General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[vaillant]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading I can clearly see in the auctions that were linked. I do have some trouble believing that the Chip who can match CGC grade for grade in the grading contest would grade the FF 74 with multiple BC water stains a 7.0, and the sub-creased DD 7 a 5.0, and so forth. But I agree that there's no capital offense here; we can all make up our own minds and move on.

 

Anyone who claims that he is "supporting his family" on his comic sales will tend to stretch his grading skills beyond their limit. Fact of life. Not my cup of tea.

 

What is "not your cup of tea"? "Stretching one's grading skills" (whatever that means) or claiming publicly that you are "supporting your family" with the comics sales?

 

Really curious david, because your "grin" emoticon does not help at all in these cases…

[Green]

Hello everyone,

 

In the Giving Tree thread, I posted the grade the ST #115 had received when it was put in the PGM section previous to me purchasing it (which consensus-wise was a 4.0 average). I didn't agree with that grade when I got the book in-hand (I usually disagree with the PGM grading) but as to not cause trouble here on the CGC forum that's the grade I quoted when people inquired. People have had it out for me in that thread since the beginning so I didn't want to rock the boat.

 

Regarding my eBay sales, I grade the best I can when putting up several hundred comics each week. I offer a no-questions-asked 14-day return policy where I even pay the return shipping if anyone isn't satisfied for any reason (including the book's grade). I am a Top-Rated Power Seller on there with nearly $100,000 in sales over the past 12 months (nearly all raw comics). I have 99.7% positive feedback (over 500 this month alone) and high Detailed Seller Ratings across the board (including "Item As Described"). If someone isn't satisfied with a grade on any book they purchase I have them return it and I re-evaluate my grade before I re-list. Nearly all of the time I will inquire exactly what the buyer thought was wrong in my grading so I can improve.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

 

I call that the DannyD special. Bump the grades as high as possible and hope they dont return'em! He had 100% feedback tho.

[divad]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading I can clearly see in the auctions that were linked. I do have some trouble believing that the Chip who can match CGC grade for grade in the grading contest would grade the FF 74 with multiple BC water stains a 7.0, and the sub-creased DD 7 a 5.0, and so forth. But I agree that there's no capital offense here; we can all make up our own minds and move on.

 

Anyone who claims that he is "supporting his family" on his comic sales will tend to stretch his grading skills beyond their limit. Fact of life. Not my cup of tea.

 

What is "not your cup of tea"? "Stretching one's grading skills" (whatever that means) or claiming publicly that you are "supporting your family" with the comics sales?

 

Really curious david, because your "grin" emoticon does not help at all in these cases…

 

The words in my post mean exactly what they were chosen to mean. I believe that the only thing you don't understand is the grin, which is meaningless by definition.

[divad]

Hello everyone,

 

In the Giving Tree thread, I posted the grade the ST #115 had received when it was put in the PGM section previous to me purchasing it (which consensus-wise was a 4.0 average). I didn't agree with that grade when I got the book in-hand (I usually disagree with the PGM grading) but as to not cause trouble here on the CGC forum that's the grade I quoted when people inquired. People have had it out for me in that thread since the beginning so I didn't want to rock the boat.

 

Regarding my eBay sales, I grade the best I can when putting up several hundred comics each week. I offer a no-questions-asked 14-day return policy where I even pay the return shipping if anyone isn't satisfied for any reason (including the book's grade). I am a Top-Rated Power Seller on there with nearly $100,000 in sales over the past 12 months (nearly all raw comics). I have 99.7% positive feedback (over 500 this month alone) and high Detailed Seller Ratings across the board (including "Item As Described"). If someone isn't satisfied with a grade on any book they purchase I have them return it and I re-evaluate my grade before I re-list. Nearly all of the time I will inquire exactly what the buyer thought was wrong in my grading so I can improve.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

 

I call that the DannyD special. Bump the grades as high as possible and hope they dont return'em! He had 100% feedback tho.

 

Precisely. At least (as far as we know) he doesn't trim his books.

[Boboset]

ANGRY MOB (for 50 pages): "Burn him! We have all the information!"

 

CHIP (1 post): "I disagreed with the grade."

