Marvel's Falling Sales 6 6

[Prince Namor]

42 minutes ago, masterlogan2000 said:

And yet, that's the heart of the conversation here.  "Marvel's Falling Sales".

Clearly these gimmicks are not selling anymore.  They are not convincing anyone to buy more books.  They are alienating their core readership and losing more readers than they are picking up.

Yes, but that's been going on for 20 years. Not because of diversity, but because they don't know what they're doing.

42 minutes ago, masterlogan2000 said:

As a BUSINESS, they have done an awful job with regards to comic sales.

But was Luke Cage "FORCED" upon the readers?  You "knew people who wouldn't read Luke Cage," so I'm guessing the answer is no.  Did Luke Cage take over the Captain America mantle?  Did The Incredible Hulk comic get canned so that Luke Cage could be promoted?

Yes, under the context of what people are saying here - he was an unestablished character thrust into the spotlight of his own series.

A series getting cancelled is a temporary thing. If you're really concerned about the 'original' Iron Man, trust me, he'll be back. They always are.

And when Kyle Rayner became the Green Lantern, REPLACING ALL Green Lanterns, they were much more concerned about numbering still. So they just kicked Hal Jordan out of his own book, to replace him. He of course returned. They always do.

42 minutes ago, masterlogan2000 said:

Creating a NEW character and publishing a NEW comic series based on that character is far different from changing the RACE or GENDER of an already ESTABLISHED character.  You can still sell comics with the former, and you're not FORCING anything on your readership to accomplish it.

And what characters race or gender has changed? You mean someone else picked up the job of playing that character that wasn't the original?

People keep saying "They changed Thor into a girl!".... uh, NO.... that's not what happened.... or "They made Iron Man a black chick!".... Mmmm....NO, that's not what happened....

Someone else is playing the part because something happened to the original, which will turn out to be temporary like it was with Green Lantern, and Iron Man previously, and OH YEAH BATMAN just last year....!!!

Someone else taking up for the original character has been going on forever.... Captain marvel became a black female, Hawkeye became or Giant Man, whatever that was, Ben Reily took over for Spider-man, Johnny Storm became the Human Torch (he's not the original), War Machine took over for Iron Man, Jon Stewart was the Green Lantern, Robin, robin, robin.... Ghost Rider, Hulk, Spider-man and Wolverine becoming the Fantastic Four for two issues.... FOUR New Supermen, when he 'died'....new people taking over for established characters.

Been done. A LOT.

[Prince Namor]

49 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

I hear you! I can imagine with a name like "Black Panther" that didn't rest well with some either  No Worries and thanks for setting me straight, I thought twice about it when I was typing but hit send anyway X 23 didn't seemed forced on me but I wasn't with her from the beginning, and the Spiderman, I agree didn't go over well or didn't find his mainstay even though he was marketed as such.

 

Thank you for speaking  and don't worry about the new boards, I always welcome the others views as I don't think that I know a lot  

None of us knows everything, but conversation and hearing different views helps us all learn more! 

I've learned so much from these boards... Many of the people aren't here anymore unfortunately, but.... still a tremendous amount of info here!

Edited April 13, 2017 by Chuck Gower

[Prince Namor]

34 minutes ago, Hamlet said:

One thing I wonder about is from a practical standpoint, are there really any more new, original stories to tell about these long running characters anymore? 

The reboots, and the renumberings, and the constant tinkering with gender/race/etc may stem from the fact that at some point you just run out of stories to tell and have to start retelling them over and over with something changed.

Some of those retellings are good ( say Miller's Batman Year One ) and some are bad, but frankly, there is going to be difficulty with rehashing the same things over and over for 50 years.

On the one hand, people want the comics to be true to the characters, but on the other hand, in order for the comic to actually be new, it has to different in some way from the past issues.  How do you actually do that with any consistently after 50 years of stories?  Either its the same old thing that you've read 10 times already, or they've changed something too much and it doesn't feel like the character you grew up with.

 

Especially when you consider they do it every month year after year.... That's a LOT of stories to tell.

I guesstimate Spider-man has probably had close to 2000 original stories written about him. Batman maybe over 5000.

How in the world do you keep that fresh? Original? There's nothing to compare it to, is there?

Is there any character in the history of man with over 5000 different original stories written about it?

[Get Marwood & I]

21 minutes ago, kav said:

There are only a certain number of stories but there is an infinite number of variations on how you tell them.  Essentially there is man  vs man, man vs self, man vs nature.  There will always be great stories to be told unfortunately Marvel is not doing that.  They are just regurgitating.  Not only are they regurgitating other comic stories they are regurgitating stuff you would see on the CW.

