Mile High List 2 2

[Aman619]

Here here.  I’m also tired is the Promise books constantly being trashed as near worthless hype because people post scans and scream “over graded” and “favoritism” ad nauseum. 
 

I don’t get the zeal and sheer effort so many here exhibit tarnishing this collection. I’m not buying them so I don’t have a horse in this fight.  But I can Recognize what a big deal this is in the history of our hobby.  People say it’s not the Church collection. Okay sure. But it ain’t chopped liver either.  I think people are overpaying for many of them, but, maybe not in the long run. 
 

 

[LowGradeBronze]

On 9/26/2021 at 8:19 AM, Aman619 said:

...I think people are overpaying for many of them, but, maybe not in the long run. 
 

 

The overpaying is across the hobby really, as the Bronze explosion is showing us. Many factors for this, but as my generation (approaching 60,) reach the age where disposable income is probably at a higher level than for any previous generation, (poss including the post war Baby Boomers,) that could have something to do with it.  There's also the very real feeling that maybe its a  'last chance to buy' as new pedigree collections out there in the wild, waiting to be found and brought to market, must surely be getting scarce now. After all, it is 2021 and the GA ended more than six decades ago. 

[tth2]

There are lots of good reasons to buy Promise books, and also lots of good reasons not to buy Promise books.  Whether individual Promise books are as nice as their counterpart from the [fill in the blank] pedigree could be a valid reason.

But the fact that the Promise collection is not as great a collection as the Church collection is completely irrelevant.  It's just a weird criticism that's being used by people who for whatever reason have an axe to grind with the Promise collection.  Oddly, I've never once seen any of those same people say that no one should buy a book from the Larson collection or the Cosmic Aeroplane collection because those collections aren't as good as the Church collection.  Or criticize the Larson collection (or any other pedigree) for not being as good as the Church collection.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

While critical of the grading, I am happy the Promise collection came along when it did. I have maybe 5 more years in my collecting arc, and I now have books available to me that never would have been otherwise. I missed the release of other pedigrees, so I’m all in on this one.

good thing for me it ain’t about the profit

[RareHighGrade]

My only criticism of the Promise collection is the inexplicably lax grading on several of the books, including keys.  Apart from that, I think it's an incredible collection in terms of overall quality, especially scope and grade.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:17 AM, tth2 said:

1. Sure, some Church books were made generally available to the public, but were all of them made available?  I'm pretty sure they weren't.  

I don't understand the point you're trying to make.  2. My point was that books being graded by a third party makes it easier for the market to evaluate and accept them.  I'm simply pointing out the difference in speed of market acceptance between books based on a dealer's grading and a third party grader.  We can argue whether CGC's grading is any better than Roter's, but in 2021 CGC's grading is accepted by the market.  No one had to make a trip out to Dallas to see the Promise books for themselves, or get confirmation from other knowledgeable collectors, before being willing to drop big money on them.  

Again, you misunderstand my point. 3. My point is that Promise books are being criticized by some because they're not as good as [fill in the blank] pedigree, and buyers of Promise books are being criticized as saps for buying and paying huge prices for Promise books when they're not even the best copies.  What I'm saying is that when the potential best copies aren't publicly available and might never be made available, then there's nothing wrong with buying Promise books because they're the only game in town.

4. I don't get the impression that the Chinatown collection has the same breadth or depth as the Promise collection.  In any event, as far as I'm aware, the Chinatown books aren't for sale.

5. Seriously, are you trying to purposely misinterpret everything I say in as negative a light as you can?  6. I was actually defending the Promise books and their buyers.  7. I was simply saying that I'm tired of all of the people (many who are not even buyers) who constantly criticize the collection because "it's not as good as the Church collection" or "it's not as good as the Allentown collection".  8.  First, no one knowledgeable is saying that, and second, those copies from such better pedigrees may not be available to the general market, so they are "making do" with the Promise books and there's nothing wrong with that.

Once again, I've boldfaced specific assertions and numerically addressed each point.  Please note that none of my counterpoints is intended as personal criticism.

1. Yes, most were.  That tabloid was two sections and quite thorough, many of the books graded NM+ and lived up to that and more.

