General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[Sqeggs]

May as well make a ThunderDome thread and get it over with. I know a few members who could post there 24/7 and never leave

 

 

 

 

..... I like things like they are...... I think it would suck if this place became more like eBay ...... I'm not trying to feel like I'm clocking in for a second job every time I have a thread..... but I certainly don't want to anger or disappoint either. GOD BLESS....

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Jimbo, You're a great packer and shipper.

 

At least that's my story until we get a true feedback thread.

[crassus]

The only reason I can think of is because people can post anything at any time no matter if it's true or not. What's stopping someone from leaving a negative comment just because he doesn't like another boardie?Unless mods stepped in, there wouldn't be a way to remove the untrue, negative comment.

 

Presumably, the boardie being criticized would be able to state his side of the story. To avoid an extended back and forth, perhaps we could limit to two the number of posts the buyer and seller would each be allowed on a transaction.

 

We have been around the block on this many times, but I continue to think it's a problem that short of nominating a seller for the PL, there is no way for a buyer to warn other potential buyers of a bad experience with a seller.

 

I think the other view can be summed up as "the medicine will be worse than the disease". Even if you limited the back and forth in the thread, it would be impossible to contain the fallout of any acrimonious exchange. A seller might also feel vulnerable to frivolous and finally arbitrary complaints.

 

Yes, some complaints about grading, shipping and customer service will be fair and valid, but others will not be and imo the whole strength of the restricted PL model is that it is tied to objective conditions of obligation.

 

So "did you or did you not fulfill your stated obligations" is a safer and fairer basis for judgment than "did you or did you not package the books to the specific standards of this particular buyer". Standards vary.

 

[HarveySwick]

Why not come up with a templated 5 Star system similar to eBay that can be found in a stickied post so people can copy and paste it and comment positively if the choose to. Otherwise they'd just post their star feedback.

 

Communication: ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Packaging:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Shipping Time:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Overall:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

 

[Ryan.]

All sales threads should just auto-link to ebay. Problem solved.

[Buzzetta]

I recently bought a book from FD without seeing the scan and I was pleased with the outcome of the transaction.

[seanfingh]

Why not come up with a templated 5 Star system similar to eBay that can be found in a stickied post so people can copy and paste it and comment positively if the choose to. Otherwise they'd just post their star feedback.

 

Communication: ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Packaging:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Shipping Time:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Overall:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

 

Why not suck it, Swick?

[HarveySwick]

[greggy]

Why not come up with a templated 5 Star system similar to eBay that can be found in a stickied post so people can copy and paste it and comment positively if the choose to. Otherwise they'd just post their star feedback.

 

Communication: ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Packaging:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Shipping Time:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

Overall:⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

 

Why not suck it, Swick?

[HarveySwick]

[fastballspecial]

Without commenting on this specific 'spaghetti and meatballs' situation, in general I am seeing the Boards more and more favoring the seller. It seems like a seller can get away with virtually any selling tactic, Pre Sales, no pics, pics but no grades, everything seems to be okay. If a buyer has a bad experience he cannot leave negative feedback, only kudos are allowed. A Board buyer can be the recipient of bad packaging, bad grading, slow shipping, etc. and he has to suck it up and smile.

As mostly a Buyer, I don't like it.

 

While I understand your concerns Bob as long as you are paying with paypal you are still covered.

 

I have seen an uptick with issues I have had with sellers this past 2 years. There are too many new sellers that really either don't grade, don't pack, or don't ship well. Now in my cases each time after I took the time to show the seller the mistake I was able to return the books.

 

To his point above I don't think we should be able to do pre-sales or pre-slabs without the book in hand.

 

I struggle to make a seller have to provide a picture too because a lot of $1 books don't need pics. Because it does chew up a lot of time. I am not sure how to draw the line there.

 

A true feedback system here would be a nightmare for the mods. I think changes to the selling rules is the better route. Maybe a requirement of time as well on this board before you can sell as well. Some sort of concrete return policy in the thread as well.

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Fastballspecial

[crassus]

Without commenting on this specific 'spaghetti and meatballs' situation, in general I am seeing the Boards more and more favoring the seller. It seems like a seller can get away with virtually any selling tactic, Pre Sales, no pics, pics but no grades, everything seems to be okay. If a buyer has a bad experience he cannot leave negative feedback, only kudos are allowed. A Board buyer can be the recipient of bad packaging, bad grading, slow shipping, etc. and he has to suck it up and smile.

As mostly a Buyer, I don't like it.

 

While I understand your concerns Bob as long as you are paying with paypal you are still covered.

 

I have seen an uptick with issues I have had with sellers this past 2 years. There are too many new sellers that really either don't grade, don't pack, or don't ship well. Now in my cases each time after I took the time to show the seller the mistake I was able to return the books.

