Jim Starlin hates CGC! 3 3

[Andahaion]

5 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Sorry to hear that  it was intimidating for me the first and even the 2nd and 3rd time. I can respect your perspective, hopefully if another artist speaks to you as proudly as Starlin, you'll give it another go round  for SS. Inexperience is the name of the game, this hobby would die out a bit without new blood.....

Hopefully your not giving up on CGC blue label, and if you do decide against grading that you can still enjoy the boards for other things.....

I appreciate your words.  I like CGC, I'm actually a paying member but haven't submitted anything yet aside from the Starlin SS at the con.  I do buy my bigger keys slabbed primarily for two reasons: restoration check and preservation.  Plus I like how they look, especially in the new cases.    

[ADAMANTIUM]

5 minutes ago, Andahaion said:

I appreciate your words.  I like CGC, I'm actually a paying member but haven't submitted anything yet aside from the Starlin SS at the con.  I do buy my bigger keys slabbed primarily for two reasons: restoration check and preservation.  Plus I like how they look, especially in the new cases.    

SS at con's does seem to be a madhouse  a lot of Hubbub  Bub  

It is possible to just talk to a facilitator and drop them off and the facilitator will take care of the hassle for you.... And sometimes it is around the same price to buy them already graded and/or SS'd

The new cases have almost spoiled me; I bought a graded comic the other day and it was in the case before the new case, and I didn't get the same oooh and ahhhh when I opened it in the mail. People knock the label on the new case, but it also is a little bit of a bolder color, add that with the pop of the comic in the new case and it looks nice. Especially compared to the old case where the comic in the case looks cloudy along with the label  

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Andahaion said:

Reading the comments on Mr. Starlin's Facebook page has been enlightening.  Maybe I'm too disengaged from the hobby, but I did not realize the vitriol some have for slabbing.  I met Starlin at Baltimore's Con in 2015.  He signed my copy of Iron Man #55 which was subsequently sent to CGC for Signature Series.  Very nice guy.  He had a can out for donations to the CBLDF and I gladly donated.  The book is proudly displayed on my small comic book case and I'm disheartened that these events have transpired in a way that appear to have been avoidable.  Hopefully all parties can come to a sensible conclusion that works for everyone.

This was my first (and probably last) experience with CGC and SS.  Lots of moving pieces, and I'm sure my inexperience was unattractive to the regulars.  

A great deal of that vitriol is because it ruined the business model of many dealers who relied on overgrading and undisclosed restoration to make money. It was nearly pandemic. There are people who paid good money in the 90's for "high grade" keys like AF #15 who STILL have not, after 20-25 years, recouped their investment because the books had undisclosed restoration.

Hell, there are people on this very board...the Comics Guaranty Co. board...people who, in some cases, are "well respected"...who have accused me of defrauding eBay sellers because I wouldn't let them get away with this. I bought ten of thousands of raw comics on eBay from 1998-2007-ish. Fully 50% of them had problems, either undisclosed restoration, or damage because of poor packing, or were just plain badly overgraded, by far the most common reason. I fought these people tooth and nail, and I was mostly right in doing so. The stuff I've gotten, which I've shared about over the years, would make one's hair curl.

 

Here's a few samples: Batman #11 (1942) in "VG/F" condition, with every single page literally broken off from every other page, broken in half parallel to the spine, because the pages were so brittle. A lot of 40 or so Silver and Bronze books that were graded "VG+" that had been in a house fire and were burnt. Ten early Bronze ASMs, including #121 and #122, that had been peed on by (a) cat(s) so badly, there were urine crystals on them. Books in "Good+, cover firmly attached" condition that had the cover detached, split in half and then taped back together...that was a Richie Muchin special, among others. TMNT #3 NYCC variant, described as "NM", that had been folded in half...the wrong way...and had those telltale severe radiating creases at the spine, rendering it a solid 7.0...and it didn't happen in shipping; the book looked like that before it was listed. A what was a beautiful FF #21, easily an 8.0, tossed into a manila envelope, which my postman folded in half...again, the wrong way...and shoved in my mailbox. A set of Rising Stars #1 golds when they first came out...described as "NM/M", that had all four corners smashed...that was a Chris Conklin venture...rendering the books a, what, 7.0? At best? Conklin essentially said "eff you."

