General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean 29 29

[VintageComics]

Roy, I can’t see why you should have graded differently.

If I assign a grade, I may be even far off from it, but it’s that grade that I would assign.

 

Because you want to be fair to both buyer and seller, and when I first joined the CGC chat forum I thought that they were grading nazis.

 

That's how many people who aren't fluent with CGC graded books still think. They think that they are too tight.

 

For me it was a transition period and I learned not only to grade 'better' (meaning more like CGC) but I also learned that people will pay higher percentages for a tightly graded, so it all balanced out.

 

But that only comes with experience.

 

If I become too tight, or too loose, it may depend on how much better I learn to grade, and how I see the general expectations out of a given grade are from the majority of people, but that’s all.

 

Grading has a subjective gray zone, but it can’t bee too large. Hey, you have agreed on such a good thing as grading standards in the USA (we don’t have them here) and now all of a sudden they become so subjective one can change them so heavily we can no longer agree upon them?

 

Opinion, OK, but whatever an opinion is (it seems there is a bit of confusion), the opinionable part is relative as long as you have decent grading skills.

 

Agreed, and that is why I said some people's ranges are closer than others.

 

I'll probably agree with most collectors and dealers who either collect or deal (or both) with CGC graded books.

 

 

[vaillant]

Not sure I follow your explanation about being "too tight"… Who is too tight?

 

CGC grades are good for more expensive books (I picked one lately): if they have to be shipped abroad (my case) you can’t rely on CGC graded books for all the books in the $1 - $90 range – you just expect fair grading skills from the seller. :shrug:

[VintageComics]

Not sure I follow your explanation about being "too tight"… Who is too tight?

 

People who are not familiar with CGC grading think CGC grading is too tight.

 

You hear it all the time:

 

"Thought this would grade higher"

"They were tight on this one"

"6.5 looks like a 7.5"

 

 

[PhoKing]

In the Giving Tree thread, Chip Cataldo posted a Strange Tales #115 that he graded 4.0. Another boardie pointed out to me that he had this same book listed on ebay as a 5.5.

 

So I did a little bit of digging. Huge grade bumps from PGM to eBay and there are a LOT of examples. Here are some:

 

PGM: DD 7 3.5 and he said "that's about what I had it pegged at". --------------------- ebay 5.0

 

PGM: Avengers 55 5.5/6.0 ------------------- ebay 7.5

 

PGM: Captain Marvel 1 4.0 ------------------ ebay 5.0

 

PGM: Captain Marvel 26 8.5 --------------- ebay 9.2

 

PGM: Iron Man 30 6.0 ------------------- ebay 8.0

 

PGM: Iron Man 76 8.0 ------------------- ebay 9.2

 

PGM: TOS 31 4.5 ----------------- ebay 6.0

 

PGM: FF 74 4.5 ------------------ ebay 7.0

 

PGM: ASM 33 4.5 ------------------- ebay 6.0

 

Look at any of his other PGM and you'll almost certainly see a hefty grade bump when placed on ebay.

 

To me, it looks like purposefully overgrading for a higher wining bid. What makes it worse is that's he advertises directly through this site.

 

I had a thought that maybe the grade disparity was due to undergrading in the PGM sub-forum. Not so. Why list the ST115 here as a 4.0 and on ebay as a 5.5? Or the DD 7, where he agrees with the 3.5 average but posts it on ebay as a 5.0? It reeks of serial overgrading.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

didn't he get ripped off by somebody on eBay? Maybe he found out it's okay to do this and there is no repercussion?

Edited September 3, 2014 by PhoKing

[N/A]

trolling

 

There are going to be 'troll groups' wherever there is a community. It's human nature to group up with like minds.

 

Their intentions may not even be dishonorable and they might have the best intentions in mind but they continue to 'troll'.

 

It can be perceptions, jealousy, personality conflicts or they simply refuse to 'agree to disagree' but those small conflicts that people call trolling can and do continue to grow larger unless people put active efforts into trying to prevent them.

 

It's an unfortunate side effect of having large groups gathered.