 

To his point above I don't think we should be able to do pre-sales or pre-slabs without the book in hand.

 

I struggle to make a seller have to provide a picture too because a lot of $1 books don't need pics. Because it does chew up a lot of time. I am not sure how to draw the line there.

 

A true feedback system here would be a nightmare for the mods. I think changes to the selling rules is the better route. Maybe a requirement of time as well on this board before you can sell as well. Some sort of concrete return policy in the thread as well.

 

 

 

I think that is the main problem with the idea of a "true" feedback thread. The other problem is that the community would have to reach a consensus on the rules and regulations governing a true feedback thread, which is imo unlikely. There is a healthy scepticism here about making new rules which will always put the burden of proof on change.

 

We do now have a rule that every sales thread must included a stated return policy. As I remember (maybe incorrectly) the discussions that led to that rule came from a debate over a statute of limitations for the PL itself, and somehow from that we ended up with a rule about return policies. I understand they are related issues, but one is not exactly the same as the other.

 

Ebay feedback is structured and automated. You leave feedback by filling in the fields and there is some limited room for written responses. Even supposing that is what people wanted (and I'm not sure it is exactly) the very architecture of the Boards would have to change.

 

I would also question whether Ebay, with its feedback system, does a better job at protecting buyers. I think bad people have more to fear here than on Ebay.

[Bomber-Bob]

Without commenting on this specific 'spaghetti and meatballs' situation, in general I am seeing the Boards more and more favoring the seller. It seems like a seller can get away with virtually any selling tactic, Pre Sales, no pics, pics but no grades, everything seems to be okay. If a buyer has a bad experience he cannot leave negative feedback, only kudos are allowed. A Board buyer can be the recipient of bad packaging, bad grading, slow shipping, etc. and he has to suck it up and smile.

As mostly a Buyer, I don't like it.

 

While I understand your concerns Bob as long as you are paying with paypal you are still covered.

 

I have seen an uptick with issues I have had with sellers this past 2 years. There are too many new sellers that really either don't grade, don't pack, or don't ship well. Now in my cases each time after I took the time to show the seller the mistake I was able to return the books.

 

To his point above I don't think we should be able to do pre-sales or pre-slabs without the book in hand.

 

I struggle to make a seller have to provide a picture too because a lot of $1 books don't need pics. Because it does chew up a lot of time. I am not sure how to draw the line there.

 

A true feedback system here would be a nightmare for the mods. I think changes to the selling rules is the better route. Maybe a requirement of time as well on this board before you can sell as well. Some sort of concrete return policy in the thread as well.

 

 

 

Thanks for the well thought out, friendly statement.

- I totally agree there is no need for pics of dollar books.

- I think pics should be a requirement on slabs, especially with the new 'Newton effect' in play.

- If pics are not a requirement, then allow I'll Take it Pending scans vs charging an extra 10%.

- I believe in being proactive, rather than reactive, so allowing Negative Feedback is not really appealing to me either. I would much rather leave kudos than complaints.

- Recognizing the Return Policy is now a Rule, it is often ignored with no enforcement.

[miraclemet]

I wonder...

 

1. Does CGC view this board as an asset to generating revenue?

2. Do they have any influence/interest in the rules of the marketplace here?

 

cause if both answers are yes then I think they'd be in favor of allowing pre-sales.

 

Presales (from my observation) allow those who keep a constant churn of submission to repeat the cycle sooner, and that likely accumulates into additional submissions per year.

 

So they want presales, cause they know presales lead to more submissions, and faster. Especially in the modern realm.

 

Also in the modern realm presales on a hot items are probably a matter of getting top dollar, vs missing the peak value.

 

Also for some books, you want to get to market first, thus presale is the way to go. \

 

Note, I do none of these, never sell a book in which a presale would be of any value, and have never bought a presale book.. but this is the internet, none of that precludes me from having (and stating) an opinion!

 

[MustEatBrains]

I've heard too many horror stories of things going sideways when people pre-sell without books in hand. I personally stay clear of this both as a buyer and a seller.

 

 

[Buzzetta]

I think there is a difference between pre-sales as far as signing opportunities and books that are en route.

 

Presale signing opportunities are a gamble because you truly do not know if the grades will reach the tier that was advertised and that you paid for. As far as I am concerned this is akin to the mystery bags that have been banned. The seller is advertising a number of books that may or may not come back as advertised in the sales thread.

 

Books that are en route have confirmed grades and are individual to that order. If someone says, "I have a ASM 300 9.8 on it's way back from CGC" then the buyer knows exactly what they are getting and are spending their money on something that is individual to their purchase.

