Amazon's THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RINGS OF POWER (2022) 5 5

[mephistopheles]

This series is an abomination on every level. I couldn't make it past episode 2. Critical Drinker and Woke Critic roasting the episodes is better than the actual show.

[kimik]

I thought Jackson did a decent job with LoTR - the Hobbit focused parts in the book were always my least favourite. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 7:46 AM, kimik said:

I thought Jackson did a decent job with LoTR - the Hobbit focused parts in the book were always my least favourite. 

LOTR is a story told through the eyes of Hobbits.  They are the main characters and heroes. Jackson stripped them of their solo adventure and heroic moments by (1) eliminating the Bombadil and Barrows scenes, (2) giving Frodo's heroic key heroic moment to Arwen, and (3) eliminating the Scouring of the Shire.  There can be no dispute that those are major major changes.  And not good ones as far as the theme of the book.  Despite that, I loved the movies almost as much as the books (but not as much) because they are a visual and musical triumph (things you don't get with books).  

The changes to the Hobbit were more profound. The addition of new characters and interracial romances, new back history for Legolas, a rabbit driven sled for Radagast (what?), and a complete change in tone for the work to make it consistent with LOTR when it was always intended to be for a younger audience. 

Those changes were much more profound to the core of Tolkien's mythology than anything happening in RoP because RoP deals with a nearly blank canvas by comparison to the movies of fully completed works in Tolkien's own hand.

Edited October 18, 2022 by sfcityduck

[drotto]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:42 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jackson was “ghosted”? 

First, WETA FX did the special effects.

Second, it was not Jackson’s project. He has his own priorities.

Third, Jackson butchered the LOTR and Hobbit, finished books cast in stone, far far more than anything RoP has done to the sketches and unfinished tales and notes which are its source material - so why would you want him involved if you are such a purist?

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/peter-jackson-amazon-lord-of-the-rings-tv-series-1235193692/

https://boundingintocomics.com/2022/07/18/rumor-the-lord-of-the-rings-scholar-tom-shippey-fired-for-telling-prime-video-they-were-polluting-the-lore/

 

You are not the pre-eminant expert on this show or Tolkien.  Many many people disagree with you.   You seem to take such great offense when people post anything contrary to your views, with supporting evidence.   People are making valid points, and are allowed to have a different oppinion. 

[kimik]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:12 AM, sfcityduck said:

LOTR is a story told through the eyes of Hobbits.  They are the main characters and heroes. Jackson stripped them of their solo adventure and heroic moments by (1) eliminating the Bombadil and Barrows scenes, (2) giving Frodo's heroic key heroic role to Arwen, and (3) eliminating the Scouring of the Shire.  There can be no dispute that those are major major changes.  And not good ones as far as the theme of the book.  Despite that, I loved the movies almost as much as the books (but not as much) because they are a visual and musical triumph (things you don't get with books).  

The changes to the Hobbit were more profound. The addition of new characters and interracial romances, new back history for Legolas, a rabbit driven sled for Radagast (what?), and a complete change in tone for the work to make it consistent with LOTR when it was always intended to be for a younger audience. 

Those changes were much more profound to the core of Tolkien's mythology than anything happening in RoP because RoP deals with a nearly blank canvas by comparison to the movies of fully completed works in Tolkien's own hand.

That is a problem with any adaptation - some parts of the book/original story need to be cut. I was fine with what they cut/changed in both trilogies as the end product was great (except for the battle in the Battle of Five Armies, I guess - that was no how I had pictured it reading the books ).

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 8:15 AM, drotto said:

Many many people disagree with you.   

Many many people also agree with my views. But that does not matter in a discussion like this. It is not a popularity contest. It's a discussion and you have to support your points with something other than "many people say" assertions.

Jackson doesn't say he was ghosted that's just a sensational headline.  What he states is far different and it is important to realize it was about four to five years ago before scripting even began:

“They asked me if I wanted to be involved — [writer-producer Fran Walsh] and I — and I said, ‘That’s an impossible question to answer without seeing a --script,'” Jackson recalled to Scott Feinberg on The Hollywood Reporter’s Awards Chatter podcast. “So they said, ‘As soon as we get the first couple scripts, we’ll send them to you.’ And the scripts never showed up. That’s the last thing I heard, which is fine. No complaints at all.”

Amazon responded:

“In pursuing the rights for our show, we were obligated to keep the series distinct and separate from the films. We have the utmost respect for Peter Jackson and The Lord of The Rings films and are thrilled that he is looking forward to watching The Rings of Power.”

Jackson's final comment:

“I’ll be watching it,” he says. “I’m not the sort of guy who wishes ill will. Filmmaking is hard enough. If somebody makes a good film or TV show, it’s something to celebrate. The one thing I am looking forward to is actually seeing it as a perfectly neutral viewer.”

Reading between the lines, this sounds like this was about the Tolkien Estate and ensuring there were no rights violations, not Amazon, and Jackson only was initially approached for limited involvement anyway.

