ComicLink Summer Featured Auction 2017 1 1

[Doc McCoy]

20 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Not only is it the top of the Andy Kubert class, but, it's also probably the most sought-after later issue of the X-Men and one of the biggest Marvel books from 1990-present in terms of back issue demand.  I'm not trying to make more of it than it is, but, it's undeniable that it's a highly sought-after, very speculated-on book with tons of interest among comic collectors/speculators of a certain age.    

I'd say Gene's argument here is pretty "Unimprovable".  I had to go and do a search to see what was on the FF 77 cover, but immediately knew UXM 266.  While everyone has their artist preferences, from a historic standpoint, I'd be hard pressed to come up with a more desired character introduction from that era of Marvel Comics.

 

3 minutes ago, rocket1312 said:

I think whatever shine Gambit had back in the 90's was lost long, long ago.

Couldn't you make the same argument for the FF?  Due to the contract with Fox, Marvel has pretty much banished them to the Negative Zone.  While Gambit was mishandled, at least he has currently been reintroduced into the X-Men fold and is featured in one of their main titles.  

[delekkerste]

10 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I don't see any way it's in the 25th percentile.   If we are simply ranking aesthetics then yes, I 100% agree.   But you've got Galactus and Surfer on the same cover, and that's something you can say about very very few covers, and leapfrogs the desirability of this cover well beyond its pure aesthetic ranking.   It's certainly still nowhere near the best Kirby cover but you have to give a nod here to subject matter

I'd agree with you if it was a single image cover with a good sized Surfer and Galactus - people would go nuts because of the rarity and resulting supply/demand imbalance.  But, two small images in a multi-scene vignette?  Not the same at all in my book - the mere presence of those two characters does not automatically lift the cover into the higher echelons of the cover rankings.  Not to me, anyway.  No different than an ASM cover dominated by a villain with a small image of Spidey.  Or, an X-Men cover with a tiny Wolverine image.  The Wolverine Tax is not equal across all covers just because he appears on them.     

Edited August 11, 2017 by delekkerste

[Bronty]

I agree with that.   Not saying it's anywhere near higher echelon.   But it's lifted considerably from where it would otherwise be  .    

[Twanj]

8 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

I'd agree with you if it was a single image cover with a good sized Surfer and Galactus - people would go nuts because of the rarity and resulting supply/demand imbalance.  But, two small images in a multi-scene vignette?  Not the same at all in my book - the mere presence of those two characters does not automatically lift the cover into the higher echelons of the cover rankings.  Not to me, anyway.  No different than an ASM cover dominated by a villain with a small image of Spidey.  Or, an X-Men cover with a tiny Wolverine image.  The Wolverine Tax is not equal across all covers just because he appears on them.     

Just looked at FF 49-100 covers.

Besides 49, 74-75 also have Galactus & Surfer on the cover. So of the four FF Kirby covers with G/SS, 77 is the "worst".

[Bronty]

There you go.   Four, just four....  that counts for something.   Exactly how much it counts for we shall see on auction day

[stinkininkin]

As flawed as it is, I'd still rather have the FF cover over the Xmen cover regardless of investment potential, and that FF cover was NEVER on my radar in any capacity.  Too lazy to type out all the reasons right now, but love hearing everyones opinions on this!

The merits and values being ascribed to the Xmen 266 cover has me free associating to something related to what Gene said about it being perhaps the most valuable post 90's Xmen cover art--if the Xmen 266 cover was offered side by side with the Xmen 268 cover, which would go for more (at auction for example)?  Hopefully my question doesn't make me come off too much like a d*ck or an artist in need of ego strokes.  I'm more curious because I've never been much of  first appearance guy and am always trying to gauge it's relative importance over aesthetics.

Scott

[Panelfan1]

So far everyone is busy comparing uxm 266 and ff 77 - but my question to you all is-

Will the reserve (feel free to guess what it is) impact the sale of 266 in a negative way?

[Bronty]

The best in class type analysis is interesting but not really relevant.    Would anyone take the best Strawberry Shortcake cover over the worst Frazetta Famous Funnies cover?    I know the answer but the point is that these sorts of comparisons are so highly subjective that I think they just cloud things more than anything.    Kirby FF covers are best compared to Kirby FF covers.   Barring that, other Kirby covers.     X-men first appearances are best compared to X-men first appearances, or barring that, classic x covers from the same era.     Trying to compare these two isn't comparing a GTX to a gallardo it's comparing a 60s Mercedes to a 90s Corvette.     They just have very little in common.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Bronty

[Bronty]

^ im not a car guy so pick apart the comparison if you like but the point is... two very different cars

[delekkerste]

5 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

As flawed as it is, I'd still rather have the FF cover over the Xmen cover regardless of investment potential, and that FF cover was NEVER on my radar in any capacity.  Too lazy to type out all the reasons right now, but love hearing everyones opinions on this!