[MetalPSI]

I think there is a difference between pre-sales as far as signing opportunities and books that are en route.

 

Presale signing opportunities are a gamble because you truly do not know if the grades will reach the tier that was advertised and that you paid for. As far as I am concerned this is akin to the mystery bags that have been banned. The seller is advertising a number of books that may or may not come back as advertised in the sales thread.

 

Books that are en route have confirmed grades and are individual to that order. If someone says, "I have a ASM 300 9.8 on it's way back from CGC" then the buyer knows exactly what they are getting and are spending their money on something that is individual to their purchase.

 

I've ordered my first SS exclusive. Will it arrive at 9.8, who can say? I am sure facilitators work with their clients to an agreeable result.

[Ryan.]

If facilitators are selling 9.8s for upcoming SS signings then buyers are receiving 9.8s.

[HighRadArt]

Without commenting on this specific 'spaghetti and meatballs' situation, in general I am seeing the Boards more and more favoring the seller. It seems like a seller can get away with virtually any selling tactic, Pre Sales, no pics, pics but no grades, everything seems to be okay. If a buyer has a bad experience he cannot leave negative feedback, only kudos are allowed. A Board buyer can be the recipient of bad packaging, bad grading, slow shipping, etc. and he has to suck it up and smile.

As mostly a Buyer, I don't like it.

 

While I understand your concerns Bob as long as you are paying with paypal you are still covered.

 

I have seen an uptick with issues I have had with sellers this past 2 years. There are too many new sellers that really either don't grade, don't pack, or don't ship well. Now in my cases each time after I took the time to show the seller the mistake I was able to return the books.

 

To his point above I don't think we should be able to do pre-sales or pre-slabs without the book in hand.

 

I struggle to make a seller have to provide a picture too because a lot of $1 books don't need pics. Because it does chew up a lot of time. I am not sure how to draw the line there.

 

A true feedback system here would be a nightmare for the mods. I think changes to the selling rules is the better route. Maybe a requirement of time as well on this board before you can sell as well. Some sort of concrete return policy in the thread as well.

 

 

 

Thanks for the well thought out, friendly statement.

- I totally agree there is no need for pics of dollar books.

- I think pics should be a requirement on slabs, especially with the new 'Newton effect' in play.

- If pics are not a requirement, then allow I'll Take it Pending scans vs charging an extra 10%.

- I believe in being proactive, rather than reactive, so allowing Negative Feedback is not really appealing to me either. I would much rather leave kudos than complaints.

- Recognizing the Return Policy is now a Rule, it is often ignored with no enforcement.

 

These are all good points and I would add that if a buyer has an issue with a seller they can go the probation route. It's not perfect but It carries more weight than a negative feedback system.

[seanfingh]

I think there is a difference between pre-sales as far as signing opportunities and books that are en route.

 

Presale signing opportunities are a gamble because you truly do not know if the grades will reach the tier that was advertised and that you paid for. As far as I am concerned this is akin to the mystery bags that have been banned. The seller is advertising a number of books that may or may not come back as advertised in the sales thread.

 

 

In this instance, you need to have a clear understanding of what the terms are.

 

Many people offer guaranteed 9.8 pre-sale signed books. If you don't get a 9.8 then you haven't gotten what you paid for. You are entitled to a refund, at very least.

 

Others will say "I have 10 NM/NM+ books" and if you order one, you get whatever they come back. That is dicier. What if some come back 8.5 or 9.0? That is nowhere near NM/NM+

 

But under no circumstances on that pre-sale are you entitled to a 9.8.

 

If you want a guaranteed grade, negotiate for a guaranteed grade. Otherwise, you get what you get.

[MetalPSI]

I think there is a difference between pre-sales as far as signing opportunities and books that are en route.

 

Presale signing opportunities are a gamble because you truly do not know if the grades will reach the tier that was advertised and that you paid for. As far as I am concerned this is akin to the mystery bags that have been banned. The seller is advertising a number of books that may or may not come back as advertised in the sales thread.

 

 

In this instance, you need to have a clear understanding of what the terms are.

 

Many people offer guaranteed 9.8 pre-sale signed books. If you don't get a 9.8 then you haven't gotten what you paid for. You are entitled to a refund, at very least.

 

Others will say "I have 10 NM/NM+ books" and if you order one, you get whatever they come back. That is dicier. What if some come back 8.5 or 9.0? That is nowhere near NM/NM+

 

But under no circumstances on that pre-sale are you entitled to a 9.8.

 

If you want a guaranteed grade, negotiate for a guaranteed grade. Otherwise, you get what you get.

 

That's how I see it. You get what you get. And on the SS, what if the person who is signing pen explodes?