Jim Starlin hates CGC! 3 3

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 minute ago, oakman29 said:

Funny dude.

Try not spew. Many word make Oak head hurt. Too thinky thinky. Much sorries.

[oakman29]

1 minute ago, kav said:

Poor oak he no likey likey me,me sad now.

[Ken Aldred]

6 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

My apologies for writing in complete sentences. I'll try to post more memes for you. Perhaps I can post one in the Spidey Super Stories format...?

"Easy Reader says...this post is easy to read!"

 

I wouldn't mind a Starlin sig on this classic issue...

[prez]

11 hours ago, F For Fake said:

It's one thing to disagree with Starlin's beef with CGC, but to totally dismiss the guy seems disingenuous.  He contributed enormously to the Marvel mythos which is still being very lucratively exploited to this day. 

Everybody loved Starlin when he's signing books for free. However, now that he decided to not sign any CGC books, but still free for the non-slabbing fans, which could result to some flippers / SS facilitators loosing potential scratch, he's the bad guy. 

 

[joeypost]

Do we have any PhDs. in Economics who can wrap this one up?

[Prince Namor]

31 minutes ago, joeypost said:

Do we have any PhDs. in Economics who can wrap this one up?

Don't need one. 

Financially this'll make NO DIFFERENCE in Starlin's life by not signing for CGC. 

For CGC, they may THINK it'll make no difference, but... in reality this is one more brick in the wall. 

As far as flippers, speculators and such; they'll move on to whatever else as usual. 

[Prince Namor]

And this is still MY favorite Starlin signature:

[RockMyAmadeus]

58 minutes ago, prez said:

Everybody loved Starlin when he's signing books for free. However, now that he decided to not sign any CGC books, but still free for the non-slabbing fans, which could result to some flippers / SS facilitators loosing potential scratch, he's the bad guy. 

 

I'm not sure what they would be loosing...the hounds...? Maybe the bonds of injustice?...in any event, yes, Starlin is the "bad guy", because he's cut off people from collecting in the manner they would like to collect, because of the actions of one person, unconnected to CGC, who didn't pay Jim what he agreed to pay him, regardless of why.

That is a textbook "overreaction."

This is the CGC board. People here, for the most part, collect CGC books. Part of that is the SS program.

Who do you think are the ultimate "end users" of these slabs? Right, collectors. But Starlin is just voicing the same, tired old maxim: "How you collect sucks, how I collect rules!"

No one has a problem with Jim charging. I have ALWAYS paid Jim for his signatures, even when he was NOT charging. Charging a different price for the same service is lame, weak, cheap, and greedy. Refusing to sign for a specific company (but not in general) is an overreaction.

By the way...many facilitators had a heavy hand in this debacle, and others like it. Why would they care what a creator charges? In fact, they've actively encouraged creators to charge, because it has provided them access. Nevermind that it causes submissions to go down. Nevermind that the costs to collect SS slabs spirals ever upward. Nevermind that it makes it very difficult for the little guy to do his thing. They make THEIR "cut", regardless of what it costs the customer, not realizing that they, too, are eventually going to cut off their noses to spite their faces...they're just last in the line.

Lessons here:

1. If you're a customer getting a creator's signature, and they have a donation jar, or some other form of payment is required, PAY IT. Feel free to negotiate, but don't be a cheap jerk. Donating $5 to Heroes Initiative for your stack of 25 books is CHINTZY. Donating $1 for your 5 books is CHINTZY. And don't you dare go putting just change into that bucket if you're getting ANYTHING signed.

2. If an artist signs for free, offer to BUY SOMETHING from them, if they have anything for sale. I offer to buy prints, and then tell them to please give them to kids who may pass by. This has worked very well.

3. If you negotiate a price, PAY IT.

Oak version:

"Pay dem creators four theys sigs!"

Edited May 17, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[comix4fun]

14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not sure what they would be loosing...the hounds...? Maybe the bonds of injustice?...in any event, yes, Starlin is the "bad guy", because he's cut off people from collecting in the manner they would like to collect, because of the actions of one person, unconnected to CGC, who didn't pay Jim what he agreed to pay him, regardless of why.

That is a textbook "overreaction."

This is the CGC board. People here, for the most part, collect CGC books. Part of that is the SS program.