 

 

 

I think you just defined democracy.

[N/A]

I think the DD comparison is pretty far off and frankly, rather rude.

 

Essentially saying someone is the same as a well known criminal....that just doesn't sit well in my boat.

 

 

In my experience if something doesn't sit right in the boat it ends up in the water.

[VintageComics]

trolling

 

There are going to be 'troll groups' wherever there is a community. It's human nature to group up with like minds.

 

Their intentions may not even be dishonorable and they might have the best intentions in mind but they continue to 'troll'.

 

It can be perceptions, jealousy, personality conflicts or they simply refuse to 'agree to disagree' but those small conflicts that people call trolling can and do continue to grow larger unless people put active efforts into trying to prevent them.

 

It's an unfortunate side effect of having large groups gathered.

 

 

 

I think you just defined democracy.

 

Good point. I do have a long way of saying things, don't I?

 

IMO trolling is just different personalities negatively interacting, kind of like a bad romance but there are some that do it with malice. Those are hard to prove, though.

 

 

[N/A]

I used to sell raw books on eBay and finally stopped when I went to becoming a full time dealer. Even though I rarely had returns, I decided to slab everything to avoid disagreeing with anyone because it's less hassle. I'm of the school of thought of paying a little more to save a headache later.

 

Back in the day though, when I was new to selling on eBay I was a different grader than I am today (even though I had few complaints). CGC was an unknown entity and I just graded the way I thought books were supposed to be graded. As I joined this place and also continued to submit books to CGC, I began to tighten up (or for a better way of saying it, started to adapt CGC standards) but I still kept my own raw grading for eBay. I'm quite sure there was a time when I graded raw books tighter here than on eBay for a while.

 

Why?

 

Because this place was full of 'educated collectors' (insert here). I was actually embarrassed about being called 'too loose' on this chat forum so I graded differently here than I did on eBay. Yup. I did.

 

And it wasn't to deceive, rather it was to cater to different markets and give them what I thought they wanted.

 

There is a bit of unspoken posturing around here, especially in the PGM forum, the way you'd have it in a 'country club' or some place where image is important. Very different than just hanging at the local dive bar where nobody cares. That is why (as others have already mentioned) I've also found the PGM forum to be on the tight side at times relative to my standards (and how I believe CGC grades) and I have personally and publicly disagreed with some posted grade opinions...even relatively recently.

 

Anyhow, as time evolved I realized that everyone was looking for CGC grading both on eBay and here and as my understanding increased, so did my ability to grade the way CGC did.

 

Fast forward a few years and I still regularly sell raw books on this forum. I don't think I've ever started a "PGM" thread on this forum (if I did, it must have been long ago and I don't remember it) but many of my raw books get slabbed (I see them coming back to market, even on the same forum a few months later). From what I can see most come back in a reasonable grade range - majority in the advertised grade, some a little under, some a little over.

 

Let's face it, even CGC changes their own grades from time to time. I've resubmitted books, disagreeing with the grade only to see it change either up or down.

 

There are different schools of thought on grading, even today, and I find that unless you are a CGC dealer, or an avid CGC fan/collector, most of the time people don't know how to CGC grade. But ultimately, there is an 'us and them' grading standard - or better put, a CGC and non-CGC grading standard.

 

There really is no black and white, "this is the right grade", be all and end all grading perfection that is 100% right all of the time. Most of the time we are just in a close range. Some people are just closer in range than others.

 

And so that begs the question, which grading standard is correct?

 

The one in the CGC holder last week? This week? This dealer who is tighter than CGC or that dealer who isn't?

 

I personally don't remember the last time I looked at a seller's grade and decided whether I was going to buy a book or not based on their assigned grade. I assign my own grades and my own price points on all of my purchases. I'll talk with my dollars and cents and take the plunge based on my own opinion and live or die by that decision. I'd only expect a refund if there was a hidden defect that would prevent me from accurately grading a book.