As for Tom Shippey (who?): Are you really linking a Youtube rumor monger and ignoring the Vanity Fair reporting ("Shippey was canned for giving an “unsanctioned interview to a German fan site” where he opined “on what the show could and could not explore”)?  LOL!  We can all choose our sources, but some are more credible than others.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Mr Sneeze]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:46 AM, kimik said:

I thought Jackson did a decent job with LoTR - the Hobbit focused parts in the book were always my least favourite. 

I think Jackson did a good job making a trilogy that paid it’s debts and went on to turn a profit. The more divorced from the source material one is, the better the movies seem. They have not aged well with me, especially the gutting of Gandalfs character to the point of utter ridiculousness. It’s a shame because it didn’t have to be that way.

That said, the death of Borimir is a remarkable and beautiful scene ( The Fellowship is by far the best adaptation Imho) as is the scene with Eyowin, Merry and the Witchking.

Another thing that saves Jacksons loth trilogy is the cast.

I can’t even talk about the Hobbit. 

[drotto]

On 10/18/2022 at 12:28 PM, Mr Sneeze said:

I think Jackson did a good job making a trilogy that paid it’s debts and went on to turn a profit. The more divorced from the source material one is, the better the movies seem. They have not aged well with me, especially the gutting of Gandalfs character to the point of utter ridiculousness. It’s a shame because it didn’t have to be that way.

That said, the death of Borimir is a remarkable and beautiful scene ( The Fellowship is by far the best adaptation Imho) as is the scene with Eyowin, Merry and the Witchking.

Another thing that saves Jacksons loth trilogy is the cast.

I can’t even talk about the Hobbit. 

I think we can all agree the Hobbit trilogy is a mess.  Prefect example of less is more at times. 

[ianh]

What Jackson did with LoTR and the Hobbit did not change the storyline a huge amount. People point to the removal of Tom and giving Glorfindel deeds to Aragorn and Arwen but for me it doesn't change the story that  much for me. The Hobbits are still the main heroes or do people choose to ignore the fact that Aragorn as King bowed to them and told them they bow to no one? This does and it does it in the all mighty name of wokeness to prop up a strong female lead and purposely make men look inferior in the process. That is the current agenda is seems in this country after all. Jackson had three very strong female characters and it worked. This doesn't imo.

The problem with Tolkien's work is yes there is so much that is to interpretation and having several books published after his death by his son also complicate the matter but the main outline of the Second Age is covered in LoTR and they are changing it to such a degree to prop up Galadriel and then add things that expressly happened in the Third Age to make it cool I guess....

In 1966 Tolkien received a letter form a fan with their intention to write a sequel to LoTR. He sent that letter to his publisher with some not so nice words about the writer at the time and asked them to get legal involved to stop it. That is how he felt about people adding to his story and RoP bastardizes it for me.

And someone said Elrond met Celebrian in the Third Age and that is false. He met her in the Second Age when Galadriel and her went to Rivendell looking for Celeborn which people use to point to a time where they were apart. That of course is completely different then making it so Celeborn wasn't in the Second Age at all which is what the agenda seems to be here to again make Galadriel the main protagonist. Ridiculous.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:45 AM, ianh said:

This does and it does it in the all mighty name of wokeness to prop up a strong female lead and purposely make men look inferior in the process. That is the current agenda is seems in this country after all.

 

On 10/18/2022 at 7:43 AM, mephistopheles said:

Woke Critic roasting the episodes is better than the actual show.

Very revealing comments.  

 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:45 AM, ianh said:

 

And someone said Elrond met Celebrian in the Third Age and that is false. He met her in the Second Age when Galadriel and her went to Rivendell looking for Celeborn which people use to point to a time where they were apart. That of course is completely different then making it so Celeborn wasn't in the Second Age at all which is what the agenda seems to be here to again make Galadriel the main protagonist. Ridiculous. 

 

What are you basing your opinion on? Appendix B of the LOTR states Elrond did not wed Celeborn until Third Age 100.  There is no discussion of Galadriel and Celeborn visiting Imladris in Appendix B.  If it is another Appendix let me know. So the LOTR is silent on the subject and all we've got is the unfinished tales, sketches and notes which are contradictory and inconsistent. 

Worth mentioning that Tolkien stated in at least some of those unfinished tales, sketches, and notes that Galadriel was perceived by Sauron as the most formidable adversary around the time when he was attempting to subvert the elves and forge the rings. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:45 AM, ianh said:

 

In 1966 Tolkien received a letter form a fan with their intention to write a sequel to LoTR. He sent that letter to his publisher with some not so nice words about the writer at the time and asked them to get legal involved to stop it. That is how he felt about people adding to his story and RoP bastardizes it for me.

 

You need to put his letters in context to understand them. In 1966 Tolkien was incredibly focused upon and upset with copyright violators because the prior year (1965) ACE had published unauthorized paperbacks of the Lord of the Rings. Furthermore, at that time he had commenced work on his own sequel to the Lord of the Rings - something he ultimately decided would not work but which he certainly would not have wanted another to publish. Ultimately, he viewed his mythology as ending with the Elves departure from Middle Earth and had no desire to see sequels. His desire was for the backstory to be filled in. And that's what his son and Guy Gavriel Kay did a few years after his death, and what RoP is doing now. 

