are better (including the three Silver Ae collections.) We all have gone through exercises ranking pedigrees. This is just a continuation of that.  While the story is amazing and the opportunity for collectors is a rarity, some of the landmark pedigrees in both the Silver Age and Golden Age are on another level. Seeing people question whether the hobby can "handle" the Promise books is silly when you think about what the impact of something like White Mountain, Pacific Coast or the Allentown books showing up today. 

Edited September 25, 2021 by rob_react

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/24/2021 at 8:32 PM, tth2 said:

First off, I don't know of any credible collector who is actually saying the Promise collection is comparable to the Church collection.  So you guys seem to be conjuring up a debate that doesn't exist. 

Second, you guys are overlooking one really critical factor--the Promise books are all coming out transparently and everyone has the ability to go after them.  Besides the fact that the release of the books from many of the previous big pedigrees like Church, Allentown, San Francisco, etc., took place during the relative infancy of the hobby, their releases were also not open to the public.  You had to be a big insider to get access to Chuck's annual release of Church books.  Apparently you had to be at the right comic convention to get a chance at the SF books.  

The only big pedigree that I can think of that was offered in a similarly open fashion was Pacific Coast, but that was pre-CGC.  People couldn't believe the grades that Roter was listing, and it wasn't until a few wealthier collectors went out to see the books in person that it was confirmed they were really as good as advertised, and then a feeding frenzy ensued but a few big collectors had a big head start. 

Finally, everyone can talk about how great the Church Timelys and early Supes/Bat books are, but none of us has an opportunity to buy any of them.  Even after John Verzyl passed on, his collection hasn't come on to the market.  So if you're someone who wants ultra-HG, fresh to market copies of mid-40s Timelys, the Promise collection is pretty much the only game in town.  

I actually haven't bought any Promise books, but I'm getting a little tired of all the people who seem obsessed with ing all over them or the people who are buying them because the Promise books aren't this or the Promise books aren't that.

From the top:

1. This is true, credible collectors aren't saying this, ...but there've been folks involved in the acquisition and promotion of these books that have alluded to this.  That said, promotion and unsolicited enthusiasm rising to the level of hyperbole isn't grounds for condemnation, just cooler headed examination.

2. The speed with which these books hit the market is an understatement.  If anything these hit the market too quickly and the manner in which they hit the market resulted in a feeding frenzy that would impress a school of piranha. 

3. I beg to differ on how the Church Collection was made available.  It was very public for that era.  There was a Mile High tabloid section in Alan Light's Buyer's Guide for Comic Fandom with Church books available for twice the current OSG pricing.  I know this because I bought several of them.

4. I have no opinion on the Pacific Coast collection, but the key here is pre-CGC.  The CGC is a grading company; how books are "offered" should not even be part of their equation.  At that point in time Heritage Auctions wasn't that engaged in comics sales either.  This actually gets to the root of a bigger problem, which is the appearance of collusion and market manipulation.  I'm not making that accusation, just raising the appearance of it as an observation. 

5. Why should the Verzyl family holding onto Church Timelys ...much of which aren't third party graded at this time... matter when evaluating other collections?  If comparing these pedigrees, to claim that the Promise Collection is better would still involve crossing one's fingers behind your back.

6. Only game in town? At the moment, maybe, but are you forgetting about the Chinatown Collection? That's a very new pedigree and ...subjectively speaking... from what I've seen the now under-graded copies look a lot better than some of the super-high grade Promise books.

7. I've purchased a couple of Promise books and have neither obsessed nor relieved myself on them after a few ales.  I'm not sure what is meant by "aren't this or aren't that" coming from buyers.  IMO, it's even more reasonable to make critical assessments when not sitting on the sidelines, but directly involved in the game so-to-speak.

 

On 9/25/2021 at 8:14 AM, rob_react said:

I don't know of anyone either, I'm just reacting to the comparison because it's something I already had thought about. In the livestream talking about the collection they tried to put a dollar value on the collection and I immediately started to think about how thinly you could slice the Church books to match the value of the whole Promise collection. Allentown, as well.

In both cases, it's probably two books ,

That said, I'm enjoying the release of this collection. As I mentioned, I tuned into one of their livestreams talking about it. It's amazing that a collection of this quality can still be discovered at this point in time.

That said, ranking this collection (new and shiny as it is) versus some of the other collections is fun, too. And while I am trolling a little bit, I'm not kidding when I start naming collections that I think are better (including the three Silver Ae collections.) We all have gone through exercises ranking pedigrees. This is just a continuation of that.  While the story is amazing and the opportunity for collectors is a rarity, some of the landmark pedigrees in both the Silver Age and Golden Age are on another level. Seeing people question whether the hobby can "handle" the Promise books is silly when you think about what the impact of something like White Mountain, Pacific Coast or the Allentown books showing up today. 