 

Finally, as a person who spent over 2 decades in customer service (and am now in my 3rd), if a customer gets what they expected to receive, meaning they looked at the big pictures, read the description, asked questions, and then bid and won and got the book as described, then you have met those expectations and your job as a seller is done.

 

If they are looking for a book with CGC grading, they should buy CGC graded books because that is the only way to guarantee CGC grading.

 

 

One of the better posts you've written in a long time....took about 72k of them to get there too!

 

 

I prefer the short answers.

[vaillant]

Not sure I follow your explanation about being "too tight"… Who is too tight?

 

People who are not familiar with CGC grading think CGC grading is too tight.

 

You hear it all the time:

 

"Thought this would grade higher"

"They were tight on this one"

"6.5 looks like a 7.5"

 

(thumbs u All clear now, thanks!

 

I prefer the short answers.

Which are often not answers, and wrong and partial. :shrug:

[divad]

In the Giving Tree thread, Chip Cataldo posted a Strange Tales #115 that he graded 4.0. Another boardie pointed out to me that he had this same book listed on ebay as a 5.5.

 

So I did a little bit of digging. Huge grade bumps from PGM to eBay and there are a LOT of examples. Here are some:

 

PGM: DD 7 3.5 and he said "that's about what I had it pegged at". --------------------- ebay 5.0

 

PGM: Avengers 55 5.5/6.0 ------------------- ebay 7.5

 

PGM: Captain Marvel 1 4.0 ------------------ ebay 5.0

 

PGM: Captain Marvel 26 8.5 --------------- ebay 9.2

 

PGM: Iron Man 30 6.0 ------------------- ebay 8.0

 

PGM: Iron Man 76 8.0 ------------------- ebay 9.2

 

PGM: TOS 31 4.5 ----------------- ebay 6.0

 

PGM: FF 74 4.5 ------------------ ebay 7.0

 

PGM: ASM 33 4.5 ------------------- ebay 6.0

 

Look at any of his other PGM and you'll almost certainly see a hefty grade bump when placed on ebay.

 

To me, it looks like purposefully overgrading for a higher wining bid. What makes it worse is that's he advertises directly through this site.

 

I had a thought that maybe the grade disparity was due to undergrading in the PGM sub-forum. Not so. Why list the ST115 here as a 4.0 and on ebay as a 5.5? Or the DD 7, where he agrees with the 3.5 average but posts it on ebay as a 5.0? It reeks of serial overgrading.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

didn't he get ripped off by somebody on eBay? Maybe he found out it's okay to do this and there is no repercussion?

 

Nope, that was the, "I got ripped off on Craig's List - What should I do now?" thread.

[N/A]

Not sure I follow your explanation about being "too tight"… Who is too tight?

 

People who are not familiar with CGC grading think CGC grading is too tight.

 

You hear it all the time:

 

"Thought this would grade higher"

"They were tight on this one"

"6.5 looks like a 7.5"

 

(thumbs u All clear now, thanks!

 

I prefer the short answers.

Which are often not answers, and wrong and partial. :shrug:

 

Take a poll

[DR.X]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading

 

 

 

 

I checked out some of his e-bay listings last night. This one stood out like a sore thumb. The B.C. of this book is wrinkled to high heaven. Is grading on this book " subjective ". Subjective to what? This isn't a case of grade bumping a half or a full point. This is going way beyond that. This is a 6.0 in some alternate universe maybe.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Daredevil-5-1964-FN-6-0-OW-W-Pages-Wally-Wood-Artwork-Begins-/321503934731?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4adb20b90b#ht_340wt_923

[Dr. Balls]

ANGRY MOB (for 50 pages): "Burn him! We have all the information!"

 

CHIP (1 post): "I disagreed with the grade."

 

ANGRY MOB: "Oh." (sheepishly looks at feet...walks away dejected)

 

 

 

 

Wow, that's exactly what happened.

 

Oh, NOW we're going to start worrying about proof about what's happening around here?

 

C'mon dude, there was no angry mob, there was no witch hunt. Something came up that was questionable and he came along and gave some answers. I wasn't personally satisfied with them, but I don't think it's really a punishable offense. It's something that just deserves a mental note for future reference.

