Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[Prince Namor]

49 minutes ago, 1Cool said:

I thought I was possibly being overly negative about the future but you are saying Marvel and DC may go under if they kept to one continuous numbering?  The amount of collectors who would want Fantastic Four 824 (for example since I have no idea how many issues they were up to) would not be enough to keep them profitable?  That's truly scary if that is true.

The problem is, Marvel doesn't seem to care about the 20-40,000 loyal readers of a book - they're more interested in the 50-60,000 other copies they can sell in a reboot. It sucks. 

[Prince Namor]

27 minutes ago, nWo_22 said:

Variants are like beer prices at the ballparks, if you people keep buying them (just look at eBay) comic publishers will keep making them.

It's the comic communties fault that variants exist.  I don't even listen to variant covers complaints from anyone anymore.

Marvel Comics seems though is on the verge of bringing back all the characters from what I gathering from that article that started this thread that we love and hold dear because the only color that means anything in our capitalistic country is GREEN!  The market has spoken and Marvel Comics has failed in recent years so they have no choice but to bring this whole thing back to formula.

It was a pathetic attempt from the house of stupidity to think a male dominated marketplace would want to see a female versions of their beloved characters in a laughable attempt again to bring new readership in the mix. Gee you mean it didn't work how shocking.  

There is obviously nothing wrong with bringing diversity into the mix, however not in this forced manner.  If someone or a group wants a comic book character that represents them then thats is awesome and I don't think anyone would be opposed to that obviously. However be creative and create a new character that is representative of that diverse change instead of being lazy and having no talent what so ever.

Don't believe the hype from Marvel. This is a promotional gimmick for the new reboot.

Marvel has ALWAYS been diverse, from the introduction of the Black Panther, to SHe-Hulk, Spider-woman, to a black female Captain Marvel, Storm, Bishop, Psylocke, on up to X-23 who is essentially She-Wolverine. Diversity is NOT what is killing them. It's editorial strangling.

Look at the non-diverse titles:

ASM Feb 2016: 75,357 down in Feb 2017: 61,953 (Down 14,000 on their #1 Super Hero book!!!)

Star Wars Feb 2016: 110,407 down in Feb 2017: 74,002 (Down 36,000!!!)

Deadpool Feb 2016: 88,264 down in Feb 2017: 38,560 (Down 50,000!!!)

Old Man Logan Feb 2016: 63,932 down in Feb 2017: 38,850 (Down 25,000!!!)

Marvel's whole line is down. The plan was ALWAYS to bring back Thor. The plan was ALWAYS to bring back Iron Man, It's the way it's ALWAYS worked.

I'm sure back when Jon Stewart first showed up in the DC Universe there were people outraged, but Hal Jordan returned. They can drag this type of thing out for years now, to milk it for all they can, and then act as if it's big surprise.

Some of us aren't surprise at all.

How can you all be fooled by this same stunt over and over and over again?

 

[Azkaban]

4 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Don't believe the hype from Marvel. This is a promotional gimmick for the new reboot.

Marvel has ALWAYS been diverse, from the introduction of the Black Panther, to SHe-Hulk, Spider-woman, to a black female Captain Marvel, Storm, Bishop, Psylocke, on up to X-23 who is essentially She-Wolverine. Diversity is NOT what is killing them. It's editorial strangling.

Look at the non-diverse titles:

ASM Feb 2016: 75,357 down in Feb 2017: 61,953 (Down 14,000 on their #1 Super Hero book!!!)

Star Wars Feb 2016: 110,407 down in Feb 2017: 74,002 (Down 36,000!!!)

Deadpool Feb 2016: 88,264 down in Feb 2017: 38,560 (Down 50,000!!!)

Old Man Logan Feb 2016: 63,932 down in Feb 2017: 38,850 (Down 25,000!!!)

Marvel's whole line is down. The plan was ALWAYS to bring back Thor. The plan was ALWAYS to bring back Iron Man, It's the way it's ALWAYS worked.

I'm sure back when Jon Stewart first showed up in the DC Universe there were people outraged, but Hal Jordan returned. They can drag this type of thing out for years now, to milk it for all they can, and then act as if it's big surprise.

Some of us aren't surprise at all.

How can you all be fooled by this same stunt over and over and over again?

 

I quit buying new stuff the first time they renumbered all the titles I collected. Never went back.

[Get Marwood & I]

13 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Don't believe the hype from Marvel. This is a promotional gimmick for the new reboot.

Marvel has ALWAYS been diverse, from the introduction of the Black Panther, to SHe-Hulk, Spider-woman, to a black female Captain Marvel, Storm, Bishop, Psylocke, on up to X-23 who is essentially She-Wolverine. Diversity is NOT what is killing them. It's editorial strangling.

Look at the non-diverse titles:

ASM Feb 2016: 75,357 down in Feb 2017: 61,953 (Down 14,000 on their #1 Super Hero book!!!)