You forgot man vs f***ing board timeouts Kav. 

[ComicConnoisseur]

1 hour ago, Marwood & I said:

 

True, but the movies are still new and fresh and can cherry pick from the best of the last 60 years of storytelling. What do you honestly think the Guardians of The Galaxy 27 Part II film will be like?

A blockbuster,but not on the same level as the first. It will still be very successful. 

[Get Marwood & I]

5 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

A blockbuster,but not on the same level as the first. It will still be very successful. 

[Prince Namor]

5 minutes ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

A blockbuster,but not on the same level as the first. It will still be very successful. 

Doubtful, based on the history of movies.

And it for sure wouldn't be if they had to produce them monthly.

[PEP]

Those Marvel insufficiently_thoughtful_persons are in a bubble and forget that picking a side in the social justice wimpy saga will alienate half your clientele.  Never pick a side if you want to make money, you're in the business to make money not statements.

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, NUNYABZ said:

Those Marvel insufficiently_thoughtful_persons are in a bubble and forget that picking a side in the social justice wimpy saga will alienate half your clientele.  Never pick a side if you want to make money, you're in the business to make money not statements.

What statement are they making?

That superheroes can be more than just white males? They've been making that statement since the 60's. 

Seems to me it's the fans who are the Social Justice Wimps crying about how their precious men in tights aren't represented to their specifications. 

Its Social Justice they're crying for... that makes THEM the SJW's. "We want what's fair!" Grow up. They're cartoon characters.

And Marvel has hardly lost 'half' their 'clientele' - they're down 2% in market share from last year and 7% in unit share from last year - which is pretty much in line with the industry as a whole right now. The COMICS industry.

In OTHER media, owned by Marvel, where they've 'diversified', the MOVIES and TV, with their BLACK Nick Fury (a huge central part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe) and WHITE FEMALE Ancient One and BLACK Heimdall and WHITE Iron Fist and BLACK Night Nurse... they've had monsterous success that is unparalleled with any sequelled film universe EVER in the history of movies. 

So, no. They haven't lost a damn thing. 

That little, tiny, niche publishing part of the Marvel Empire, which is down 5%, isn't going to make or break the company. They're making plenty of money. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by Chuck Gower

[exitmusicblue]

In the end analysis, this is truth.

Marvel would care a lot more about its publishing quality if it mattered.... but it doesn't really.

Cheers to that, I say -- makes GA/SA books all the more prized. 

[Prince Namor]

31 minutes ago, exitmusicblue said:

In the end analysis, this is truth.

Marvel would care a lot more about its publishing quality if it mattered.... but it doesn't really.

Cheers to that, I say -- makes GA/SA books all the more prized. 

I'm even wondering what David (Gabriel) for Marvel is talking about... I'll see him this coming week and ask...

I look at the numbers and what I see is:

Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist - they all sell LESS copies than Silk on the Diamond Top 300

Spider-man 2099, Silver Surfer, Bullseye, Hawkeye, Black Widow - they all sell less than Squirrel Girl!

Which means that Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist ALSO sell less than Squirrel Girl!

Squirrel Girl! 

Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ghost Rider, all sell right about what Ms Marvel does!

Which means that Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist, all sell less than Ms. Marvel does!

Punisher, Daredevil, and Uncanny Avengers all sell less than Captain Marvel!

Which means that Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist,  Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Daredevil, and Uncanny Avengers , all sell less than Captain Marvel.

Thanos, Uncanny X-Men, Venom, all sell less than Mighty (Jane) Thor and Riri's Invincible Iron Man!

Which means ALL of those other books - Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist,  Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Daredevil,  Uncanny Avengers, Thanos, Uncanny X-Men, and Venom - more established and less diverse comics - all sell less than the two prominent character switched books - Mighty Thor and Invincible Iron Man. 

What is he talking about?

Unless of course it was all just a gimmick and marketing plan and...

[drotto]

We can continue arguing about if the SJW aspect of current Marvel comics is the main part of declining sale or if it is something broader. What seems clear to me however is that the number of comics sold industry wide does not line up withe the current popularity of super heroes and geek culture in general.

 

How can the best selling comic books be lucky to hit 100k? Yes, I know about the decline of printed media in general, and changing tastes in media consumption, but the numbers just do not add up.  Comic movies are making billions and are seen by millions of people.  There are more hero shows on TV and streaming then ever, attracting millions of viewers. Conventions sell out across the country. There are 6 billion plus people on the planet and all these characters have their highest name recognition ever.