 

I was just kidding around, mostly. There was an awful lot of speculation based on commentary - and no hard tangible, in-hand evidence. No one saying "I bought it as a 5.5 and look here: it's a 4.0"

 

How do you stop people from doing that? I have no idea. You talk about it in private, and you get accused of being a PM clique. You talk about it in public, you get accused of being a troll. There's really no solution, and I don't really have any complaints. It's just one of those things that happens on a messageboard.

[faster friends]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading

 

 

 

 

I checked out some of his e-bay listings last night. This one stood out like a sore thumb. The B.C. of this book is wrinkled to high heaven. Is grading on this book " subjective ". Subjective to what? This isn't a case of grade bumping a half or a full point. This is going way beyond that. This is a 6.0 in some alternate universe maybe.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Daredevil-5-1964-FN-6-0-OW-W-Pages-Wally-Wood-Artwork-Begins-/321503934731?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4adb20b90b#ht_340wt_923

 

That is kinda hard to call 6.0

 

Like to hear what chip has to say about grading this one.

[HarveySwick]

eBay NM!

[jsilverjanet]

maybe it's one of those famous

 

it's presents like a VF on the front and after you press it, get the grader drunk at the convention, you might get a 6.0 at PGX?

[divad]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading

 

 

 

 

I checked out some of his e-bay listings last night. This one stood out like a sore thumb. The B.C. of this book is wrinkled to high heaven. Is grading on this book " subjective ". Subjective to what? This isn't a case of grade bumping a half or a full point. This is going way beyond that. This is a 6.0 in some alternate universe maybe.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Daredevil-5-1964-FN-6-0-OW-W-Pages-Wally-Wood-Artwork-Begins-/321503934731?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4adb20b90b#ht_340wt_923

 

Apparently, he's had no "change of heart".

[revat]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading

 

 

 

 

I checked out some of his e-bay listings last night. This one stood out like a sore thumb. The B.C. of this book is wrinkled to high heaven. Is grading on this book " subjective ". Subjective to what? This isn't a case of grade bumping a half or a full point. This is going way beyond that. This is a 6.0 in some alternate universe maybe.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Daredevil-5-1964-FN-6-0-OW-W-Pages-Wally-Wood-Artwork-Begins-/321503934731?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4adb20b90b#ht_340wt_923

 

Apparently, he's had no "change of heart".

 

tough

[DR.X]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading

 

 

 

 

I checked out some of his e-bay listings last night. This one stood out like a sore thumb. The B.C. of this book is wrinkled to high heaven. Is grading on this book " subjective ". Subjective to what? This isn't a case of grade bumping a half or a full point. This is going way beyond that. This is a 6.0 in some alternate universe maybe.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Daredevil-5-1964-FN-6-0-OW-W-Pages-Wally-Wood-Artwork-Begins-/321503934731?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4adb20b90b#ht_340wt_923

 

That is kinda hard to call 6.0

 

Like to hear what chip has to say about grading this one.

 

With the amount of wrinkling on that B.C. and those long diagonal creases, 4.0 would be a stretch.

[Ditch Fahrenheit]

For me, Chip disagreeing with the PGM grades is not a huge deal and I can understand the boardie pushback on that. Personally though, I will choose not to buy from him based on the ebay grading

 

 

 

 

I checked out some of his e-bay listings last night. This one stood out like a sore thumb. The B.C. of this book is wrinkled to high heaven. Is grading on this book " subjective ". Subjective to what? This isn't a case of grade bumping a half or a full point. This is going way beyond that. This is a 6.0 in some alternate universe maybe.

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Daredevil-5-1964-FN-6-0-OW-W-Pages-Wally-Wood-Artwork-Begins-/321503934731?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item4adb20b90b#ht_340wt_923

 

That is kinda hard to call 6.0

 

Like to hear what chip has to say about grading this one.

 

With the amount of wrinkling on that B.C. and those long diagonal creases, 4.0 would be a stretch.

 

You're overlooking the bloodstain bump.