 

ANGRY MOB: "Oh." (sheepishly looks at feet...walks away dejected)

 

 

 

 

Chip nicely covered his bases with his response. I said mine and I still believe in the information I posted. That was good enough for me. For fear of being labeled as sheepish or dejected, I will post my additional doubts and a question.

 

I thought the response looked coached. In addition, the day+ discussion provided detailed hypothetical explanations, he watched all of it unfold, read every response and engaged others via PM long before responding here. That provided him with all the information to select the most favorable defense. That's what I think happened.

 

I still don't understand why Chip would continue posting PGM thread after PGM thread if he so strongly disagreed with all of the grades/graders. I looked at the last 28 examples but his PGM thread start count was likely closer to 100+. Out of the 28 examples I looked at, Chip deemed all but one of them undergraded with an ebay overall 1.0 grade bump, and a 1.57 bump when you exclude .2 grade increment examples. That's a sizable disagreement through many examples. Why continue creating PGM threads?

[Green]

Hello everyone,

 

In the Giving Tree thread, I posted the grade the ST #115 had received when it was put in the PGM section previous to me purchasing it (which consensus-wise was a 4.0 average). I didn't agree with that grade when I got the book in-hand (I usually disagree with the PGM grading) but as to not cause trouble here on the CGC forum that's the grade I quoted when people inquired. People have had it out for me in that thread since the beginning so I didn't want to rock the boat.

 

Regarding my eBay sales, I grade the best I can when putting up several hundred comics each week. I offer a no-questions-asked 14-day return policy where I even pay the return shipping if anyone isn't satisfied for any reason (including the book's grade). I am a Top-Rated Power Seller on there with nearly $100,000 in sales over the past 12 months (nearly all raw comics). I have 99.7% positive feedback (over 500 this month alone) and high Detailed Seller Ratings across the board (including "Item As Described"). If someone isn't satisfied with a grade on any book they purchase I have them return it and I re-evaluate my grade before I re-list. Nearly all of the time I will inquire exactly what the buyer thought was wrong in my grading so I can improve.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

 

I call that the DannyD special. Bump the grades as high as possible and hope they dont return'em! He had 100% feedback tho.

 

Precisely. At least (as far as we know) he doesn't trim his books.

 

I kinda wish i would have went with "Dupcak Dance"

[vaillant]

What is "not your cup of tea"? "Stretching one's grading skills" (whatever that means) or claiming publicly that you are "supporting your family" with the comics sales?

 

Really curious david, because your "grin" emoticon does not help at all in these cases…

 

The words in my post mean exactly what they were chosen to mean. I believe that the only thing you don't understand is the grin, which is meaningless by definition.

 

That is ridiculous. You have seen what I have asked, and your post is not intelligible as you think it is. If you want to reply, good, otherwise I think I will pretty much skip your "smart" posts from now on.

 

I do agree with Bobo, but mostly because if I am convinced of a grade, that is the grade I believe it applies. When I post in the PGM is when I want to fine-tune it or have doubts I am either undergrading or overgrading.

[Columbia Comics]

I think the DD comparison is pretty far off and frankly, rather rude.

 

Essentially saying someone is the same as a well known criminal....that just doesn't sit well in my boat.

 

 

[Logan510]

I think the DD comparison is pretty far off and frankly, rather rude.

 

Essentially saying someone is the same as a well known criminal....that just doesn't sit well in my boat.

 

 

It may be rude, but aside from the trimming, the business model is not too far off. Overgrade, but have an awesome return policy. Hope enough people who don't know how to grade well buy your books and are satisfied.

[HarveySwick]

I think the DD comparison is pretty far off and frankly, rather rude.

 

Essentially saying someone is the same as a well known criminal....that just doesn't sit well in my boat.

 

 

It may be rude, but aside from the trimming, the business model is not too far off. Overgrade, but have an awesome return policy. Hope enough people who don't know how to grade well buy your books and are satisfied.

 

That's how I see it. It shouldn't be interpreted to mean that people are walking away dejected simply because they haven't commented after Chip's post. I think Chip handled it very diplomatically and said the right things with his response. As bobo stated, he had a day and a half to write and edit his response with assistance from helpful people via PM or even reading suggestions of some here of how to respond. I think people have formed opinions of him and no one is going to convince the other side they are wrong regarding their opinions. It is what it is.