The merits and values being ascribed to the Xmen 266 cover has me free associating to something related to what Gene said about it being perhaps the most valuable post 90's Xmen cover art--if the Xmen 266 cover was offered side by side with the Xmen 268 cover, which would go for more (at auction for example)?  Hopefully my question doesn't make me come off too much like a d*ck or an artist in need of ego strokes.  I'm more curious because I've never been much of  first appearance guy and am always trying to gauge it's relative importance over aesthetics.

Scott

The UXM #268 cover would fetch double or more of what the #266 would.  Outside of the X-Men #1 quad-cover, #268 is the 2nd favorite Lee/Williams piece, period, for a lot of fans/collectors.  $250K is the absolute floor on that one.  

And, I agree that the #266 would be worth more if it had been drawn by Lee/Williams instead of Kubert.  It's a cover where the cover artist doesn't matter as much due to the subject matter, but, it still matters somewhat. 

[rocket1312]

2 minutes ago, Doc McCoy said:

Couldn't you make the same argument for the FF?  Due to the contract with Fox, Marvel has pretty much banished them to the Negative Zone.  While Gambit was mishandled, at least he has currently been reintroduced into the X-Men fold and is featured in one of their main titles.  

Fair enough, but the FF still has the overwhelming weight of history on their side.  Even as a huge 90's X-Men fan, I have a difficult time coming up with a Gambit story that mattered.  You could wipe his character from Marvel history and I'm not sure much would change other than Rogue having to find a new on-again/off-again boyfriend.  The FF may be marginalized now, but they will always matter.  I also fully expect them to have another run in the spotlight at some point.  The Disney/Fox stuff won't go on forever.

[delekkerste]

6 minutes ago, Bronty said:

The best in class type analysis is interesting but not really relevant.    Would anyone take the best Strawberry Shortcake cover over the worst Frazetta Famous Funnies cover?    I know the answer but the point is that these sorts of comparisons are so highly subjective that I think they just cloud things more than anything.    Kirby FF covers are best compared to Kirby FF covers.   Barring that, other Kirby covers.     X-men first appearances are best compared to X-men first appearances, or barring that, classic x covers from the same era.     Trying to compare these two isn't comparing a GTX to a gallardo it's comparing a 60s Mercedes to a 90s Corvette.     They just have very little in common.

I explicitly said that it's only relevant to a certain caliber of comic art, and that the best cover by a D-list artist for a D-list title/character is obviously not relevant.

To anyone who knows cars, Nissan GT-R vs. Lambo Gallardo is absolutely a fair and relevant comparison to two high-end pieces of OA.  I didn't pull that example out of my azz, it was an analogy originally published in a major car magazine (minus the OA reference of course)!  Don't have to only compare same car marques or covers from the same title by the same artist.   

Edited August 11, 2017 by delekkerste

[delekkerste]

19 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I agree with that.   Not saying it's anywhere near higher echelon.   But it's lifted considerably from where it would otherwise be  .    

Yes, it's been elevated from the 10th percentile to the 35th percentile! 

[stinkininkin]

8 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

The UXM #268 cover would fetch double or more of what the #266 would.  Outside of the X-Men #1 quad-cover, #268 is the 2nd favorite Lee/Williams piece, period, for a lot of fans/collectors.  $250K is the absolute floor on that one.  

And, I agree that the #266 would be worth more if it had been drawn by Lee/Williams instead of Kubert.  It's a cover where the cover artist doesn't matter as much due to the subject matter, but, it still matters somewhat. 

Interesting, but I threw up in my mouth a little bit.  I remember selling the Xmen 268 cover for $650.  

Scott

[rocket1312]

6 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

The UXM #268 cover would fetch double or more of what the #266 would.  Outside of the X-Men #1 quad-cover, #268 is the 2nd favorite Lee/Williams piece, period, for a lot of fans/collectors.  $250K is the absolute floor on that one.  

And, I agree that the #266 would be worth more if it had been drawn by Lee/Williams instead of Kubert.  It's a cover where the cover artist doesn't matter as much due to the subject matter, but, it still matters somewhat. 

It's funny, I don't disagree with you, but what is it about that #268 cover that makes it so popular/memorable?  It only has one X-Man on it and while Cap is Cap, it's not like Black Widow was a particularly hot character at the time.  No one's really doing anything.  They're just sort of standing there.  Is it because the story is so memorable?  Is it because it was the first Lee/Williams cover as the regular art team?  Either way, I would think at the very least #274 and #275 would give it a run for it's money.

