General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[Turtle]

Something I've wondered for a while...maybe someone can enlighten me.

 

Why is it expected (and required) to accept returns on CGC'd books for practically any reason when selling on ebay but when sellers here were required to state a return policy per board rules, most state that they don't accept returns on graded books?

 

I tend to hold sellers here on the boards, especially established ones, to a higher standard. When compared to ebay, I'm expecting tighter grading, better photos, and better packaging among other things. The vast majority of the time, the seller meets/exceeds those expectations. That's why it's even more surprising that it seems ebay sellers are superior in the return policy department. On the surface, it would appear that ebay sellers are more likely to stand by what they're selling than board members here.

 

Again, I realize that ebay requires sellers to accept returns. I also realize that most sellers here would accept a return despite their stated return policy if a genuine issue arose.

 

So why, when given the choice, do so many sellers here opt to allow ebay to have a superior return policy when board sellers are often superior in every other way?

 

 

 

 

[jsilverjanet]

why should the expectation just rest on the seller and not the buyer?

 

I expect the buyer here to know what the graded book is, i.e., the grade determined by CGC. That's not necessarily the case with some of the buyers on eBay.

 

I've had returns on ebay because of the opening on the side or the waviness of the label. I don't expect that here. I except the buyer here to know of the puddles, newton rings etc.

 

Returns on graded books will always be accepted due to damage from shipping (or at least from me) and I'll consider returns if you don't agree with the grade, that being said I provide pretty good scans and have notes available if the buyer would like them. I also disclose any pressing etc. So with that information I find it hard to accept a return because the buyer changed their mind etc.

 

At some point the responsibility is as much with the buyer as it is with the seller.

 

[grebal]

. . .

So why, when given the choice, do so many sellers here opt to allow ebay to have a superior return policy when board sellers are often superior in every other way?

Ebay coddles buyers.

 

A savvy buyer always has an out through ebay, if they carefully limit the reason for their return (or canceled transaction) to "I did not buy that, it was a mistake," or "it was different than I thought," etc.

 

It's a cost of selling on ebay. Even if ebay seller wanted (and adopted) policy of "no returns on CGC books," such a policy is practically meaningless since the buyer will find a way to return the book. Sellers still state in ebay listings "no returns" but practically all the bidders seem to have figured out that it's an unenforceable policy if they play it right (paypal protection, with perhaps some lying, is the ebay buyer's province).

 

Here it's basically the frontier with a few basic rules.

[Turtle]

why should the expectation just rest on the seller and not the buyer?

 

I expect the buyer here to know what the graded book is, i.e., the grade determined by CGC. That's not necessarily the case with some of the buyers on eBay.

 

I've had returns on ebay because of the opening on the side or the waviness of the label. I don't expect that here. I except the buyer here to know of the puddles, newton rings etc.

 

Returns on graded books will always be accepted due to damage from shipping (or at least from me) and I'll consider returns if you don't agree with the grade, that being said I provide pretty good scans and have notes available if the buyer would like them. I also disclose any pressing etc. So with that information I find it hard to accept a return because the buyer changed their mind etc.

 

At some point the responsibility is as much with the buyer as it is with the seller.

 

When compared to ebay, I also hold the buyers here to a higher standard when selling here. That expectation isn't just on the seller.

 

Like you mentioned, when I sell here I think the chance is slim that someone will initiate a return on a book due to the waviness of the label or any other random small issue that is a non-issue to those who spend time around slabs. I expect the base knowledge of CGC slabs to be higher among buyers here than buyers on ebay.

 

If anything, this would make me MORE prone to list a reasonable return policy. I'm sure sellers on ebay would LOVE to just say "no returns" and not have to deal with uninformed buyers, but ebay won't allow that. Why then, when given a choice to be better and when working with a more informed buying pool, would a good seller state "no returns" here?

 

Like you said, returns on damaged slabs will be accepted and considered in the event of a disagreement with the assigned grade. So why not state something to that effect instead of "no returns". Laziness?

[Turtle]

. . .