2. And that was my point of contention.  As long as the third party grading service is trusted or "accepted by the market" as you stated it makes them "easier to market" as you also stated.  It takes dealer bias out of the equation, ...but what happens when it starts to look like third party grading service bias enters the picture, or even third party grading service combined with auction house or third party grading service combined with data service, etc.  Will the market continue to trust and accept or is there a perception problem that harkens back to dealer bias?  IOW, does what goes around come back around?  Do you get my reasoning here? This is all theoretical per se, but the bigger the money and higher the stakes the more likely the opportunity for corrupt practices.  This is not accusation, just speculation, and speculation over top dollar investments is what the markets are all about.

3.  Let me get this out first, I'd never accuse anyone of being a sap for buying something.  You completely missed my point.  The Promise Collection must be the best copies! Why? Because the CGC has graded them highest.  That is what folk's are paying for, the designation that can't be bested.  When you're buying something with a grade designation, that's a final determination.  If the book doesn't meet the expectation, it doesn't matter.  Even if the standards for grading changed, you've still purchased the best grade determination.  It may not be the best copy from past assessment, but by george, you've got the best darned grade!

4.  The depth and breath of the Chinatown Collection doesn't matter.  It is a pedigree and has a lot of popular books (Timely) in grade that overlap the Promise Collection.  This may sound cynical, but is it any surprise that in the heated auction market we find ourselves in there wouldn't be an overlap of key auction books.  Competing pedigree books would be leaving money on the table and invite closer scrutiny to the grades.

5. No, I'm not misinterpreting what you've said nor trying to cast your views in a negative light.  Well reasoned minds can differ, and I think that's what's happened here. 

6. I'm a Promise buyer, but also an honest critic of certain aspects of the collection and some of the grade opinions.  That doesn't mean you aren't an honest advocate, we just see things differently.

7. It's reasonable to understand why these comparisons are made when a grading service seems to be handing out 9.8 grades like lollipops at the doctor's office.

8. Knowledgeable or not, these things have been said, and the one jaw dropping comment you made in your entire critique of my own criticisms is the line '"making do" with the Promise books'.  You're right, there's nothing wrong with making do until something better comes along, but I hope you're not offended that I found nothing wrong with laughing out loud at the very absurdity of this in the context of the Promise Collection.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Cat-Man_America
Editing (expect more later if needed)

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/26/2021 at 2:19 AM, Aman619 said:

Here here.  I’m also tired is the Promise books constantly being trashed as near worthless hype because people post scans and scream “over graded” and “favoritism” ad nauseum. 
 

I don’t get the zeal and sheer effort so many here exhibit tarnishing this collection. I’m not buying them so I don’t have a horse in this fight.  But I can Recognize what a big deal this is in the history of our hobby.  People say it’s not the Church collection. Okay sure. But it ain’t chopped liver either.  I think people are overpaying for many of them, but, maybe not in the long run. 
 

 

Those tired of this must not be getting enough rest. 

Seriously, no one critical of the grades is trashing the Promise Collection, but reasonable folks can differ and should be allowed to bring forward fair criticism.  If you don't think that there's favoritism I'm sure you can make that case.  It wouldn't surprise me if someone picks up on your use of the word tarnish and goes into a panic about moisture damage being asserted.  

Overpaying!!! ...I'm shocked to see that there's gambling in this establishment! 

[Aman619]

There’s been a lot of criticism of the Promise books. Continued accusations of gift grades and preferential treatment, as you alluded to.  I don’t buy it. 
 

what plenty of people love to do is speculate about this stuff. Again and again. And make comments about what they think is going on.   Of course cause this is the internet where all viewpoints are okay. 
 

I think some of these books challenged grading assumptions at CGC. Perfect bound tight flat shiny GA books with flaws that didn’t come from the usual wear and tear that books in circulation suffered from. CGC decided to allow them. Internet says it was collusion. Has to be cause of overlapping ownership and cause the world is rigged.  
 

we can agree to disagree. Kudos to you for buying them though. Big boy pants indeed!  

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 9/26/2021 at 2:55 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Those tired of this must not be getting enough rest. 