[bababooey]

ANGRY MOB (for 50 pages): "Burn him! We have all the information!"

 

CHIP (1 post): "I disagreed with the grade."

 

ANGRY MOB: "Oh." (sheepishly looks at feet...walks away dejected)

 

 

 

 

Chip nicely covered his bases with his response. I said mine and I still believe in the information I posted. That was good enough for me. For fear of being labeled as sheepish or dejected, I will post my additional doubts and a question.

 

I thought the response looked coached. In addition, the day+ discussion provided detailed hypothetical explanations, he watched all of it unfold, read every response and engaged others via PM long before responding here. That provided him with all the information to select the most favorable defense. That's what I think happened.

- snip -

Bobo,

You investigated 28 of Chip's PGM's & connected them to old e-bay auctions (which took you three hours in the middle of the night) then posted your findings here....all because "another boardie" pointed out to you via PM that Chip had graded a giveaway book lower that he had it listed for on e-bay.

 

Yup, Chip was coached via PM - I am outraged.

[VintageComics]

I used to sell raw books on eBay and finally stopped when I went to becoming a full time dealer. Even though I rarely had returns, I decided to slab everything to avoid disagreeing with anyone because it's less hassle. I'm of the school of thought of paying a little more to save a headache later.

 

Back in the day though, when I was new to selling on eBay I was a different grader than I am today (even though I had few complaints). CGC was an unknown entity and I just graded the way I thought books were supposed to be graded. As I joined this place and also continued to submit books to CGC, I began to tighten up (or for a better way of saying it, started to adapt CGC standards) but I still kept my own raw grading for eBay. I'm quite sure there was a time when I graded raw books tighter here than on eBay for a while.

 

Why?

 

Because this place was full of 'educated collectors' (insert here). I was actually embarrassed about being called 'too loose' on this chat forum so I graded differently here than I did on eBay. Yup. I did.

 

And it wasn't to deceive, rather it was to cater to different markets and give them what I thought they wanted.

 

There is a bit of unspoken posturing around here, especially in the PGM forum, the way you'd have it in a 'country club' or some place where image is important. Very different than just hanging at the local dive bar where nobody cares. That is why (as others have already mentioned) I've also found the PGM forum to be on the tight side at times relative to my standards (and how I believe CGC grades) and I have personally and publicly disagreed with some posted grade opinions...even relatively recently.

 

Anyhow, as time evolved I realized that everyone was looking for CGC grading both on eBay and here and as my understanding increased, so did my ability to grade the way CGC did.

 

Fast forward a few years and I still regularly sell raw books on this forum. I don't think I've ever started a "PGM" thread on this forum (if I did, it must have been long ago and I don't remember it) but many of my raw books get slabbed (I see them coming back to market, even on the same forum a few months later). From what I can see most come back in a reasonable grade range - majority in the advertised grade, some a little under, some a little over.

 

Let's face it, even CGC changes their own grades from time to time. I've resubmitted books, disagreeing with the grade only to see it change either up or down.

 

There are different schools of thought on grading, even today, and I find that unless you are a CGC dealer, or an avid CGC fan/collector, most of the time people don't know how to CGC grade. But ultimately, there is an 'us and them' grading standard - or better put, a CGC and non-CGC grading standard.

 

There really is no black and white, "this is the right grade", be all and end all grading perfection that is 100% right all of the time. Most of the time we are just in a close range. Some people are just closer in range than others.

 

And so that begs the question, which grading standard is correct?

 

The one in the CGC holder last week? This week? This dealer who is tighter than CGC or that dealer who isn't?

 

I personally don't remember the last time I looked at a seller's grade and decided whether I was going to buy a book or not based on their assigned grade. I assign my own grades and my own price points on all of my purchases. I'll talk with my dollars and cents and take the plunge based on my own opinion and live or die by that decision. I'd only expect a refund if there was a hidden defect that would prevent me from accurately grading a book.

 

Finally, as a person who spent over 2 decades in customer service (and am now in my 3rd), if a customer gets what they expected to receive, meaning they looked at the big pictures, read the description, asked questions, and then bid and won and got the book as described, then you have met those expectations and your job as a seller is done.

 

If they are looking for a book with CGC grading, they should buy CGC graded books because that is the only way to guarantee CGC grading.