So why, when given the choice, do so many sellers here opt to allow ebay to have a superior return policy when board sellers are often superior in every other way?

Ebay coddles buyers.

 

A savvy buyer always has an out through ebay, if they carefully limit the reason for their return (or canceled transaction) to "I did not buy that, it was a mistake," or "it was different than I thought," etc.

 

It's a cost of selling on ebay. Even if ebay seller wanted (and adopted) policy of "no returns on CGC books," such a policy is practically meaningless since the buyer will find a way to return the book. Sellers still state in ebay listings "no returns" but practically all the bidders seem to have figured out that it's an unenforceable policy if they play it right (paypal protection, with perhaps some lying, is the ebay buyer's province).

 

Here it's basically the frontier with a few basic rules.

 

I agree with everything you've said...

 

It just doesn't address my question.

[seanfingh]

why should the expectation just rest on the seller and not the buyer?

 

I expect the buyer here to know what the graded book is, i.e., the grade determined by CGC. That's not necessarily the case with some of the buyers on eBay.

 

I've had returns on ebay because of the opening on the side or the waviness of the label. I don't expect that here. I except the buyer here to know of the puddles, newton rings etc.

 

Returns on graded books will always be accepted due to damage from shipping (or at least from me) and I'll consider returns if you don't agree with the grade, that being said I provide pretty good scans and have notes available if the buyer would like them. I also disclose any pressing etc. So with that information I find it hard to accept a return because the buyer changed their mind etc.

 

At some point the responsibility is as much with the buyer as it is with the seller.

 

When compared to ebay, I also hold the buyers here to a higher standard when selling here. That expectation isn't just on the seller.

 

Like you mentioned, when I sell here I think the chance is slim that someone will initiate a return on a book due to the waviness of the label or any other random small issue that is a non-issue to those who spend time around slabs. I expect the base knowledge of CGC slabs to be higher among buyers here than buyers on ebay.

 

If anything, this would make me MORE prone to list a reasonable return policy. I'm sure sellers on ebay would LOVE to just say "no returns" and not have to deal with uninformed buyers, but ebay won't allow that. Why then, when given a choice to be better and when working with a more informed buying pool, would a good seller state "no returns" here?

 

Like you said, returns on damaged slabs will be accepted and considered in the event of a disagreement with the assigned grade. So why not state something to that effect instead of "no returns". Laziness?

 

When the return policy became mandatory, i toyed with the idea of having a no-return policy. The reason was simplicity, finality, and yes, laziness.

 

After I thought about it, I went the other way and formalized a no questions asked any-time return policy. It is just as simple. I have sold a lot of books on here, and I don't think I have never had one returned.

[Ryan.]

As a seller, the forced stated return policies here are essentially immaterial to me. While I would be annoyed if a buyer wanted to return a slab due to buyer's remorse or an amorphous dissatisfaction with the book, I would never force a buyer to keep a purchased book he or she didn't want. Within reason, of course. I once accepted a return two years after the transaction completed*. Not that I want that to become standard but I'm always willing to have a conversation.

 

 

 

*ugh

[grebal]

. . .

So why, when given the choice, do so many sellers here opt to allow ebay to have a superior return policy when board sellers are often superior in every other way?

Ebay coddles buyers.

 

A savvy buyer always has an out through ebay, if they carefully limit the reason for their return (or canceled transaction) to "I did not buy that, it was a mistake," or "it was different than I thought," etc.

 

It's a cost of selling on ebay. Even if ebay seller wanted (and adopted) policy of "no returns on CGC books," such a policy is practically meaningless since the buyer will find a way to return the book. Sellers still state in ebay listings "no returns" but practically all the bidders seem to have figured out that it's an unenforceable policy if they play it right (paypal protection, with perhaps some lying, is the ebay buyer's province).

 

Here it's basically the frontier with a few basic rules.

 

I agree with everything you've said...

 

It just doesn't address my question.

 

Okay, I'll try a different vector: why do dogs lick their balls?

[MustEatBrains]

. . .

So why, when given the choice, do so many sellers here opt to allow ebay to have a superior return policy when board sellers are often superior in every other way?