Star Wars Feb 2016: 110,407 down in Feb 2017: 74,002 (Down 36,000!!!)

Deadpool Feb 2016: 88,264 down in Feb 2017: 38,560 (Down 50,000!!!)

Old Man Logan Feb 2016: 63,932 down in Feb 2017: 38,850 (Down 25,000!!!)

Marvel's whole line is down. The plan was ALWAYS to bring back Thor. The plan was ALWAYS to bring back Iron Man, It's the way it's ALWAYS worked.

I'm sure back when Jon Stewart first showed up in the DC Universe there were people outraged, but Hal Jordan returned. They can drag this type of thing out for years now, to milk it for all they can, and then act as if it's big surprise.

Some of us aren't surprise at all.

How can you all be fooled by this same stunt over and over and over again?

 

 

We're not Chuck, or were you speaking rhetorically?

[Prince Namor]

4 minutes ago, Azkaban said:

I quit buying new stuff the first time they renumbered all the titles I collected. Never went back.

I quit long before that. The stories were the same thing over and over again...

The numbering would've bothered me, but I was out long before that.

[Prince Namor]

1 minute ago, Marwood & I said:

 

We're not Chuck, or were you speaking rhetorically?

Some people are. Remember the outrage over Captain America being a Hydra agent? I got a couple of angry messages on that for calling the bluff before Marvel did the following month! People really believed it.

Some people believe diversity is what has failed at Marvel. That Marvel changed their whole line, for good, in order to make special interests happy. LOL.

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 hour ago, 1Cool said:

I thought I was possibly being overly negative about the future but you are saying Marvel and DC may go under if they kept to one continuous numbering?  The amount of collectors who would want Fantastic Four 824 (for example since I have no idea how many issues they were up to) would not be enough to keep them profitable?  That's truly scary if that is true.

I think a lot of fans are starting to figure it out, similar to when in the early 90s when fans started to figure out Youngblood #1, The return of Superman, and countless number 1's back then were not going to fund their children's college education and their retirement fund.So it could get real ugly soon. This is why people are concerned because of what happened in the 90s. They are especially concerned about Marvel and DC because thru out it all they survived.  With Warner and Disney controlling them who knows what action they would take? Imagine if Marvel and DC monthly comic book sales were half of what they are now in 3 to 5 years? Truly scary as you say.

[1Cool]

22 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

I think a lot of fans are starting to figure it out, similar to when in the early 90s when fans started to figure out Youngblood #1, The return of Superman, and countless number 1's back then were not going to fund their children's college education and their retirement fund.So it could get real ugly soon. This is why people are concerned because of what happened in the 90s. They are especially concerned about Marvel and DC because thru out it all they survived.  With Warner and Disney controlling them who knows what action they would take? Imagine if Marvel and DC monthly comic book sales were half of what they are now in 3 to 5 years? Truly scary as you say.

Great question.  What number is it not worth producing the book?  20k?  10k? 5k? I'm sure there are a ton variables such as necessary numbers before advertisements pull out but it would be interesting to see how low books need to go before they just are not worth producing.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, 1Cool said:

2 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

4 hours ago, 1Cool said:

I'm not sure DC is any better.  I loved the new Batmans 52 series since it was well written and great art.  Problem is they rebooted the series and now the old 52 books are dropping in price like a rock.  Even the best books don't survive as a high ticket collectible if the series has a new #1 every few years.

Price value has nothing to do with quality of story and art. As long as we continue to focus on making and buying comics as collectibles, we'll continue to lose readership. It's a losing game.

I disagree.  Focusing all their effort on making a collectible is definitely a bad thing but disregarding the back issue market with constant renumbering is equally bad in my opinion.

Publishers don't (and shouldn't) care about the secondary market.

Renumbering or not, anybody who was dumb enough to pay big money for New 52 Batman comics deserves to have their "investment" disappear.

[1Cool]

13 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Publishers don't (and shouldn't) care about the secondary market.

Renumbering or not, anybody who was dumb enough to pay big money for New 52 Batman comics deserves to have their "investment" disappear.

Why?  Was it evident that the series was limited in nature?  That Batman #1 was a key books for awhile and I know people were paying $200 for even raw copies.  It had all the markings of a long term hit for everything I was seeing up until they relaunched (again).

[kav]

It was a gimmick.  Gimmicks don't have legs.

[Lazyboy]

41 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Some people are. Remember the outrage over Captain America being a Hydra agent? I got a couple of angry messages on that for calling the bluff before Marvel did the following month! People really believed it.

Some people believe diversity is what has failed at Marvel. That Marvel changed their whole line, for good, in order to make special interests happy. LOL.

It's not diversity that failed, it's terribly executed, forced diversity.

