Why comic OA is better than fine art 1 1

[kav]

I submit that if a photo of a crucifix in urine or an white canvas is 'art', then so is a photo of an outhouse, a bug, my aunt Gretel, a blue canvas, a red canvas, any canvas, a rock....the list goes on.

[1950's war comics]

55 minutes ago, kav said:

Here's another incredible work of 'art' at the Museum of Modern 'Art':

Pure stupidity, we have a modern art museum in a campus town with like this inside it

[kav]

11 minutes ago, 1950's war comics said:

Pure stupidity, we have a modern art museum in a campus town with like this inside it

You cant pose as better than others if they 'get it'...so you hang nonsense and when people say 'nonsense', then you get to smirk at them with your buddies because they dont 'get it'.  Only in the world of the arts will this work.  A mechanic cannot say install a stalk of celery into your engine and when it still doesnt run just smirk that you dont 'get it'.  Nor could a surgeon remove a hand and sew it onto someone's forehead and be celebrated with flutes of champagne at his 'opening'.

Edited August 28, 2017 by kav

[1950's war comics]

In the museum i mentioned there is in all reality NOT ONE piece of art that a 5th grader could not have done, i could give countless examples , but here is one

someone  decided to halfway melt about 500 pairs of dentures into a 20 foot long snake like thing and call it art.  it took up an entire large room and i watched for awhile as 100% of the people walked into the room , looked at it for about  5 seconds and left, it was completely unremarkable as was/is everything else in the museum, but this college town is pushing this "spoon" as modern art

[kav]

28 minutes ago, 1950's war comics said:

someone  decided to halfway melt about 500 pairs of dentures into a 20 foot long snake like thing

Maybe they were trying to take a bite out of crime.

[kav]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3609779/What-spectacle-Student-glasses-floor-pretended-art-people-immediately-started-cooing-taking-pictures.html

[AnkurJ]

One major factor that has and will continue to cause comic art to rise in value is nostalgia. It has led Jim Lee X-Men and McFarlane Spider-Man art to explode over the last 10 to 15 years. Is there nostalgia in the fine art market? Perhaps in some, such as illustration art from the 30's and 40's but even that isn't considered "fine" art. The question I always wonder is, how long will nostalgia continue to drive comic art? At some point those of us who read comics in the 80s/90s will be gone. Will the market correct at that point?

It seems to me that those buying multi million dollar pieces of at are those who obviously have a large dispensable income and enjoy the art. Do the markets have manipulation? Sure. Do the super rich care? Probably not.....

[kav]

10 minutes ago, AnkurJ said:

One major factor that has and will continue to cause comic art to rise in value is nostalgia. It has led Jim Lee X-Men and McFarlane Spider-Man art to explode over the last 10 to 15 years. Is there nostalgia in the fine art market? Perhaps in some, such as illustration art from the 30's and 40's but even that isn't considered "fine" art. The question I always wonder is, how long will nostalgia continue to drive comic art? At some point those of us who read comics in the 80s/90s will be gone. Will the market correct at that point?

It seems to me that those buying multi million dollar pieces of at are those who obviously have a large dispensable income and enjoy the art. Do the markets have manipulation? Sure. Do the super rich care? Probably not.....

GA books are still strong and the people collecting them weren't born when they hit the stands I don't think there will be a correction.  I was no where near around in the GA and I want those books like crazy-I just cant afford them.

Edited August 28, 2017 by kav

[AnkurJ]

25 minutes ago, kav said:

GA books are still strong and the people collecting them weren't born when they hit the stands I don't think there will be a correction.  I was no where near around in the GA and I want those books like crazy-I just cant afford them.

True. However social media and movies have made these characters much more globally recognized than ever before. New collectors are born every day due to the movies, not due to current comics. When the movies stop, the nostalgia factor will slow down in my opinion. Things don't just keep going up. Like all things, there will be a cycle where art and comics will trend down.

[kav]

Just now, AnkurJ said:

True. However social media and movies have made these characters much more globally recognized than ever before. New collectors are born every day due to the movies, not due to current comics. When the movies stop, the nostalgia factor will slow down in my opinion. Things don't just keep going up. Like all things, there will be a cycle where art and comics will trend down.

Well there are no Planet Comics, Venus, or Jo-Jo movies and those are 3 of the titles I most desire!!!  

[SquareChaos]

54 minutes ago, kav said:

Well there are no Planet Comics, Venus, or Jo-Jo movies and those are 3 of the titles I most desire!!!  

If we could do a scientifically accurate poll, I wonder what the age ranges of collectors interested in those books and art would look like?

My guess is that it would skew heavily 50+ and be nearly empty under say... 40.  That is just a guess though - real data would be nice.\

 

Re: "modern art" - sure, in my opinion, a canvas totally filled by a single color (or completely blank) is a hard sell as art, but I think it is pretty easy to come up with an argument or three around @kav's "pee Christ" example. I am not claiming that the piece is particularly deep or spectacular (taking something holy and debasing it is so cliched), but the arguments can be made. I've personally never heard a rational explanation as to why a blank canvas should be taken as art.