And that wasn't restricted to raw comics. I bought a Batman #429 CGC 9.8, and the seller taped a single sheet of "standard box type" cardboard, fit to the size of the slab, on each side, and then put a label on one side and shipped it just like that. Piece of cardboard, slab, piece of cardboard. The slab, of course, was destroyed by the time it got to me. Another was a Wolverine Vol 3 #20 WW variant 9.8 that was shipped inside a 1095 box...by itself. No bubble wrap, no padding...just a slab, by itself, rattling around inside a big otherwise-empty box. It, too, was destroyed when it got to me.

House of Secrets, in Burbank, CA, is a well-known dumping ground for problem books. I bought, unknowingly, a Hulk #181 with brown (not the usual red) color touch. I ate that one. An Avengers #1 with a married 5th wrap. I nearly ate that one. On and on, because they don't care.

And it's still happening to this day. Just had to return a Detective #121 that had an undisclosed glued spine. I had to waste my time to buy it, pay for it, and then send it back. The money I paid for the snipe program? Gone, and not compensated. Sure, NOW eBay protects buyers, to a great extent...but it took an incredible amount to get here, and in the olden days, you were almost always told to take a long walk off a short pier.

 

 

 

And yet, on this very board, there have been people accusing me of fraud for not letting these sellers get away with this. On this board. For the very reason CGC exists. Think about that. You would think that people who post here would understand the problem...but, some of them are those very overgrading, restoration-undisclosing dealers, so it makes some sense.

CGC greatly mitigated these problems, to a phenomenal degree. Not because CGC is perfect, but simply because the conditions on the street were so appalling. If I buy a CGC graded book, the chances of getting what I expect are very, very high. Sure, there have been books I've gotten that were graded 9.8 that were no better than 9.4, and vice versa...but they were within the ballpark. On the street, you'd be lucky to get a book that would grade 7.5. And, 99.997% of the time, if I buy a universal CGC slab, it won't have any color touch...or missing pages...or cutouts...or glue...or, you get the idea.

And, a lot of the vitriol is from people who don't understand that the slab was invented to facilitate transactions. It was never intended to be a "permanent tomb" for anything. The fact that people use it like that isn't CGC's fault. The fact that dopes don't bother to investigate before flapping their mouths isn't CGC's fault. Every single slab can be opened, and with the old slabs, opened fairly easily. The "entombed forever in plastic" is a spurious claim...and yet, again, people who don't know what they're talking about run their mouths.

So, when someone badmouths CGC, it's necessary to consider why they are doing so. They may have a legitimate beef...and those certainly exist...or, they may just be angry that they can't screw people over as easily now. Something to consider.

Edited May 18, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[Andahaion]

@RockMyAmadeus Thank you for taking the time to lay that out, very informative.  Cheers.

[kav]

Arent SS books permanently entombed?  Cause if you take it out and appreciate it, you now have 'name written on cover'.

[NoMan]

Why is the place in Burbank a dumping ground for problem books? I mean, are problem books something the owners of HOS actively seek out for purchase?

 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by NoMan
Edited out personal experience with that shop cause I don't want the drama

[RockMyAmadeus]

2 hours ago, comix4fun said:

sSure, I was really including comments on facebook, here, in the clubs and private groups. 

I don't see how people can look at what Jim's stated and then post something like "HUZZAH!!! Down with slabbing. Congrats on fighting the good fight!!"  When it's not at all what he's said or meant or what he's stated he's doing.

However it is hilarious to see Robbie Beerbong copy and paste the same comment 16 times in the same comment thread. 