Seriously, no one critical of the grades is trashing the Promise Collection, but reasonable folks can differ and should be allowed to bring forward fair criticism.  If you don't think that there's favoritism I'm sure you can make that case.  It wouldn't surprise me if someone picks up on your use of the word tarnish and goes into a panic about moisture damage being asserted.  

Overpaying!!! ...I'm shocked to see that there's gambling in this establishment! 

 

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 9/26/2021 at 3:40 PM, Aman619 said:

There’s been a lot of criticism of the Promise books. Continued accusations of gift grades and preferential treatment, as you alluded to.  I don’t buy it. 
 

what plenty of people love to do is speculate about this stuff. Again and again. And make comments about what they think is going on.   Of course cause this is the internet where all viewpoints are okay. 
 

I think some of these books challenged grading assumptions at CGC. Perfect bound tight flat shiny GA books with flaws that didn’t come from the usual wear and tear that books in circulation suffered from. CGC decided to allow them. Internet says it was collusion. Has to be cause of overlapping ownership and cause the world is rigged.  
 

we can agree to disagree. Kudos to you for buying them though. Big boy pants indeed!  

I buy from the Promise Collection, and I try to avoid stuff like this, but I couldn’t disagree with you more.

Here’s a book graded a year ago, knocked down in grade for exactly the things CGC turned a blind eye to in the Promise Collection: dust shadows and publication defects.  
 

Tell me, is this speculation? 

 

[Aman619]

you wont like this answer, but I cant grade from a scan. (especially a book that looks flawless in the scan).  CGC doesn't either. Yours is an amazing copy! Crack it out and place it next to a raw Promise book you feel has identical problems.  Call me over and lets compare them carefully under good lights etc like CGC does before we just say you got shafted, or someone else got a gift grade.  I too have a lot of incredibly tight books that got lower grades than I expected.  And also some went higher too.  Graders notes dont list everything either, nor were they intended to. 

[jimbo_7071]

On 9/26/2021 at 4:40 PM, Aman619 said:

There’s been a lot of criticism of the Promise books. Continued accusations of gift grades and preferential treatment, as you alluded to.  I don’t buy it. 
 

what plenty of people love to do is speculate about this stuff. Again and again. And make comments about what they think is going on.   Of course cause this is the internet where all viewpoints are okay. 
 

I think some of these books challenged grading assumptions at CGC. Perfect bound tight flat shiny GA books with flaws that didn’t come from the usual wear and tear that books in circulation suffered from. CGC decided to allow them. Internet says it was collusion. Has to be cause of overlapping ownership and cause the world is rigged.  
 

we can agree to disagree. Kudos to you for buying them though. Big boy pants indeed!  

 

On 9/26/2021 at 5:38 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

I buy from the Promise Collection, and I try to avoid stuff like this, but I couldn’t disagree with you more.

Here’s a book graded a year ago, knocked down in grade for exactly the things CGC turned a blind eye to in the Promise Collection: dust shadows and publication defects.  
 

Tell me, is this speculation? 

 

I have to agree with @GreatCaesarsGhost, @Aman619. This is the Miss Fury #5, graded 8.0 with a 1" tear on the bottom edge, and edge tears are pretty common defects. I've been buying slabbed books since 2000, and this was the first 8.0 I ever saw with a 1" edge tear.

 

I probably would have graded the book a 5.5.

I really haven't seen any particularly unusual defects.

The Catman 29 had significant wear around the staples, a 3/4" color-breaking vertical stress line along the spine, and noticeable bindery chips at the top and bottom of the spine. The book is a 8.0 all day long, but it's sitting in a 9.6 holder. To be fair, I don't think that all of the books were overgraded that egregiously; that one was one of the worst. However, they received easy grading across the board.

Edited September 26, 2021 by jimbo_7071

[Aman619]

without going over every flaw with you (like that bindery tears often get overlooked) , Id agree that some of the books got higher grades from CGC. Im not blind.That is part of the whole process we have experienced for 20 years. What Im refuting is that there was anything more going on than just CGC being CGC, processing a truckful of "perfect, unread, tight, amazingly rich colors" etc etc, all at once.  We've all experienced "graders fatigue" or "graders blindness" (when we were lucky enough to GET a stack of such pristine looking books). The overgraded books should be sent back to right the wrongs!  harrumph.  