Who do you think are the ultimate "end users" of these slabs? Right, collectors. But Starlin is just voicing the same, tired old maxim: "How you collect sucks, how I collect rules!"

No one has a problem with Jim charging. I have ALWAYS paid Jim for his signatures, even when he was NOT charging. Charging a different price for the same service is lame, weak, cheap, and greedy. Refusing to sign for a specific company (but not in general) is an overreaction.

By the way...many facilitators had a heavy hand in this debacle, and others like it. Why would they care what a creator charges? In fact, they've actively encouraged creators to charge, because it has provided them access. Nevermind that it causes submissions to go down. Nevermind that the costs to collect SS slabs spirals ever upward. Nevermind that it makes it very difficult for the little guy to do his thing. They make THEIR "cut", regardless of what it costs the customer, not realizing that they, too, are eventually going to cut off their noses to spite their faces...they're just last in the line.

Lessons here:

1. If you're a customer getting a creator's signature, and they have a donation jar, or some other form of payment is required, PAY IT. Feel free to negotiate, but don't be a cheap jerk. Donating $5 to Heroes Initiative for your stack of 25 books is CHINTZY. Donating $1 for your 5 books is CHINTZY. And don't you dare go putting just change into that bucket if you're getting ANYTHING signed.

2. If an artist signs for free, offer to BUY SOMETHING from them, if they have anything for sale. I offer to buy prints, and then tell them to please give them to kids who may pass by. This has worked very well.

3. If you negotiate a price, PAY IT.

Oak version:

"Pay dem creators four theys sigs!"

Back to Teddy KGB.... 

 

[Prince Namor]

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

I'm not sure what they would be loosing...the hounds...? Maybe the bonds of injustice?...in any event, yes, Starlin is the "bad guy", because he's cut off people from collecting in the manner they would like to collect, because of the actions of one person, unconnected to CGC, who didn't pay Jim what he agreed to pay him, regardless of why.

I don't know... I think if the guy came back and paid him, he'd still have a problem because of how he felt CGC treated him. 

He's straight out said about the guy who didn't pay: mistakes happen. 

How he felt CGC treated him is what made him mad. 

13 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Lessons here:

1. If you're a customer getting a creator's signature, and they have a donation jar, or some other form of payment is required, PAY IT. Feel free to negotiate, but don't be a cheap jerk. Donating $5 to Heroes Initiative for your stack of 25 books is CHINTZY. Donating $1 for your 5 books is CHINTZY. And don't you dare go putting just change into that bucket if you're getting ANYTHING signed.

2. If an artist signs for free, offer to BUY SOMETHING from them, if they have anything for sale. I offer to buy prints, and then tell them to please give them to kids who may pass by. This has worked very well.

Couldn't agree more. 

[F For Fake]

43 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Lessons here:

1. If you're a customer getting a creator's signature, and they have a donation jar, or some other form of payment is required, PAY IT. Feel free to negotiate, but don't be a cheap jerk. Donating $5 to Heroes Initiative for your stack of 25 books is CHINTZY. Donating $1 for your 5 books is CHINTZY. And don't you dare go putting just change into that bucket if you're getting ANYTHING signed.

2. If an artist signs for free, offer to BUY SOMETHING from them, if they have anything for sale. I offer to buy prints, and then tell them to please give them to kids who may pass by. This has worked very well.

3. If you negotiate a price, PAY IT.

Oak version:

"Pay dem creators four theys sigs!"

And here's where we agree! I don't do SS, but I do occasionally get sigs for my own books. I think that buying something at the table (a comic, a print, whatever) is a great way of breaking the ice and also showing your appreciation for their work, before you hammer them with autograph requests. 

[Ken Aldred]

Sometimes you can have a bad experience with creators or businesses, ones that many others typically consider to be quite outstanding and beyond criticism.  Even if the account told here seems to be atypical, I myself have had experiences which have conflicted with more popular opinion, and so I can’t be too negative at all towards Starlin’s response.

 

[1Cool]

"Now some of you fans out there may still want to deal with CGC. That’s your choice, no matter how I think you’re just throwing your money away. But I won’t be signing any books for them. I will do so for other authenticators, at an agreed upon price, but not CGC. I will also continue to sign books for free at cons, occasionally hitting you up for some charity.
  This is a choice for me to make and I have done so. But I really think you ought to go off and buy your own plastic sleeves to entomb your comics in and stop being suckers for this crazy scam."