It would be one thing if Beerbong had a legitimate case that he laid out, soberly and rationally, and patiently did so until he was satisfied...but he doesn't. He just makes vitriolic posts filled with bitterness, feeling sorry for himself and all the wrongs people have committed against him, mixed with liberal doses of how great he is, and all he's done for the good of comics and humanity in general.

He's not stupid. He's got a wealth of experience. He's been in the business for decades.

But his bitterness and self-pity render whatever good might still come from him void.

And these pervicacious jags, with their "comics are meant to be READ, not ENTOMBED!!" comments...fine, dopes, OPEN THE SLAB, TAKE THE COMIC OUT, and READ IT.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by RockMyAmadeus

[RockMyAmadeus]

5 minutes ago, NoMan said:

Why is the place in Burbank a dumping ground for problem books? I mean, are problem books something the owners of HOS actively seek out for purchase?

 

 

No, they just don't care. They don't check, and if they do, it doesn't bother them.

The manager/co-owner, Eric, once demonstrated this to me one day when I saw a rather nice looking Justice League #2, and, while counting pages, discovered the last page was missing. I pointed this out to Eric, and he shrugged, and put the book back in the case. No change in price, no note that it was missing  a page...nothing.

So, of course, people buy restored and other problem books, crack them out, and sell them for a tidy profit to House of Secrets. Why not? (other than ethical considerations, which aren't a problem for many.) If I buy a color touched Hulk #181 8.5 for, what, $1,200, crack it out...they'd likely pay $2,000 or so for it, and price it at $3,000 or more. They just don't care about silly things like undisclosed restoration.

 

[NoMan]

14 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

No, they just don't care. They don't check, and if they do, it doesn't bother them.

The manager/co-owner, Eric, once demonstrated this to me one day when I saw a rather nice looking Justice League #2, and, while counting pages, discovered the last page was missing. I pointed this out to Eric, and he shrugged, and put the book back in the case. No change in price, no note that it was missing  a page...nothing.

So, of course, people buy restored and other problem books, crack them out, and sell them for a tidy profit to House of Secrets. Why not? (other than ethical considerations, which aren't a problem for many.) If I buy a color touched Hulk #181 8.5 for, what, $1,200, crack it out...they'd likely pay $2,000 or so for it, and price it at $3,000 or more. They just don't care about silly things like undisclosed restoration.

 

And I'm someone who bought one of these raw comics from House of Secrets in Burbank that had undisclosed interior damage. 

[comix4fun]

5 minutes ago, NoMan said:

And I'm someone who bought one of these raw comics from House of Secrets in Burbank that had undisclosed interior damage. 

At least they live up to their name.  

[NoMan]

2 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

At least they live up to their name.  

You know what? St Marks Comics in NYC sucks, too. As someone who got back in the hobby after a 30 year absence, I've found CGC's 3rd party grading/restoration check to be a huge value. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by NoMan

[jcjames]

1 hour ago, kav said:

Arent SS books permanently entombed?  Cause if you take it out and appreciate it, you now have 'name written on cover'.

So what? Who reads the cover? Isn't the INSIDE STORY (you know, the one everyone wants to READ) most important?

So what if there's a little marker on the cover - comics are meant to be read over and over again - not hung on a wall just to admire the pristine front cover! If you want to look at an unmarked pristine front cover, get a high-res scan and print it off and lay that over the "name written on cover" book.

 

/mode

[RockMyAmadeus]

Just now, NoMan said:

And I'm someone who bought one of these raw comics from House of Secrets in Burbank that had undisclosed interior damage. 

Not surprising, and sorry to hear that. We're a growing club, sadly.

I don't think Paul is a crook. He just doesn't care to the extent that he should.  And though he's an amiable guy, he does treat with a degree of contempt those of us to whom it matters. Eric's worse.

I spent upwards of $10,000 there in 2007...and they had an outdoor dollar book sale in October of that year. I pulled out 7 long boxes, and had to dicker to get a better price than the "buy 4, get 1 free!" price they offered everyone else...for drek. I never asked for better prices on anything else...but this was 7 long boxes of drek.