Ebay coddles buyers.

 

A savvy buyer always has an out through ebay, if they carefully limit the reason for their return (or canceled transaction) to "I did not buy that, it was a mistake," or "it was different than I thought," etc.

 

It's a cost of selling on ebay. Even if ebay seller wanted (and adopted) policy of "no returns on CGC books," such a policy is practically meaningless since the buyer will find a way to return the book. Sellers still state in ebay listings "no returns" but practically all the bidders seem to have figured out that it's an unenforceable policy if they play it right (paypal protection, with perhaps some lying, is the ebay buyer's province).

 

Here it's basically the frontier with a few basic rules.

 

I agree with everything you've said...

 

It just doesn't address my question.

 

Okay, I'll try a different vector: why do dogs lick their balls?

 

Simple. Because they can.

[thecopperagekids]

As a seller, the forced stated return policies here are essentially immaterial to me. While I would be annoyed if a buyer wanted to return a slab due to buyer's remorse or an amorphous dissatisfaction with the book, I would never force a buyer to keep a purchased book he or she didn't want. Within reason, of course. I once accepted a return two years after the transaction completed*. Not that I want that to become standard but I'm always willing to have a conversation.

 

 

 

*ugh

 

How and why did you ever accept a return on a slab after 2 years?

 

What was the book?

 

 

[Ryan.]

As a seller, the forced stated return policies here are essentially immaterial to me. While I would be annoyed if a buyer wanted to return a slab due to buyer's remorse or an amorphous dissatisfaction with the book, I would never force a buyer to keep a purchased book he or she didn't want. Within reason, of course. I once accepted a return two years after the transaction completed*. Not that I want that to become standard but I'm always willing to have a conversation.

 

 

 

*ugh

 

How and why did you ever accept a return on a slab after 2 years?

 

What was the book?

 

 

It wasn't a slab when I sold it. It was a multiple thousand dollar book though that, when slabbed two years later, came back showing that the book was trimmed. I missed it and the buyer missed it. Maybe the trimming was there when I sold it, maybe it happened in the two years it was out of my possession. Either way, I just took the book back.

[Turtle]

When the return policy became mandatory, i toyed with the idea of having a no-return policy. The reason was simplicity, finality, and yes, laziness.

 

After I thought about it, I went the other way and formalized a no questions asked any-time return policy. It is just as simple. I have sold a lot of books on here, and I don't think I have never had one returned.

 

YES!!!

 

This is exactly my line of thinking. I don't remember ever having to have a book returned when selling here on the boards. I would think such a practice is FAR more rare here than on ebay.

 

I've seen countless posts poking fun at crazy ebay listings, often citing a "no returns" policy written into the description. The reaction to this description is generally "Pssh...good luck with that!". In my mind, the humor in a "no returns" policy is that any good seller should not be immovable when it comes to returns...stating a policy to the contrary immediately casts the seller in a bad light (to me, anyway).

 

Yet there are plenty of listings in the sales forums right now that state "no returns on graded books" or something to that effect. Don't sellers here want to be better than ebay?

 

 

[Turtle]

. . .

So why, when given the choice, do so many sellers here opt to allow ebay to have a superior return policy when board sellers are often superior in every other way?

Ebay coddles buyers.

 

A savvy buyer always has an out through ebay, if they carefully limit the reason for their return (or canceled transaction) to "I did not buy that, it was a mistake," or "it was different than I thought," etc.

 

It's a cost of selling on ebay. Even if ebay seller wanted (and adopted) policy of "no returns on CGC books," such a policy is practically meaningless since the buyer will find a way to return the book. Sellers still state in ebay listings "no returns" but practically all the bidders seem to have figured out that it's an unenforceable policy if they play it right (paypal protection, with perhaps some lying, is the ebay buyer's province).

 

Here it's basically the frontier with a few basic rules.

 

I agree with everything you've said...

 

It just doesn't address my question.

 

Okay, I'll try a different vector: why do dogs lick their balls?

 

Strike two

[EC ed]

 

Okay, I'll try a different vector: why do dogs lick their balls?