Sure, Jim Rhodes briefly replaced Tony Stark in the Iron Man suit decades ago. But that was years after he was created and became a regular supporting character. It also wasn't at the same time as every other member of the Avengers was changed or replaced.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Chuck Gower said:

Some people are. Remember the outrage over Captain America being a Hydra agent? I got a couple of angry messages on that for calling the bluff before Marvel did the following month! People really believed it.

Some people believe diversity is what has failed at Marvel. That Marvel changed their whole line, for good, in order to make special interests happy. LOL.

 

Then those people are beneath our consideration Chuck ?

[1Cool]

1 hour ago, kav said:

It was a gimmick.  Gimmicks don't have legs.

Now you tell me.  I've got a couple Detective 1 New 52 hanging around since I liked the joker cover too much to blow them out at a discount.  Now I probably can't give them away.

[kav]

yep

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, 1Cool said:

Why?  Was it evident that the series was limited in nature? 

What does that have to do with anything?

Quote

That Batman #1 was a key books for awhile and I know people were paying $200 for even raw copies.  It had all the markings of a long term hit for everything I was seeing up until they relaunched (again).

What was key about it?

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight was a great series. It ran for nearly two decades. Why isn't the first issue of that series worth anything? Oh, of course, it had a high print run, right?

Let's look at Comichron to see the numbers for Batman in 2011.
Batman 712 - 51,385 (#22)
Batman 713 - 51,760 (#20)
Batman 1 - 188,420 (#1)
Batman 2 - 172,428 (#2)
Batman 3 - 150,984 (#2)
Batman 4 - 133,781 (#2)

So, that's an enormous jump over the orders of the previous series and a 50,000(!) order drop from issue 1 to issue 4. Orders for the series more or less stabilized around that 130,000 mark for months, but orders for issue 30 were only 108,998. So if you gathered all the copies together and made runs of 1-30, you would have an extra 80,000  copies of issue 1, at a time when 80,000 copies will easily put you in the top ten in nearly any month. Sounds like a plan for long-term (high) price stability to me.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Lazyboy
typo

[1950's war comics]

I have bought exactly one modern since i started collecting again in 2014, it was a DC Star Spangled War Stories and i was attracted to it because it was a war book title from the old days and  it had a cool holo-gram cover!

i tried reading it twice but couldn't get past the 3rd page because of the horrible artwork and story...........

[Prince Namor]

6 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

It's not diversity that failed, it's terribly executed, forced diversity.

Sure, Jim Rhodes briefly replaced Tony Stark in the Iron Man suit decades ago. But that was years after he was created and became a regular supporting character. It also wasn't at the same time as every other member of the Avengers was changed or replaced.

I don't see HOW they replace it has anything to do with it - in neither instance did/will it LAST. If RiRi is still around in 20 years and a part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, then she'll be the same thing War Machine was: A short lived replacement for the original Iron Man that didn't sell long term, but that Marvel continued to make a commitment toward.

Both were gimmicks to sell comics. 

And the (almost) entire Avengers team has been replaced numerous times throughout the years with diversity (Luke Cage, Captain Marvel) as well as with lesser known characters (Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch). It's the SAME gimmick. Shake things up. Get the nerds talking and complaining but buying to see what happens.

Even the newest, U.S. Avengers team has characters on it that have previously been Avengers, mixed with oddball choices. Nothing new. At all.

It sold 110,000 copies of #1 and then fell to 19,000 by #3.  Which puts it right at the same sales level as #5 of the Doctor Strange, who has been around as a character for Marvel for almost 60 years, and doesn't have any 'diversity' going on in it's pages.

As I've said, Marvel's problem doesn't seem to be that they're doing anything NEW or DIFFERENT - quite the contrary - they seem to be doing the same old thing and they're running out of people to sell it to. 

The last three Marvel comics I read were Doctor Strange #1-3 (2015 Jason Aaron/Chris Bachalo), Daredevil #1-3 (2015 Charles Soule/Ron Garney) and Ms. Marvel #1-6 (2015 G. Willow Wilson/Takeshi Miyazawa). I thought all three were enjoyable. Sales numbers for all three ended up being disappointing, regardless of diversity or 'time in the field'.

[Hamlet]

I'd love to know how many subscriptions they have to Marvel Unlimited, and what the demographics of those subscribers look like.  I would suspect that that is how the majority of people under 25 would buy comics these days.

Citing low print runs as the death of comics is like citing CD sales as the death of music.  Music isn't going away, it just gets sold on iTunes these days instead of on a plastic disk.

The real long term determiner of Marvel's success in comics will be how many of those subscriptions they can sell, not how many floppies they sell, IMO.  

[Juswuh]

2 hours ago, Hamlet said:

Citing low print runs as the death of comics is like citing CD sales as the death of music.  Music isn't going away, it just gets sold on iTunes these days instead of on a plastic disk.

 

Musicians from more than one long-established band have said it isn't worth their time/money to put out a new album these days...