We can debate if artists should charge differently for CGC SS books and we can debate if CGC should have done things differently and helped Starlin track down the guy who stiffed him but it seems crystal clear that he does not like encapsulating comics.  He says it is a scam and in previous posts says CGC is something other artists complain about.  His first angry post was very anti SS which I can understand if he was pissed.  But he sat down and thought about it and his response threw even more venom at CGC and indirectly fans of encapsulated books.  That is his right but I don't appreciate it (especially if it all revolves around 1 bad experience) and I don't want anything to do with him.  If he is so anti slabbing then why work for other authenticators at an agreed on cash grab . . I mean price.

Edited May 17, 2017 by 1Cool

[revat]

2 hours ago, prez said:

Everybody loved Starlin when he's signing books for free. However, now that he decided to not sign any CGC books, but still free for the non-slabbing fans, which could result to some flippers / SS facilitators loosing potential scratch, he's the bad guy. 

 

and what about CGC SS fans who are also Starlin fans? I don't use facilitators too much (partly because of the added cost), but mostly because I actually like getting my personal collection books signed in person, chatting with them about the book (many times not a popular or high grade book) often with a CGC SS both to encapsulate for preservation, and possibly for future (far in the future) sale.  I've got a stack of maybe 3 books I was hoping to get signed some day for CGC SS Starlin, if he would ever come to a con near me (which admittedly may never happen). None of them are 9.8's, none of them are worth more than $20 raw, and I'm not sure any of them could even be sold at a profit with CGC SS. 

But some people (a lot of people actually)( like bringing their own books (sometimes high grade or key, sometimes not) to a favorite creator, watching them sign it, chatting about it a bit, and then having that book slabbed as a happy preserved memory.  I don't think that's so unreasonable or worthy of derision by creators or and  especially not by other collectors. 

And I do understand that everyone has different stories and motivations for getting their books signed by creators, and often times (occasionally for me too) its profit,  but to just automatically assume that of all the CGC SS people to the point of exclusion or discriminatory pricing...well I'm sorry its come to that, and I wish it didn't happen.  But I also know it was most likely a few bad apples that ruin the bunch (maybe with a bit of misinformation sprinkled in??).

Personally (and I don't think  anyone will listen to me), I would set this type of policy:

1st X sigs are free.  Then $Y per comic after that, limited to Z additional comics.  NO MORE THAN TWO COPIES OF ANY GIVEN ISSUE.  Will some people still abuse it? Yes (try not to be those people), but I think its mostly fair and I don't think very few TRUE FANS will leave the table disappointed (yes I do get that there are some TRUE fans who want 200 CGC SS copies of Dreadstar 2), but they'll just have to keep getting in line again or arrange a private signing.

 

 

[revat]

1 hour ago, F For Fake said:

2 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Lessons here:

1. If you're a customer getting a creator's signature, and they have a donation jar, or some other form of payment is required, PAY IT. Feel free to negotiate, but don't be a cheap jerk. Donating $5 to Heroes Initiative for your stack of 25 books is CHINTZY. Donating $1 for your 5 books is CHINTZY. And don't you dare go putting just change into that bucket if you're getting ANYTHING signed.

2. If an artist signs for free, offer to BUY SOMETHING from them, if they have anything for sale. I offer to buy prints, and then tell them to please give them to kids who may pass by. This has worked very well.

3. If you negotiate a price, PAY IT.

Oak version:

"Pay dem creators four theys sigs!"

And here's where we agree! I don't do SS, but I do occasionally get sigs for my own books. I think that buying something at the table (a comic, a print, whatever) is a great way of breaking the ice and also showing your appreciation for their work, before you hammer them with autograph requests. 

Money is great, no doubt, and I'm certainly not advocating against paying a fee or giving a donation.  But another thing that can make the experience positive for both the creator and the customer is to try and have an honest real interaction with that person about their work or interests, even if its not specifically what you're getting signed.  Ask Todd MacF about hockey, or ask Jim Lee if any of his 35 kids are into comics, ask Starlin what editorial notes (if any) he was given on Thanos, ask Frank Cho if drawing pretty girls actually helps him get pretty girls, ask any artist or writer how often they check out stuff they did 10 or 20 years ago.  It usually doesn't take much too make a positive experience, and if CGC customers provided more positive experiences...well things would be better for the creators and other CGC customers.