 

Strike two

 

Turtle, this (combined with grebal's first response) does answer your question.

 

Why do some sellers here choose a return policy that is not as "good" as the standard eBay return policy? BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

I'm not saying "because they can" in the sense that some sellers here are taking advantage of something...it's not like that at all. What I mean by "because they can" has been alluded to by other posters: one of the beauties of selling books here on the boards is that, as a seller, I can choose to sell books how I see fit (subject to a basic bare minimum rules structure). This includes holding BUYERS to a higher standard than I'm able to on eBay. Another beauty of the system is that if you as a buyer don't want to be held to that standard, you don't have to buy my book.

 

(for this discussion, I'm using "I", "you", "my", "your", etc., in the royal sense, of course...)

 

That is, if I want to use a "no return" policy, I'm holding buyers to the following standard: don't buy my book unless you are sure you want it, and you aren't going to be able to return it to me for any -and-bull reason that you want to, like you could on eBay. I love that there is the ability here to hold buyers to a higher standard...especially since we're not all comic dealers...I'm just an average Joe who wants to sell books I no longer collect to other collectors and then move on with my life. (while saying this, note that I offer a return policy for both raw and slabbed books when I have sales threads here...but that's my choice, and that's beside the point for purposes of this philosophical discussion)

 

Have you ever hosted a garage sale? If so, do you offer your buyers a return policy? Like...if I come to your garage sale and buy your used pair of sneakers for $10, will you give me a money-back return policy? If not, WHY? Why would you choose to have an inferior return policy on something you're selling relative to some eBay seller who is selling used shoes with a 14-day return policy?

[seanfingh]

 

Okay, I'll try a different vector: why do dogs lick their balls?

 

Strike two

 

Turtle, this (combined with grebal's first response) does answer your question.

 

Why do some sellers here choose a return policy that is not as "good" as the standard eBay return policy? BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

I'm not saying "because they can" in the sense that some sellers here are taking advantage of something...it's not like that at all. What I mean by "because they can" has been alluded to by other posters: one of the beauties of selling books here on the boards is that, as a seller, I can choose to sell books how I see fit (subject to a basic bare minimum rules structure). This includes holding BUYERS to a higher standard than I'm able to on eBay. Another beauty of the system is that if you as a buyer don't want to be held to that standard, you don't have to buy my book.

 

(for this discussion, I'm using "I", "you", "my", "your", etc., in the royal sense, of course...)

 

That is, if I want to use a "no return" policy, I'm holding buyers to the following standard: don't buy my book unless you are sure you want it, and you aren't going to be able to return it to me for any -and-bull reason that you want to, like you could on eBay. I love that there is the ability here to hold buyers to a higher standard...especially since we're not all comic dealers...I'm just an average Joe who wants to sell books I no longer collect to other collectors and then move on with my life. (while saying this, note that I offer a return policy for both raw and slabbed books when I have sales threads here...but that's my choice, and that's beside the point for purposes of this philosophical discussion)

 

Have you ever hosted a garage sale? If so, do you offer your buyers a return policy? Like...if I come to your garage sale and buy your used pair of sneakers for $10, will you give me a money-back return policy? If not, WHY? Why would you choose to have an inferior return policy on something you're selling relative to some eBay seller who is selling used shoes with a 14-day return policy?

 

Ed, per the norm your comment is logical and well-thought out. I think the disconnect for many of us on this is that the massive marketplace that this place has become is built on the infrastructure of a small community of like-minded collectors. Not a massive consumer platform like EBay.

 

For many of us, there have been more and more rules added, and the marketplace has become less and less friendly, and more and more mercenary. Now, I am neither waxing nostalgic nor longing for the halcyon days of the past, but what I am saying is a reality for many of us. Case point, as it relates to Adam (Turtle) - I would send him a book before he paid, let him return anything, work any type of time payment that he wanted. I know him, and we have spent time together.

 

So to sum up, from a commercial standpoint, you are exactly right. Why not hold buyers to the highest standard possible? That is the way that business works. But scratch under the surface of the massive commercial marketplace this place has become, and you will find a lot of guys who have shed the same comic blood in the same comic mud, to borrow a war movie analogy.