Then, I heard about it a few days later...that the guy who "helped" me complained that I was a picky cheapskate for daring to ask for a better deal than they gave to everyone off the street.

But, I didn't make an issue out of it because: addiction.

The Avengers #1 that I bought in 2010, got signed by Stan, had it come back a restored 5.5 with a married 5th wrap...and Paul would only refund my original purchase price, though he'd gotten a signed Stan slab in return...was the last straw. I haven't been back since, and I make sure to mention it when I can, so others are aware and to be vigilant if shopping there.

Frankly, I don't care if HOS goes down in (metaphorical) flames. Just another Comic Book Guy, made all the worse because Paul pretends to be such a nice guy, and outside of business, he really is, but he doesn't respect his clientele enough to be aware of this and do something about it.

I get it...there really are problem customers, who overbrowse and never buy, who complain about every little thing. But spending that kind of money at a place should...and maybe I'm more entitled than I have a right to be, perhaps...but should earn you a little bit of respect and courtesy, not "oh God, here comes that skinflint again."

You can really tell when something bothers someone, eh...?

[Jimmy Linguini]

13 hours ago, jcjames said:

How in the world do you stop someone from watching you sign your name in a public setting???

"Hey, you have a CGC lanyard - close your eyes! Hey! I ORDER you to not look at me! STOP LOOKING!"

 

It seems to have been working for Don Rosa

[Ken Aldred]

I don't believe I would've been able to deal with all of the disappointing, frustrating buying experiences which RMA described in his two recent posts.  Probably would have given up.

Admirable dedication. 

Edited May 18, 2017 by Ken Aldred

[RockMyAmadeus]

15 minutes ago, Ken Aldred said:

I don't believe I would've been able to deal with all of the disappointing, frustrating buying experiences which RMA described in his two recent posts.  Probably would have given up.

Admirable dedication. 

 

Addiction.

And, as you and many people know, most people won't say anything unless they're reallllly unhappy. Many collectors don't care.

That's why the "no one has ever had a problem with me before!" rings TRUE. Someone could consistently sell 6.5-8.0 books as "NM/M", and get away with it...and may not even be aware of it...for a very, very long time.

Hell, I bought a Strange Tales #178 in 2015 that I didn't check until a couple of months ago...too busy. Opened up the package, expecting a decent upper mid-grade book...and it's been color touched.

I won't go back to the seller and demand anything...due diligence on my part didn't happen...but I will, at some point, let them know. $30+ for a mid-grade ST #178 with color touch that's worth, what...$2 as is? My loss. How much of this happens every single day, with no one the wiser...?

That's why slabbing has been such a boon. Those of us who DO care have an outlet...and those who don't, need not be bothered with it.

Lest you think it's all bad, I'll relate a win: in 2003-ish, I bought an entire long box of every Punisher appearance from ASM #129-up to about 1995, for $300 off of eBay.

When I got it, I looked over the books...and was stunned by the breathtaking condition of #135. Far and away the nicest copy I had ever seen.

Couple of minor dings and dents that I pressed out. Subbed it at Baltimore last year...got a 9.8. Sold it for $1400.

That one book paid for the whole box, 4 times over. So, it's not all bad.

[ADAMANTIUM]

"....get more milage from a cheap pair of sneaka's....--it's still rock'n'roll to me..." glad to hear a success story every once in a while

[prez]

18 hours ago, seanfingh said:

You are coming across pretty strident.  There are a lot of people in this thread making reasonable points and posting reasonable responses that have not resorted to name calling as it relates to Jim Starlin or to other posters.

 

I wasn't the first one who threw the word "clown". Read a few pages before my initial post. I just didn't feel the need to quote the guy. 

I'll own the "keyboard warrior". I did say that towards RMA. 

 

[jsilverjanet]

It's the wins that make it addicting 

Edited May 18, 2017 by jsilverjanet

[kav]

Thats why you never want to win like $1000 in the lotto.  You'll be hooked for life and lose much more.