[Lethal_Collector]

13 hours ago, jcjames said:

Yep. The CGC-haters butthurt cause CGC didn't give my book a 9.8 are out in full force. Beerbohm verbosely piled on as well.

 

Fixed it for ya

 

Jerome

[F For Fake]

1 hour ago, revat said:

Money is great, no doubt, and I'm certainly not advocating against paying a fee or giving a donation.  But another thing that can make the experience positive for both the creator and the customer is to try and have an honest real interaction with that person about their work or interests, even if its not specifically what you're getting signed.  Ask Todd MacF about hockey, or ask Jim Lee if any of his 35 kids are into comics, ask Starlin what editorial notes (if any) he was given on Thanos, ask Frank Cho if drawing pretty girls actually helps him get pretty girls, ask any artist or writer how often they check out stuff they did 10 or 20 years ago.  It usually doesn't take much too make a positive experience, and if CGC customers provided more positive experiences...well things would be better for the creators and other CGC customers.

All good ideas. I think a general rule of thumb of treating creators like people, and not a simple means to an end to get a thing you want (whether it's sig series, a raw sig, a piece of original art, or whatever), is a good idea all around.

[prez]

1 hour ago, revat said:

and what about CGC SS fans who are also Starlin fans? I don't use facilitators too much (partly because of the added cost), but mostly because I actually like getting my personal collection books signed in person, chatting with them about the book (many times not a popular or high grade book) often with a CGC SS both to encapsulate for preservation, and possibly for future (far in the future) sale.  I've got a stack of maybe 3 books I was hoping to get signed some day for CGC SS Starlin, if he would ever come to a con near me (which admittedly may never happen). None of them are 9.8's, none of them are worth more than $20 raw, and I'm not sure any of them could even be sold at a profit with CGC SS. 

But some people (a lot of people actually)( like bringing their own books (sometimes high grade or key, sometimes not) to a favorite creator, watching them sign it, chatting about it a bit, and then having that book slabbed as a happy preserved memory.  I don't think that's so unreasonable or worthy of derision by creators or and  especially not by other collectors. 

And I do understand that everyone has different stories and motivations for getting their books signed by creators, and often times (occasionally for me too) its profit,  but to just automatically assume that of all the CGC SS people to the point of exclusion or discriminatory pricing...well I'm sorry its come to that, and I wish it didn't happen.  But I also know it was most likely a few bad apples that ruin the bunch (maybe with a bit of misinformation sprinkled in??).

Personally (and I don't think  anyone will listen to me), I would set this type of policy:

1st X sigs are free.  Then $Y per comic after that, limited to Z additional comics.  NO MORE THAN TWO COPIES OF ANY GIVEN ISSUE.  Will some people still abuse it? Yes (try not to be those people), but I think its mostly fair and I don't think very few TRUE FANS will leave the table disappointed (yes I do get that there are some TRUE fans who want 200 CGC SS copies of Dreadstar 2), but they'll just have to keep getting in line again or arrange a private signing.

 

 

Yeah, that sucks for collectors who has the yellow label OCD. However, I don't see why these fans can't still say "hi" and have a pleasant chat with him when they see him at a show. I know, life isn't fair.

 With all the great things that Jim Starlin has done for the hobby and the enjoyment he brought to us fans, I think he deserves a little bit of our respect and understanding. 

Edited May 17, 2017 by prez

[ComicConnoisseur]

3 hours ago, comix4fun said:

Back to Teddy KGB.... 

 

Not to get off-topic,but I loved that movie Rounders.

I heard Damon is in negotiations for Rounders 2.  

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by ComicConnoisseur

[prez]

3 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Don't need one. 

Financially this'll make NO DIFFERENCE in Starlin's life by not signing for CGC. 

For CGC, they may THINK it'll make no difference, but... in reality this is one more brick in the wall. 

As far as flippers, speculators and such; they'll move on to whatever else as usual. 

After the Avengers: Infinity War movies, these flippers won't even know who Starlin is.