1. Parties involved in grading and sale (graders, auction houses) discussing values is never a good idea.  Once those with financial incentives get directly involved in speculation on how great the books are when compared to other pedigrees, price points or values motivations become suspect. 

2. I'm enjoying the lifestream discussions much more than the assessments of quality.  Yes, it's remarkable that rare books are still being discovered having survived in collections all these years.

3. It isn't trolling for collectors to express opinions about where collections rank in respect to overall quality.  In one sense it's a way of discussing both the caliber of collections and the contemporaneous grading. 

4. The story is amazing, but no more poignant than the San Francisco/Riley Collection story.  One brother making a promise to hold on to the other brother's collection if anything happens to him is heart-warming, but so is the story of parents buying books for their son while he was in the South Pacific in WWII and keeping his room as it was until he returned which he never did.  Both tales are heartbreaking and make for great pedigree legacies.  The difference ...besides the sizes of collections and keys... is a grading company and auction house got first the first look at the Promise Collection while a Comic Shop got the first look at the San Francisco/Riley books when they were brought-in in piece-meal fashion.

5. The hobby can handle more collections, particularly collections containing scarce books and high-grade keys.  Remember, the Chinatown Collection pedigree may also also be waiting in the wings.  It's very new, doesn't run as deep as the Promise Collection, but contains quite a number of classic late war and post war Timelys.  What no hobby can handle well is the appearance of manipulation and scandal.  Corruption and a decline in trust has hurt other hobbies in the past and we need to make sure our's remains totally above board.  All we can do as collectors is draw attention to things when they don't look or "smell" right.

I've really got to cut back on the caffeine! 

Edited September 25, 2021 by Cat-Man_America
ALE!

[rob_react]

Quote

1. Parties involved in grading and sale (graders, auction houses) discussing values is never a good idea.  Once those with financial incentives get directly involved in speculation on how great the books are when compared to other pedigrees, price points or values motivations become suspect. 

Comics are weird in that auction houses do not generally discuss values or give estimates, but in other categories I follow (fine art, watches, spirits, wine) it is commonplace. There's usually an estimate, right there in the description. 

For example, Sotheby's is explicit, in their press release, about the overall value of their recent consignment win.

Quote

On 9 September, at a global livestream event, Sotheby’s revealed details of the forthcoming landmark sales of The Macklowe Collection – one of the most important collections of any collecting category ever to appear on the market. Each of the 65 works is a consummate masterpiece; together they constitute an unrivaled ensemble that meticulously traces the most important art historical achievements of the last 80 years. Acquired over the course of half a century, the collection reflects decades of pursuit, honing and refining, driven by immense patience and an innate understanding of quality. Estimated to realize in excess of $600 million – the highest estimate ever placed on any collection to come to auction — The Macklowe Collection will be offered across two dedicated evening single owner sales at Sotheby’s in New York, on November 15 this year and in May 2022.

 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:41 PM, rob_react said:

Comics are weird in that auction houses do not generally discuss values or give estimates, but in other categories I follow (fine art, watches, spirits, wine) it is commonplace. There's usually an estimate, right there in the description. 

For example, Sotheby's is explicit, in their press release, about the overall value of their recent consignment win.

 

I think this Sotheby's model may be exceptional in that the CGC and HA seem to have a closer working relationship, appearance-wise.  Estimates of value in listing descriptions aren't unusual, especially if they're based on OSG grades & values which aren't affiliated with HA and are typically low-ball estimates.  Values are provided in Heritage comic listings at the end of descriptions along with the book's ranking in the census.  This actually adds to the appearance of coziness between the grading service and auction house in that HA apparently only recognizes the CGC census, so it's entirely possible when a listing says "X grade, none higher" in point of fact, there may be one or more books of equal or higher grade in another grading service's census.  

Again it's the subtle perception of favoritism, and to reiterate, I'm not suggesting any intentional bias on the part of the CGC and HA.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/25/2021 at 12:48 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

 

4. The story is amazing, but no more poignant than the San Francisco/Riley Collection story.  One brother making a promise to hold on to the other brother's collection if anything happens to him is heart-warming, but so is the story of parents buying books for their son while he was in the South Pacific in WWII and keeping his room as it was until he returned which he never did.  Both tales are heartbreaking and make for great pedigree legacies.  The difference ...besides the sizes of collections and keys... is a grading company and auction house got first the first look at the Promise Collection while a Comic Shop got the first look at the San Francisco/Riley books when they were brought-in in piece-meal fashion.