[EC ed]

I think the disconnect for many of us on this is that the massive marketplace that this place has become is built on the infrastructure of a small community of like-minded collectors.

 

I lament the fact that this place has drifted away from that community-based foundation.

 

I think this actually reinforces my point. Suppose the place was still a small community of like-minded collectors who have bled the same blood, etc. Then, there would be no need for any stated return policy...or, if you wanted to state one, make it indefinite, no questions asked....because it would go without saying that we would take care of each other, and no one (buyer or seller) would be trying to pull any funny business.

 

It is precisely the fact that this place has drifted away from this that the option (should someone choose it) to state "no returns" as a policy has become a valuable option. A person can state "no returns on slabs" to "protect" themselves against that latest Instagram-type twerp that has stumbled over here. Even if that's my policy, if a like minded buddy is interested in my slab, I can always tell him via PM that if he isn't thrilled with it, send it back,etc. I can always be more generous than my stated return policy on an individual basis, right?

[jimjum12]

I think the disconnect for many of us on this is that the massive marketplace that this place has become is built on the infrastructure of a small community of like-minded collectors.

 

I lament the fact that this place has drifted away from that community-based foundation.

 

I think this actually reinforces my point. Suppose the place was still a small community of like-minded collectors who have bled the same blood, etc. Then, there would be no need for any stated return policy...or, if you wanted to state one, make it indefinite, no questions asked....because it would go without saying that we would take care of each other, and no one (buyer or seller) would be trying to pull any funny business.

 

It is precisely the fact that this place has drifted away from this that the option (should someone choose it) to state "no returns" as a policy has become a valuable option. A person can state "no returns on slabs" to "protect" themselves against that latest Instagram-type twerp that has stumbled over here. Even if that's my policy, if a like minded buddy is interested in my slab, I can always tell him via PM that if he isn't thrilled with it, send it back,etc. I can always be more generous than my stated return policy on an individual basis, right?

 

I've always allowed a 2 week return on slabs..... mainly because as a buyer myself, I've bought slabs that had problems I didn't see in the scan, or grading I didn't agree with. Like Ed, my policy isn't set in stone and I've taken returns well outside the 2 week window, especially for folks I know aren't trying to "play" me. With myself, I know whether I want to keep a book within a few days of receiving it, so two weeks is more than enough.... and it's my feeling that it should be plenty of time for anyone else as well. One difference about this place as opposed to more traditional sales venues is that many of us are still collectors and sell books to buy others, or to catch up on some bills..... so keeping the sale "up in the air" for 180 days is not going to work. We need the money now.... to spend. There is no massive pool of capital to subsidize "customer service" while unscrupulous collectors use us as an impromptu escrow service to facilitate their upgrading process or their search for undergraded or pressable books...... you know, requesting a return for a scratched slab when the reality is that an upgrade or cheaper option has been found. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[comix4fun]

I think the disconnect for many of us on this is that the massive marketplace that this place has become is built on the infrastructure of a small community of like-minded collectors.

 

I lament the fact that this place has drifted away from that community-based foundation.

 

I think this actually reinforces my point. Suppose the place was still a small community of like-minded collectors who have bled the same blood, etc. Then, there would be no need for any stated return policy...or, if you wanted to state one, make it indefinite, no questions asked....because it would go without saying that we would take care of each other, and no one (buyer or seller) would be trying to pull any funny business.

 

It is precisely the fact that this place has drifted away from this that the option (should someone choose it) to state "no returns" as a policy has become a valuable option. A person can state "no returns on slabs" to "protect" themselves against that latest Instagram-type twerp that has stumbled over here. Even if that's my policy, if a like minded buddy is interested in my slab, I can always tell him via PM that if he isn't thrilled with it, send it back,etc. I can always be more generous than my stated return policy on an individual basis, right?