 

And Marvel and DC get lucky to muster 100k in sales for a top performing comic book. Where is the disconnect coming from, and what can be done to change it?

[ComicConnoisseur]

5 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

I'm even wondering what David (Gabriel) for Marvel is talking about... I'll see him this coming week and ask...

I look at the numbers and what I see is:

Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist - they all sell LESS copies than Silk on the Diamond Top 300

Spider-man 2099, Silver Surfer, Bullseye, Hawkeye, Black Widow - they all sell less than Squirrel Girl!

Which means that Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist ALSO sell less than Squirrel Girl!

Squirrel Girl! 

Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ghost Rider, all sell right about what Ms Marvel does!

Which means that Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist, all sell less than Ms. Marvel does!

Punisher, Daredevil, and Uncanny Avengers all sell less than Captain Marvel!

Which means that Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist,  Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Daredevil, and Uncanny Avengers , all sell less than Captain Marvel.

Thanos, Uncanny X-Men, Venom, all sell less than Mighty (Jane) Thor and Riri's Invincible Iron Man!

Which means ALL of those other books - Star-lord, Thunderbolts, Power Man and Iron Fist,  Black Widow, Uncanny Inhumans, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ghost Rider, Punisher, Daredevil,  Uncanny Avengers, Thanos, Uncanny X-Men, and Venom - more established and less diverse comics - all sell less than the two prominent character switched books - Mighty Thor and Invincible Iron Man. 

What is he talking about?

Unless of course it was all just a gimmick and marketing plan and...

Chuck,I think Squirrel Girl is pretty popular. I have a friend who monetizes Pinterest accounts and he was showing data, and his Squirrel Girl pins were getting twice as many views as any other characters he had on there.

So then I did some more research and it seems Squirrel Girl is also a huge seller on Amazon.com. At one time she was dominating Marvel's top trade paperbacks on there with sales.

With the upcoming Squirrel Girl and New Warriors tv show we will find this character might take off like Rocket Raccoon and Groot.

Disney will push Squirrel Girl, so yeah I think we should start taking this character seriously.

I didn't at first,but now I am. 

Edited April 15, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[ComicConnoisseur]

54 minutes ago, drotto said:

We can continue arguing about if the SJW aspect of current Marvel comics is the main part of declining sale or if it is something broader. What seems clear to me however is that the number of comics sold industry wide does not line up withe the current popularity of super heroes and geek culture in general.

 

How can the best selling comic books be lucky to hit 100k? Yes, I know about the decline of printed media in general, and changing tastes in media consumption, but the numbers just do not add up.  Comic movies are making billions and are seen by millions of people.  There are more hero shows on TV and streaming then ever, attracting millions of viewers. Conventions sell out across the country. There are 6 billion plus people on the planet and all these characters have their highest name recognition ever.

 

And Marvel and DC get lucky to muster 100k in sales for a top performing comic book. Where is the disconnect coming from, and what can be done to change it?

If we factor in how many comics Loot Crate has bought these 100k sales could be much lower.

I don't get it either with comic movies making billions,but yet the monthly floppy sales are falling?

I am starting to think that trade paperbacks and digital sales are a lot bigger than we think.

[drotto]

 

1 hour ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

If we factor in how many comics Loot Crate has bought these 100k sales could be much lower.

I don't get it either with comic movies making billions,but yet the monthly floppy sales are falling?

I am starting to think that trade paperbacks and digital sales are a lot bigger than we think.

I have gotten some flack before for suggesting the entire idea of a monthly floppy may need to be revised.  I like the addiction of having that need to go to the store each Wednesday.   With that said, I will often let months of titles accumulate and then read them in bunches and runs, and that sounds the same as reading trades.  I am starting to wonder if I should switch over. I also think that maybe the industry should consider switching over.  If titles came out quarterly but gave us 60 plus pages, full complete stories, and at a slightly lower price point of around $8, I wonder if it would be hard in the beginning but healthier in the long run.

 

It is far easier to get people to buy full stories, and also provides an easier starting point.

Edited April 15, 2017 by drotto

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, ComicConnoisseur said:

Chuck,I think Squirrel Girl is pretty popular. I have a friend who monetizes Pinterest accounts and he was showing data, and his Squirrel Girl pins were getting twice as many views as any other characters he had on there.

So then I did some more research and it seems Squirrel Girl is also a huge seller on Amazon.com. At one time she was dominating Marvel's top trade paperbacks on there with sales.