 

The Reilly story has never been confirmed - no one can figure out who "Riley" or "Reilly" is.  And, frankly, the Promise Collection story about an alleged "promise" by one brother to hold the other brother's collection has not been confirmed to my knowledge either even by those who know who the two brothers are - the only story I can confirm, frankly, concerns a more significant "promise" which Heritage has shied away (maybe even run away) from.  It is the backstory that is untold by Heritage which impresses me.  

To their credit, when Matt Nelson (CGC) and Brian Wiedman (Heritage) went on Youtube to promote the Promise Collection, they both said the Promise books were not as high quality as the Mile High / Church pedigree books.  

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:39 PM, sfcityduck said:

The Reilly story has never been confirmed - no one can figure out who "Riley" or "Reilly" is.  And, frankly, the Promise Collection story about an alleged "promise" by one brother to hold the other brother's collection has not been confirmed to my knowledge either even by those who know who the two brothers are - the only story I can confirm, frankly, concerns a more significant "promise" which Heritage has shied away (maybe even run away) from.  It is the backstory that is untold by Heritage which impresses me.  

To their credit, when Matt Nelson (CGC) and Brian Wiedman (Heritage) went on Youtube to promote the Promise Collection, they both said the Promise books were not as high quality as the Mile High / Church pedigree books.  

Sorry about the typo.  I meant Reilly, the name stamped on the back of many San Francisco pedigreed books (sometimes twice).  It could be a drugstore or other newsstand source for all anyone knows.  The name Reilly has never been officially confirmed as a wartime casualty and the mystery remains unsolved.  I'd love to know the real story. 

And you're right that Matt and Brian tried to downplay the quality expectations somewhat, but I'm not sure that carried over.  When it's stated that the Promise books aren't as high quality as the Mile High/Church pedigree, and then on your watch some of those books of arguably lesser quality are awarded the highest grades imaginable for golden age (9.8) you can understand why it might create a paradoxical atmosphere in the trust department.  

[tth2]

On 9/26/2021 at 3:48 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

3. I beg to differ on how the Church Collection was made available.  It was very public for that era.  There was a Mile High tabloid section in Alan Light's Buyer's Guide for Comic Fandom with Church books available for twice the current OSG pricing.  I know this because I bought several of them.

Sure, some Church books were made generally available to the public, but were all of them made available?  I'm pretty sure they weren't.  

On 9/26/2021 at 3:48 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

4. I have no opinion on the Pacific Coast collection, but the key here is pre-CGC.  The CGC is a grading company; how books are "offered" should not even be part of their equation.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  My point was that books being graded by a third party makes it easier for the market to evaluate and accept them.  I'm simply pointing out the difference in speed of market acceptance between books based on a dealer's grading and a third party grader.  We can argue whether CGC's grading is any better than Roter's, but in 2021 CGC's grading is accepted by the market.  No one had to make a trip out to Dallas to see the Promise books for themselves, or get confirmation from other knowledgeable collectors, before being willing to drop big money on them.  

On 9/26/2021 at 3:48 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

5. Why should the Verzyl family holding onto Church Timelys ...much of which aren't third party graded at this time... matter when evaluating other collections?  If comparing these pedigrees, to claim that the Promise Collection is better would still involve crossing one's fingers behind your back.

Again, you misunderstand my point.  My point is that Promise books are being criticized by some because they're not as good as [fill in the blank] pedigree, and buyers of Promise books are being criticized as saps for buying and paying huge prices for Promise books when they're not even the best copies.  What I'm saying is that when the potential best copies aren't publicly available and might never be made available, then there's nothing wrong with buying Promise books because they're the only game in town.

On 9/26/2021 at 3:48 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

6. Only game in town? At the moment, maybe, but are you forgetting about the Chinatown Collection? That's a very new pedigree and ...subjectively speaking... from what I've seen the now under-graded copies look a lot better than some of the super-high grade Promise books.

I don't get the impression that the Chinatown collection has the same breadth or depth as the Promise collection.  In any event, as far as I'm aware, the Chinatown books aren't for sale.

On 9/26/2021 at 3:48 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

7. I've purchased a couple of Promise books and have neither obsessed nor relieved myself on them after a few ales.  I'm not sure what is meant by "aren't this or aren't that" coming from buyers.  IMO, it's even more reasonable to make critical assessments when not sitting on the sidelines, but directly involved in the game so-to-speak.

Seriously, are you trying to purposely misinterpret everything I say in as negative a light as you can?  I was actually defending the Promise books and their buyers.  I was simply saying that I'm tired of all of the people (many who are not even buyers) who constantly criticize the collection because "it's not as good as the Church collection" or "it's not as good as the Allentown collection".  First, no one knowledgeable is saying that, and second, those copies from such better pedigrees may not be available to the general market, so they are "making do" with the Promise books and there's nothing wrong with that.