 

[drotto]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:38 PM, sfcityduck said:

You need to put his letters in context to understand them. In 1966 Tolkien was incredibly focused upon and upset with copyright violators because the prior year (1965) ACE had published unauthorized paperbacks of the Lord of the Rings. Furthermore, at that time he had commenced work on his own sequel to the Lord of the Rings - something he ultimately decided would not work but which he certainly would not have wanted another to publish. Ultimately, he viewed his mythology as ending with the Elves departure from Middle Earth and had no desire to see sequels. His desire was for the backstory to be filled in. And that's what his son and Guy Gavriel Kay did a few years after his death, and what RoP is doing now. 

 

So you are saying people Tolkien himself picked and gave his blessing to fill out the story, are the same as hired showrunners working for a multibillion dollar corporation that just paid $250 million for rights?  I would think the people that knew him, or scholars that have spent decades studying his works, are far more knowledgeable concerning what Tolkien would want, rather than the showrunners. Two showrunners, that have very few credits to their name, and are saying being fans of Tolkien makes them experts. You are saying what they have done in season 1 of RoP is clearly and definitively what Tolkien would have wanted, despite experts who either knew or extensively study him have said otherwise.

 

If that is true, then we are never going to agree on this.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/18/2022 at 11:45 AM, drotto said:

So you are saying people Tolkien himself picked and gave his blessing to fill out the story, are the same as hired showrunners working for a multibillion dollar corporation that just paid $250 million for rights?  I would think the people that knew him, or scholars that have spent decades studying his works, are far more knowledgeable concerning what Tolkien would want, rather than the showrunners. Two showrunners, that have very few credits to their name, and are saying being fans of Tolkien makes them experts. You are saying what they have done in season 1 of RoP is clearly and definitively what Tolkien would have wanted, despite experts who either knew or extensively study him have said otherwise.

 

If that is true, then we are never going to agree on this.

I don't expect us to agree.  But conversation can still be interesting with folks who don't share your views - often more so.

Tolkien viewed the core of his mythology as three works: (1) The Hobbit (which he viewed as younger reader material), (2) The LOTR (which he viewed as his masterpiece), and (3) The Silmarillion (which he viewed as the background "cosmogonic" Genesis type story).  He never finished the Silmarillion.  His son and Guy Gavriel Kay put that together. The rights to the Silmarillion have not been sold to my knowledge. I am sure that his Estate views the Silmarillion as being more important than the Second Age which clearly falls into the unfinished tales, notes, and sketches category. So, "No," I would not equate Tolkien's son to the present crop of creators working on the Rings of Power.  Tolkien is long dead and this is tangential stuff, not something that Tolkien had hoped to complete in his lifetime.

What I am saying is that Tolkien had the confidence to put his mythology out into the world and let others fill in the unfinished tales and sketches.  That is what he wanted.  He couldn't see what would come of it.  He didn't claim to know what he himself would write. The Ents, for example, were a total surprise to him when he wrote them.  He tried out and rejected many many ideas and versions of stories over the years. He was smart and sophisticated enough to know that other creators who came after him could take his untold stories in directions he didn't envision (or didn't care to envision or to make the effort). And he was ok, even pleased, by that prospect because it would mean that he had succeeded in creating an enduring mythology.

Hope this helps. No one thinks that Tolkien could foresee the future activities by other creators. But he sure could state his then present intent to let it happen.

So here's my question to you: What "Tolkien experts" disagree with the notion that Tolkien was open to subsequent creators adding to his mythology?

Edited October 18, 2022 by sfcityduck

[I like pie]

Damn. There's logical debating going on in here. Must be Friday

[The Commissioner]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:27 PM, I like pie said:

Damn. There's logical debating going on in here. Must be Friday

Maybe we should make a Rings of Power Appreciation thread 

[The Commissioner]

[The Commissioner]

Honestly, I love to see how passionate people are about Tolkien's work.

The good thing about the books, movies, and TV shows, is that it brings more fans to the table with something to enjoy.

If you don't like something that was created (i.e. The Rings of Power), that's okay, but someone else might really enjoy it and that might introduce them to Middle-Earth, which I think is something we can all agree is a positive thing. 

We all can enjoy Tolkien's work in our own way, regardless of which medium it is. 

[zuckuss2003]

I've read most of the books, The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien. Some, like the LOTR, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion I've read many times. Tolkien gave us Middle Earth, a fantastic world with a rich history of explicit detail, but also so much was left for each of our imaginations to fill in at the same time.

I loved the ROP show. It was a perfect mix of original lore filled in with a new creators vision on the untold bits. Some of the filling in was pretty close to my own imagination of what previously unseen characters, places and items like the rings would look like. 

Did ROP play a little loosely with some previously documented timelines and histories? Sure, but I'm not going to hold that against this show that excels at capturing the good versus evil / corruption versus hope aspects of the history of Middel Earth. Visually stunning locations and elves that displayed the strength and determination that would surely come from being centuries, or for some thousands, of years old were exactly what I needed. Can't wait to see where it goes from here.

[Bosco685]

At least it is now a week later.