 

 

 

I've been here since near the beginning. It was never like that. It would have been great if it was, but it wasn't. This community is made up of a pretty good cross section of what you find in the greater collecting community (actually the planet earth, not just the collecting community). It's still, at it's heart, commerce. For every good buddy, friend, like-minded, community-oriented, good guy you encounter there will be at least one looking at how he can get the better end.

 

Lots of good people here, but it's an open community. Even when it was small there were guys who would find the fastest way possible to abuse an indefinite, no questions asked, return policy.

[Turtle]

 

Okay, I'll try a different vector: why do dogs lick their balls?

 

Strike two

 

Turtle, this (combined with grebal's first response) does answer your question.

 

Why do some sellers here choose a return policy that is not as "good" as the standard eBay return policy? BECAUSE THEY CAN.

 

I'm not saying "because they can" in the sense that some sellers here are taking advantage of something...it's not like that at all. What I mean by "because they can" has been alluded to by other posters: one of the beauties of selling books here on the boards is that, as a seller, I can choose to sell books how I see fit (subject to a basic bare minimum rules structure). This includes holding BUYERS to a higher standard than I'm able to on eBay. Another beauty of the system is that if you as a buyer don't want to be held to that standard, you don't have to buy my book.

 

(for this discussion, I'm using "I", "you", "my", "your", etc., in the royal sense, of course...)

 

That is, if I want to use a "no return" policy, I'm holding buyers to the following standard: don't buy my book unless you are sure you want it, and you aren't going to be able to return it to me for any -and-bull reason that you want to, like you could on eBay. I love that there is the ability here to hold buyers to a higher standard...especially since we're not all comic dealers...I'm just an average Joe who wants to sell books I no longer collect to other collectors and then move on with my life. (while saying this, note that I offer a return policy for both raw and slabbed books when I have sales threads here...but that's my choice, and that's beside the point for purposes of this philosophical discussion)

 

Have you ever hosted a garage sale? If so, do you offer your buyers a return policy? Like...if I come to your garage sale and buy your used pair of sneakers for $10, will you give me a money-back return policy? If not, WHY? Why would you choose to have an inferior return policy on something you're selling relative to some eBay seller who is selling used shoes with a 14-day return policy?

 

Thanks for the well thought-out response.

 

I would suggest that the statements made are indicative of NOT holding buyers to a higher standard. Of course if a buyer doesn't agree to your terms, they don't have to purchase your item. The same is true anywhere. However, stating "you aren't going to be able to return it to me for any -and-bull reason" tells me that the expectation is that you're going to have to deal with the types of buyers would do this. This indicates to me that you're treating buyers here the same way you'd treat them on ebay. At best, you're holding buyers here to the SAME standard as your typical ebay buyer.

 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting return policies should be indefinite. I think the standard policy I use here allows for two weeks after receipt.

 

Finally, I have never hosted a garage sale, but I take your point. My answer to your question is "no, I wouldn't accept a return on a used item purchased at a garage sale" with few exceptions. The differences between the garage sale setting an the online forum to me is the 1) community aspect and 2) the fact that in a forum sale, you can't physically inspect the item you're purchasing before actually paying for it and having it delivered.

 

I think a more fair comparison would be a seller set up at a show to sell graded books vs. selling here. If a buyer is trying to buy a graded book and can inspect it in-hand before deciding to purchase, I'm not sure what possible scenario would exist for the buyer to then ask for a refund down the road. In this case, I would say "no returns" could be justified.

 

But when it comes to selling on this forum, a buyer doesn't have the luxury of inspecting it in-hand. They will not always be able to tell how true the colors are or if they truly agree with the assigned grade until it's in-hand. Add that to the fact that most buyers here won't return a book for a silly reason and I see far more reasons for including a reasonable return policy than just stating "no returns".

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

The transformation of comic books into the mainstream is, as always, a double-edged sword.

 

When the market crashes, the people who are only in it for the money...some of you reading this right now...go away and seek opportunities elsewhere, and it becomes easier (less expensive) to obtain quality things.

 

But...when comics are popular, the people who are only in it for the money help to create an environment where one can be rather successful selling items they purchased 10, 20, 30 years ago.

 

Stability and sobriety is lacking.