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 9/26/2021 at 5:57 PM, Aman619 said:

you wont like this answer, but I cant grade from a scan. (especially a book that looks flawless in the scan).  CGC doesn't either. Yours is an amazing copy! Crack it out and place it next to a raw Promise book you feel has identical problems.  Call me over and lets compare them carefully under good lights etc like CGC does before we just say you got shafted, or someone else got a gift grade.  I too have a lot of incredibly tight books that got lower grades than I expected.  And also some went higher too.  Graders notes dont list everything either, nor were they intended to. 

I appreciate your level headed answer, but what I'm saying is the Promise Collection was forgiven dust shadow after dust shadow, and publication defect after publication defect.  And this is an absolute 180 for their grading standards from just a year ago.  It's just so odd that I have the grader notes above specifically saying that CGC felt these were defects a year ago.

im still happy the Promise collection is here, as I’ve said many times including earlier in this very string. And I have made my purchases. 
 

but the grading is just different, and that’s not just speculation on my part

Edited September 27, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[tth2]

On 9/26/2021 at 11:17 PM, RareHighGrade said:

My only criticism of the Promise collection is the inexplicably lax grading on several of the books, including keys.  Apart from that, I think it's an incredible collection in terms of overall quality, especially scope and grade.

The more books we see from the collection, the more amazed I am that it was assembled by a kid in school, particularly because of the sheer scope. 

First, that a kid had enough money to buy so many comics. 

Second, that he bought so many different titles, including, most surprisingly, more than a few "girls' comics". Less surprisingly for a boy going through puberty, he did seem to love comics with GGA covers.

Third, that he handled and preserved them so well, in an era when there was no concept of high grade.  This was not an adult like Edgar Church buying everything robotically and storing them unread.  

[Cat-Man_America]

On 9/26/2021 at 6:11 PM, Aman619 said:

without going over every flaw with you (like that bindery tears often get overlooked) , Id agree that some of the books got higher grades from CGC. Im not blind.That is part of the whole process we have experienced for 20 years. What Im refuting is that there was anything more going on than just CGC being CGC, processing a truckful of "perfect, unread, tight, amazingly rich colors" etc etc, all at once.  We've all experienced "graders fatigue" or "graders blindness" (when we were lucky enough to GET a stack of such pristine looking books). The overgraded books should be sent back to right the wrongs!  harrumph.  

 

Naw, there's not enough cost/benefit...   $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

But here's an alternative theory: Try to get everyone to resubmit their new under-graded books for a crack/press and bump upgrade! 

Conversely, what if the CGC has gone full Spinal Tap? ...The new top grade is 11.0  

Edited September 27, 2021 by Cat-Man_America
This is no longer breaking news.

[lou_fine]

On 4/30/2005 at 5:36 PM, action1kid said:

the advertisement said early in 2005

I think that was just a typo and he really meant 2105 since he figured none of us would be around by then to verify if he had made his committment or not.      

I am just glad that I never put an advanced deposit down on the book which they had been asking potential buyers to do.  

[adamstrange]

On 9/26/2021 at 7:11 PM, Aman619 said:

 The overgraded books should be sent back to right the wrongs!  harrumph.  

In the Coin world, there is now a company that certifies the certifier.  You send your slabbed coins to them, and, if they believe the grade is correct, they place their sticker on the case.  Coins that have been doubly certified in this way sell for more.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 9/26/2021 at 8:13 PM, adamstrange said:

In the Coin world, there is now a company that certifies the certifier.  You send your slabbed coins to them, and, if they believe the grade is correct, they place their sticker on the case.  Coins that have been doubly certified in this way sell for more.

That’s interesting. I wonder what circumstances brought that about

[batman_fan]

If I am able to buy one of the Batman, then the Promise collection is awesome but if I do not score one, it is overpriced garbage. 

In a more serious tone, I plan to look at the books I am interested in carefully.  If I think they are accurately graded, I will bid and if I don't think they are graded accurately, I will pass.  I am still looking to try and decide which Batman's I will bid on, there are some that will go for insane prices that I will avoid but some of the 8.5 to 9.2s, I may have a way outside shot at, especially if they aren't a top graded copy.