[delekkerste]

5 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

Interesting, but I threw up in my mouth a little bit.  I remember selling the Xmen 268 cover for $650.  

Scott

 

I guess one benefit for those of us who got into this hobby in the 2000s or 2010s is that we don't have any comparably sized regrets.  

[delekkerste]

3 minutes ago, rocket1312 said:

It's funny, I don't disagree with you, but what is it about that #268 cover that makes it so popular/memorable?  It only has one X-Man on it and while Cap is Cap, it's not like Black Widow was a particularly hot character at the time.  No one's really doing anything.  They're just sort of standing there.  Is it because the story is so memorable?  Is it because it was the first Lee/Williams cover as the regular art team?  Either way, I would think at the very least #274 and #275 would give it a run for it's money.

Just as there are actually fewer Byrne/Austin X-Men covers than people remember (given that many of the covers during the run were done by Cockrum and fill-in artists/inkers), there are actually a lot fewer Lee/Williams UXM and X-Men covers than you would think.  The X-Men #1 gatefold cover is obviously Lee/Williams' best-known collaboration and surely the most valuable of their work.  What's #2, though?  Probably either the best Hush cover or the next best UXM/X-Men example.  For those of us who prefer the X-Men work (I'm in this camp, though I do think the Hush collaboration better represents Lee/Williams at the very peak of their artistic abilities), it's got to be the UXM #268 cover.  

There are arguably examples with better content (more action, more X-Men, etc.)  But, it's like you said - everybody remembers and loves the #268 cover and story.  I know there are BSDs who have a mad hard-on for the #268 and have a pretty good sense of what they'd pony up for it (re:  I didn't pull that $250K number out of thin air).  I doubt they'd pay as much (let alone more) for the #274, 275 or any other of the Lee/Williams X-Men covers excepting the gatefold #1.  

[Hekla]

Comiclink has to feel good. On the day of the Summer HA auction, the biggest CGC OA discussion is about an auction that doesn't start for another 19 days.

 

... or this is a good diversion tactic by some board members to keep attention away from the current auction

[rocket1312]

4 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Just as there are actually fewer Byrne/Austin X-Men covers than people remember (given that many of the covers during the run were done by Cockrum and fill-in artists/inkers), there are actually a lot fewer Lee/Williams UXM and X-Men covers than you would think.  The X-Men #1 gatefold cover is obviously Lee/Williams' best-known collaboration and surely the most valuable of their work.  What's #2, though?  Probably either the best Hush cover or the next best UXM/X-Men example.  For those of us who prefer the X-Men work (I'm in this camp, though I do think the Hush collaboration better represents Lee/Williams at the very peak of their artistic abilities), it's got to be the UXM #268 cover.  

There are arguably examples with better content (more action, more X-Men, etc.)  But, it's like you said - everybody remembers and loves the #268 cover and story.  I know there are BSDs who have a mad hard-on for the #268 and have a pretty good sense of what they'd pony up for it (re:  I didn't pull that $250K number out of thin air).  I doubt they'd pay as much (let alone more) for the #274, 275 or any other of the Lee/Williams X-Men covers excepting the gatefold #1.  

Remember that #275 is also a gatefold.  While the image itself isn't as memorable as #268, I would think the size alone would push it over.  I do agree that #274 probably wouldn't surpass #268, but I put them both in the upper tier of Lee/Williams X-Men and about even in terms of recognition factor.  No Wolverine is a minus, but Magneto/Rogue might make up for that.  I know I like the #274 cover better, but that doesn't mean much.   All things being equal, I'd take the X-Men #3 cover over all of them, but that's purely a nostalgia thing on my part.

[Bronty]

26 minutes ago, rocket1312 said:

It's funny, I don't disagree with you, but what is it about that #268 cover that makes it so popular/memorable?  It only has one X-Man on it and while Cap is Cap, it's not like Black Widow was a particularly hot character at the time.  No one's really doing anything.  They're just sort of standing there.  Is it because the story is so memorable?  Is it because it was the first Lee/Williams cover as the regular art team?  Either way, I would think at the very least #274 and #275 would give it a run for it's money.

I feel the same way tbh.   I get that some people love the cover or what have you, but I'd put in the 35th percentile  of well.. xmen covers overall.      As you say, they are standing around.   Cap's there.   Hmm.  Ooookay.

(please don't light the torches I get people like it and that's fine I'll just never be a huge fan of it or understand paying even 20% of the number being tossed around).