 

 

[VintageComics]

What is "not your cup of tea"? "Stretching one's grading skills" (whatever that means) or claiming publicly that you are "supporting your family" with the comics sales?

 

Really curious david, because your "grin" emoticon does not help at all in these cases…

 

The words in my post mean exactly what they were chosen to mean. I believe that the only thing you don't understand is the grin, which is meaningless by definition.

 

That is ridiculous. You have seen what I have asked, and your post is not intelligible as you think it is. If you want to reply, good, otherwise I think I will pretty much skip your "smart" posts from now on.

 

Personally, I don't think the 'swipe' at Chip's financial situation is very nice. (thumbs u

[Logan510]

What is "not your cup of tea"? "Stretching one's grading skills" (whatever that means) or claiming publicly that you are "supporting your family" with the comics sales?

 

Really curious david, because your "grin" emoticon does not help at all in these cases…

 

The words in my post mean exactly what they were chosen to mean. I believe that the only thing you don't understand is the grin, which is meaningless by definition.

 

That is ridiculous. You have seen what I have asked, and your post is not intelligible as you think it is. If you want to reply, good, otherwise I think I will pretty much skip your "smart" posts from now on.

 

Personally, I don't think the 'swipe' at Chip's financial situation is very nice. (thumbs u

 

Personally, I don't care for sellers who use it as a selling tool

[VintageComics]

What is "not your cup of tea"? "Stretching one's grading skills" (whatever that means) or claiming publicly that you are "supporting your family" with the comics sales?

 

Really curious david, because your "grin" emoticon does not help at all in these cases…

 

The words in my post mean exactly what they were chosen to mean. I believe that the only thing you don't understand is the grin, which is meaningless by definition.

 

That is ridiculous. You have seen what I have asked, and your post is not intelligible as you think it is. If you want to reply, good, otherwise I think I will pretty much skip your "smart" posts from now on.

 

Personally, I don't think the 'swipe' at Chip's financial situation is very nice. (thumbs u

 

Personally, I don't care for sellers who use it as a selling tool

 

There are probably a hundred posts a month in the selling forums about "oops, money is tight" or "I've overspent" or "I need to take my pet to the vet". Is that any different?

 

I agree that playing people's emotions for profit is not the way to go, but I'm not sure he did that.

 

He did offer to work for his money by selling on consignment for boardies (and he even advertised it in the appropriate forums ) but it's just human nature to look for some commiseration or empathy.

 

Did he actually abuse that? I don't know - I haven't followed many of his posts.

 

[Columbia Comics]

I used to sell raw books on eBay and finally stopped when I went to becoming a full time dealer. Even though I rarely had returns, I decided to slab everything to avoid disagreeing with anyone because it's less hassle. I'm of the school of thought of paying a little more to save a headache later.

 

Back in the day though, when I was new to selling on eBay I was a different grader than I am today (even though I had few complaints). CGC was an unknown entity and I just graded the way I thought books were supposed to be graded. As I joined this place and also continued to submit books to CGC, I began to tighten up (or for a better way of saying it, started to adapt CGC standards) but I still kept my own raw grading for eBay. I'm quite sure there was a time when I graded raw books tighter here than on eBay for a while.

 

Why?

 

Because this place was full of 'educated collectors' (insert here). I was actually embarrassed about being called 'too loose' on this chat forum so I graded differently here than I did on eBay. Yup. I did.

 

And it wasn't to deceive, rather it was to cater to different markets and give them what I thought they wanted.

 

There is a bit of unspoken posturing around here, especially in the PGM forum, the way you'd have it in a 'country club' or some place where image is important. Very different than just hanging at the local dive bar where nobody cares. That is why (as others have already mentioned) I've also found the PGM forum to be on the tight side at times relative to my standards (and how I believe CGC grades) and I have personally and publicly disagreed with some posted grade opinions...even relatively recently.

 

Anyhow, as time evolved I realized that everyone was looking for CGC grading both on eBay and here and as my understanding increased, so did my ability to grade the way CGC did.

 

Fast forward a few years and I still regularly sell raw books on this forum. I don't think I've ever started a "PGM" thread on this forum (if I did, it must have been long ago and I don't remember it) but many of my raw books get slabbed (I see them coming back to market, even on the same forum a few months later). From what I can see most come back in a reasonable grade range - majority in the advertised grade, some a little under, some a little over.