With the upcoming Squirrel Girl and New Warriors tv show we will find this character might take off like Rocket Raccoon and Groot.

Disney will push Squirrel Girl, so yeah I think we should start taking this character seriously.

I didn't at first,but now I am. 

That's my point.

[Prince Namor]

3 hours ago, drotto said:

We can continue arguing about if the SJW aspect of current Marvel comics is the main part of declining sale or if it is something broader.

We CAN, and we WILL, because despite FACTS, people have a tendency to stick to their beliefs. 

3 hours ago, drotto said:

What seems clear to me however is that the number of comics sold industry wide does not line up withe the current popularity of super heroes and geek culture in general.

No one is arguing that. It's very clear. And has been since Iron Man's first movie sold more tickets than any Iron Man comic ever did.

3 hours ago, drotto said:

How can the best selling comic books be lucky to hit 100k? Yes, I know about the decline of printed media in general, and changing tastes in media consumption, but the numbers just do not add up.  Comic movies are making billions and are seen by millions of people.  There are more hero shows on TV and streaming then ever, attracting millions of viewers. Conventions sell out across the country. There are 6 billion plus people on the planet and all these characters have their highest name recognition ever.

Movies and Television have LONG been more popular forms of media than comic books. This isn't anything new.

And not just for superheroes. Just in general. Far more people watch the Walking Dead on TV than buy the comic. Has nothing to do with how many black or female characters are on the show, or any 'SJW' nonsense. Even at the height of speculation in the early 90's, more people watched 'X-Files' than bought the comic.

The perception of comics, and it's always been this way, is that they're for kids. Even now, there are people that don't go to these movies because, they think they're silly. (Which, looking at the majority of them... they are.) But KIDS MOVIES do booming business.

So why aren't kids buying the comics. Are kids born with a 'SJW' gene that is secretly planted there by manipulative media says, blah, blah, blah.

No.

They don't buy them because of a number of reasons.

1. Everyone's hero Jim Shooter helped DESTROY the newsstand market in a classic show of corporate greed and cut off a source of young reader nurturing that got taken over completely by TV, Movies, games, etc. At a time in their lives when kids have no money, or means to choose their method of entertainment, other than see a comic on a newsstand or convenience store rack 'Wahhh! Money I want that!", those things disappeared and the real method of brain washing kids to this colorful world (originally created for THEM, not 40 year old 'flippers') was gone.

The Direct Market made publisher's a lot more money...a lot more profit. But it squeezed our hobby into an even smaller niche, and as it has become the primary source for physical comics (since the mid 90's) comics have steadily declined in overall sales, as the means to see Movies and TV GREW larger - through more theaters, cable TV, pay on demand, and even now personal smart devices.

2. Look at who frequents the comic book store, clings to readership, and who dominates it's online discussion. White, male fan boys. That's not the case with movies, which has a much larger fan base to draw from, and much more, get ready for it, DIVERSE fan base to draw from, because it's subject matter is.... far more diverse. And has been for a much, much, much longer time.

Comic Books are DOMINATED by stories of MEN, who dress up in tight clothing to wrestle around with other men in tight clothing. And for many years this was 90% of what was available to the random consumer. The... here's this word again, DIVERSITY of CONTENT for movies, TV, books is just off the chart compared to comic books.

I know, people will say, but what about Walking Dead, or Independent.... those are still the niche within the industry. Diversity of material HAS seen growth in comics... Some publisher's have gone that route.... But walk into the average comic book store... and the message is clear as to what os the focus, by far.

3. Add into that the INCREASE in the number of choices someone has now, and then add into that the VALUE - $9.99 for a Spider-Man special issue or $9.99 for a movie, hmmm?....and comics are at a complete disadvantage. Add into that the convoluted mess each issue seems to be and how confusing it must be for the average person to figure out what's going on... no thanks.

Comics HAS gotten some new readership over the last few years in places, but it has come from areas that the publisher's are just now trying to latch onto. Digital has brought new readers, as well as trade paperbacks, two forms that, not surprisingly people can access without ever having to step foot in a comic book shop.

Why is anyone surprised comics haven't kept up with other forms of media?

Combine it's secret male bonding club stigma (and their obnoxious vocal clinging of it's dogma), with a closed off form of selling it, on top of it's lack of diverse type of genre's vs the expansion of other medias to reflect and open up to anyone and everyone in as many convenient ways to consume it as possible and....

Not a surprise at all.

3 hours ago, drotto said:

And Marvel and DC get lucky to muster 100k in sales for a top performing comic book. Where is the disconnect coming from, and what can be done to change it?