[delekkerste]

3 hours ago, kav said:

GA books are still strong and the people collecting them weren't born when they hit the stands I don't think there will be a correction.  I was no where near around in the GA and I want those books like crazy-I just cant afford them.

No, but almost zero people decide to just take up GA collecting without first having entered the gateway of reading/collecting the current comics of the day.  To the extent that broad macro trends and events over the past 20-25 years have resulted in fewer young people getting into buying physical comic books, fewer and fewer people will get into collecting GA in the future, IMO.  These trends (cultural, demographic, technological, financial) I speak of will, over the long run, dwarf the impact of comic movies and TV shows, which have largely created superhero movie fans and energized existing/lapsed comic collectors, more than they have created new ones. 

 

I think it is virtually a metaphysical certainty that we will see a secular decline in both back issue comic and OA collecting at some point in most of our lifetimes. 

Someone needs to find and bump the $35 Million Lichtenstein thread in this sub-Forum, as we have already covered all of this fine art criticism in that thread. 

[kav]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

No, but almost zero people decide to just take up GA collecting without first having entered the gateway of reading/collecting the current comics of the day.  To the extent that broad macro trends and events over the past 20-25 years have resulted in fewer young people getting into buying physical comic books, fewer and fewer people will get into collecting GA in the future, IMO.  These trends (cultural, demographic, technological, financial) I speak of will, over the long run, dwarf the impact of comic movies and TV shows, which have largely created superhero movie fans and energized existing/lapsed comic collectors, more than they have created new ones. 

 

I think it is virtually a metaphysical certainty that we will see a secular decline in both back issue comic and OA collecting at some point in most of our lifetimes. 

Someone needs to find and bump the $35 Million Lichtenstein thread in this sub-Forum, as we have already covered all of this fine art criticism in that thread. 

If true wouldn't all antiques, books, guns, furniture etc eventually phase out and drop in value to almost nil as folks died out?  This hasn't happened.  GA Comic books are essentially a subset of the antiques market.

Edited August 28, 2017 by kav

[mtlevy1]

Can't remember where I saw this article but essentially it said the reason per-raphaelite / similar art 'died out' was that it took to long to create an artwork - with modern art you can churn out paintings faster so dealers said, I like to market and sell modern art - it is a better business model - actually quite awesome really from that perspective

To me, art can be idea or craft or both - idea can be fast once the idea is conceptualized but art with craft can't be churned out the same way.  If I can't have idea+craft, I prefer craft only to idea only

Mark

Edited August 28, 2017 by mtlevy1
grammar

[kav]

3 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

If we could do a scientifically accurate poll, I wonder what the age ranges of collectors interested in those books and art would look like?

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/420947-poll-age-of-people-who-collect-ga-or-want-to-collect-ga/

[kav]

10 minutes ago, mtlevy1 said:

actually quite awesome really from that perspective

Yes it's awesome if someone can churn out hundreds of works a day by spitting on canvases and calling it art.  Also the quicker you can do something and the more people can do it that's also good.  i guess you don't consider Jackson Pollock a modern artist as it took him up to 6 months to complete a painting.

Edited August 28, 2017 by kav

[delekkerste]

49 minutes ago, kav said:

If true wouldn't all antiques, books, guns, furniture etc eventually phase out and drop in value to almost nil as folks died out?  This hasn't happened.  GA Comic books are essentially a subset of the antiques market.

They ARE dying out.  Do you watch Antiques Roadshow? Those "then and now" episodes show most of that stuff like Revolutionary Era furniture has stagnated or declined since the late 90s.  Most of that stuff stopped appreciating long ago. 

[kav]

1 minute ago, delekkerste said:

They ARE dying out.  Do you watch Antiques Roadshow? Those "then and now" episodes show most of that stuff like Revolutionary Era furniture has stagnated or declined since the late 90s.  Most of that stuff stopped appreciating long ago. 

But isnt there still plenty of valuable stuff with fluctuations sure but a cannon say from the age of Napolean is worth $$ it hasn't died out.  Gutenberg bible still worth big bucks etc.  Furniture seems to be the most volatile what about books?  I'm not an expert here.

[kav]

I mean I can see a situation in 100 years where action #1 is worth 12 million sure but its value has stagnated and its not growing.  But its still worth a lot.  I dont see GA comics as becoming nearly worthless, ever.  Or even mildly worthless.

[delekkerste]

23 minutes ago, kav said:

But isnt there still plenty of valuable stuff with fluctuations sure but a cannon say from the age of Napolean is worth $$ it hasn't died out.  Gutenberg bible still worth big bucks etc.  Furniture seems to be the most volatile what about books?  I'm not an expert here.

Most of the categories you mention are in secular stagnation now at best, with some in outright secular decline.  Think about what will happen to the antiques market and other hobbies favored by the Baby Boomers, some Gen Xers and the remnants of the Greatest Generation. Trust me, kids today aren't going to grow up wanting Revolutionary War furniture, Tiffany lamps or 99.999% of books and stamps.

 

I'm not saying that no one will be interested, but it will be fewer people with less money and more scattered interests. Prices will have to fall for markets to clear. Beyond obvious. 

 

Edited August 28, 2017 by delekkerste