 

Let's face it, even CGC changes their own grades from time to time. I've resubmitted books, disagreeing with the grade only to see it change either up or down.

 

There are different schools of thought on grading, even today, and I find that unless you are a CGC dealer, or an avid CGC fan/collector, most of the time people don't know how to CGC grade. But ultimately, there is an 'us and them' grading standard - or better put, a CGC and non-CGC grading standard.

 

There really is no black and white, "this is the right grade", be all and end all grading perfection that is 100% right all of the time. Most of the time we are just in a close range. Some people are just closer in range than others.

 

And so that begs the question, which grading standard is correct?

 

The one in the CGC holder last week? This week? This dealer who is tighter than CGC or that dealer who isn't?

 

I personally don't remember the last time I looked at a seller's grade and decided whether I was going to buy a book or not based on their assigned grade. I assign my own grades and my own price points on all of my purchases. I'll talk with my dollars and cents and take the plunge based on my own opinion and live or die by that decision. I'd only expect a refund if there was a hidden defect that would prevent me from accurately grading a book.

 

Finally, as a person who spent over 2 decades in customer service (and am now in my 3rd), if a customer gets what they expected to receive, meaning they looked at the big pictures, read the description, asked questions, and then bid and won and got the book as described, then you have met those expectations and your job as a seller is done.

 

If they are looking for a book with CGC grading, they should buy CGC graded books because that is the only way to guarantee CGC grading.

 

 

One of the better posts you've written in a long time....took about 72k of them to get there too!

 

 

[Logan510]

What is "not your cup of tea"? "Stretching one's grading skills" (whatever that means) or claiming publicly that you are "supporting your family" with the comics sales?

 

Really curious david, because your "grin" emoticon does not help at all in these cases…

 

The words in my post mean exactly what they were chosen to mean. I believe that the only thing you don't understand is the grin, which is meaningless by definition.

 

That is ridiculous. You have seen what I have asked, and your post is not intelligible as you think it is. If you want to reply, good, otherwise I think I will pretty much skip your "smart" posts from now on.

 

Personally, I don't think the 'swipe' at Chip's financial situation is very nice. (thumbs u

 

Personally, I don't care for sellers who use it as a selling tool

 

There are probably a hundred posts a month in the selling forums about "oops, money is tight" or "I've overspent" or "I need to take my pet to the vet". Is that any different?

 

I agree that playing people's emotions for profit is not the way to go, but I'm not sure he did that.

 

He did offer to work for his money by selling on consignment for boardies (and he even advertised it in the appropriate forums ) but it's just human nature to look for some commiseration or empathy.

 

Did he actually abuse that? I don't know - I haven't followed many of his posts.

 

I think it is different. A one time " hey, I'm moving and need some extra money" is a lot different than a selling campaign based on always being tight and having to support your family. I feel less sorry for that person when they announce over 100K in Ebay sales.

[vaillant]

Roy, I can’t see why you should have graded differently.

If I assign a grade, I may be even far off from it, but it’s that grade that I would assign.

 

If I become too tight, or too loose, it may depend on how much better I learn to grade, and how I see the general expectations out of a given grade are from the majority of people, but that’s all.

 

Grading has a subjective gray zone, but it can’t bee too large. Hey, you have agreed on such a good thing as grading standards in the USA (we don’t have them here) and now all of a sudden they become so subjective one can change them so heavily we can no longer agree upon them?

 

Opinion, OK, but whatever an opinion is (it seems there is a bit of confusion), the opinionable part is relative as long as you have decent grading skills.

[vaillant]

P.S. It is clear that now we have in most cases the opportunity to judge from pictures, but that is not an excuse for lousy grading. :shrug:

[VintageComics]

I think it is different. A one time " hey, I'm moving and need some extra money" is a lot different than a selling campaign based on always being tight and having to support your family. I feel less sorry for that person when they announce over 100K in Ebay sales.

 

Fair enough. Although just to be fair, when I joined this forum I was always selling comics cause I was tight on cash. Anybody who was here 10 years ago will remember that.

 

I'd also add that $100K on consignment is not a whole lot of dough to raise a family on.