Nothing. Probably. I mean... at this point.... print will be a thing of the past in 20 to 50 years....

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, drotto said:

 

I have gotten some flack before for suggesting the entire idea of a monthly floppy may need to be revised.  I like the addiction of having that need to go to the store each Wednesday.   With that said, I will often let months of titles accumulate and then read them in bunches and runs, and that sounds the same as reading trades.  I am starting to wonder if I should switch over. I also think that maybe the industry should consider switching over.  If titles came out quarterly but gave us 60 plus pages, full complete stories, and at a slightly lower price point of around $8, I wonder if it would be hard in the beginning but healthier in the long run.

 

It is far easier to get people to buy full stories, and also provides an easier starting point.

Yeah... I think many people have and that also reflects in monthlies lower numbers.

Other comic book type cultures in the world do it differently.... the GN is the standard in Europe, though the UK I know has some regular titles, but nowhere near in the scope of what we release in the U.S. 

In Japan the regular monthlies or weeklies are whatever the schedule they're on, are still produced cheaply to mass market and sell to as many people as possible. 

But yeah, TPB's have played a big part here....

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, CAHokie said:

Chuck, you seem pretty dismissive to those that say they feel diversity is being forced. Keep in mind that even if you disagree and back it up with 60 years of statistics it doesn't matter. If a percentage of readers feel like diversity is being forced and stop shelling out money for comics it is still a valid concern for the bottom line.

I agree completely. I can tell someone, "If you jump off that bridge, you will fall into the water and drown." and show them all of the facts and the proof and statistics and previous examples and everything else.... but if they've been brainwashed to do it, or completely convinced to do it, or are just plain stubborn or overly proud, they will still jump off that bridge.

2 hours ago, CAHokie said:

A lot of people have brought up excellent reasons why sales are falling and I am sure it's just not one of them causing the sales slide but a cumulative effect. 

Totally agree. 

But, I will say, as a retailer, anyone who comes into the store complaining about 'female Thor' or 'sista Iron Man' (two of Marvel's best selling regular monthly titles, I'll remind everyone again), I ALWAYS ask.... "Were you reading it before the change?"

And I swear to god, on my life, NO ONE has ever said yes.

Kookie.

2 hours ago, CAHokie said:

I am a comic publishers dream. I have a steady subscription to 20-30 comics at all times and love to try new #1s to see if I like the storyline (not for speculation) but lately I find myself uninterested in most Marvel and DC comics..... Just about all of the reasons discussed have made me slowly cancel titles.

That is a publisher's dream! It's surprising to hear that about DC, as since Rebirth, we've seen a lot of people excited and interested in those titles, but still slowly curbing, HOW MANY they get, as DC continues to try and glut more and more (another annoying trait the big 2 regularly use).

Marvel sales in our store have been going down since our first year. The complaints I get the most are

1. nothing happening in the book

2. the same stuff happening in the book

3. rebooted again???

4. Another mini-series?

5. An Annual?

6. The art sucks.

My most consistent Marvel seller is Thor. Had the same number of people on it the first year I opened as I do now. Amazing Spider-man still sells the most copies, but it's numbers are slightly down.

[drotto]

31 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Yeah... I think many people have and that also reflects in monthlies lower numbers.

Other comic book type cultures in the world do it differently.... the GN is the standard in Europe, though the UK I know has some regular titles, but nowhere near in the scope of what we release in the U.S. 

In Japan the regular monthlies or weeklies are whatever the schedule they're on, are still produced cheaply to mass market and sell to as many people as possible. 

But yeah, TPB's have played a big part here....

I think something that hurts GN sales here is how they are presented and organized.  The GN always emphasize a story arc but give to clear indication where it falls in the MU time line.   When things are read out of order you lose context, meaning, and the threads that lead from one story to the next.

 

Now take Manga for example.  They are essentially GNs, but each is clearly marked where it fits in. Now clearly GN have the advantage that bookstore and retailers will carry them, but give readers guidance as to where to start and where to go next. The more I think about it, they should adopt similarly distribution methods to Manga.  I know that would kill us as collects but would adress many concensus listed above.

 

1. Stop the renumbered and reboot issue.

2. Get us away from these damn deconstructed stories where issue have nothing happening.  It is clear Marvel is writing everything as if it where a GN and selling us individual chapters as monthly floppies.

3. Mini series may be better excepted as one off GN stories.

4. Annals would likely die off.

5. With much different work flow for the creative teams you could hopefully keep teams together longer, and keep the A list people working.

Edited April 15, 2017 by drotto