Which key issues that are currently undervalued in your opinion? 8 8

[da.amazing.spiderman]

On 12/25/2021 at 6:21 PM, MAR1979 said:

It's not Marvel thus demand may have already peaked?  Buying now at current asking rate represents future wallet-ache.

Your honesty in the first sentence is refreshing. You clearly have bias towards the book on your part but betting on DC+DCEU is almost always a losing proposition. Smart money speculates on Bronze/Copper/Modern Marvel and never on DC and certainly never ever on a DCUE appearance.  Black Adam/The Rock being the most notable outlier.

 

Many of your points are valid with regards to speculating in Marvel (MCU) vs DC (DCEU) books.

 

Heck, I'll be the first to acknowledge that I'm a "DC Hater".  

 

Now, even though I'm a "DC Hater", I passed Economics 101 in college many years ago and with only (5) copies of this book in CGC 9.8...the economics of supply vs demand are heavily skewed in my favor.

 

As for my risk, I procured this puppy in 2017 (about a month or so before the release of WW 1 movie) for $500. 

 

At $500 for a WW #204 in CGC 9.8...I think it's fair to say that my risk is almost non-existence on this book.

 

In summary, I'm swinging for the fence on this bad boy.

 

:-)

[kimik]

On 12/25/2021 at 9:21 PM, MAR1979 said:

It's not Marvel thus demand may have already peaked?  Buying now at current asking rate represents future wallet-ache.

Your honesty in the first sentence is refreshing. You clearly have bias towards the book on your part but betting on DC+DCEU is almost always a losing proposition. Smart money speculates on Bronze/Copper/Modern Marvel and never on DC and certainly never ever on a DCUE appearance.  Black Adam/The Rock being the most notable outlier.

 

Um, Smart Money has been around long enough to know that the market cycles between Marvel and DC. The smart money was locking in Marvel BA keys 2016-2018, not now when they peaked at the start of the year and have plateaued/started trending down. Expect Marvel BA to trend relatively sideways/minimal gains for a 3-4 years now as prices consolidate after a big jump, just like we have seen with every run up and peak since 1997 or so.

DC SA and BA spikes after the Marvel run-ups. Smart Money buys DC when prices are weak and then cashes in when they have their delayed run up. There have been plenty of DC BA books that have spiked the past couple of years as well. Take a look at any of the BA Batman or Tec keys/classic Adams covers. Smart Money bought them during 2016-2018 as well. 

Smart Money is publisher and genre agnostic (GA GGA , Romance and Horror have had their recent spikes as well to be played), it follows the trends and profits from all of them that it can.

And, Smart Money will not tell others when they are accumulating books.

Edited December 26, 2021 by kimik

[shadroch]

On 12/25/2021 at 11:15 PM, kimik said:

Um, Smart Money has been around long enough to know that the market cycles between Marvel and DC. The smart money was locking in Marvel BA keys 2016-2018, not now when they peaked at the start of the year and have plateaued/started trending down. Expect Marvel BA to trend relatively sideways/minimal gains for a 3-4 years now as prices consolidate after a big jump, just like we have seen with every run up and peak since 1997 or so.

DC SA and BA spikes after the Marvel run-ups. Smart Money buys DC when prices are weak and then cashes in when they have their delayed run up. There have been plenty of DC BA books that have spiked the past couple of years as well. Take a look at any of the BA Batman or Tec keys/classic Adams covers. Smart Money bought them during 2016-2018 as well. 

Sometimes looking back can tell us what lies ahead, but todays collectors may not follow the same patterns.  Movies have changed things and I think the hobby is changing from comic collecting to Marvel Comic collecting.  I agree with the classic Adams covers but those are collected in spite of them being DC. 

 

 

[kimik]

On 12/26/2021 at 12:03 AM, shadroch said:

Sometimes looking back can tell us what lies ahead, but todays collectors may not follow the same patterns.  Movies have changed things and I think the hobby is changing from comic collecting to Marvel Comic collecting.  I agree with the classic Adams covers but those are collected in spite of them being DC. 

 

 

I am not saying that DC will ever overtake Marvel for SA to MA (DC is the game in GA), but there are plenty of DC SA and BA books that have jumped 2-5X (or even more) the past two years, and some that are starting to jump now. There are trends that one can easily play between publishers and genres, and even within Marvel characters based on which books tend to jump first in each "age".

[Brock]

On 12/25/2021 at 11:21 PM, MAR1979 said:

Smart money speculates on Bronze/Copper/Modern Marvel and never on DC and certainly never ever on a DCUE appearance.

This may be conflating smart money with easy money. The whole ‘Marvel is king, DC is worthless’ thing has become a bit of a meme on the Boards recently, and I don’t really buy it.

As I see it, movies and speculators have made Marvel books far more volatile, which translates into lots of quick spikes (which we celebrate) and drops (which we rarely discuss). For the speculation crowd, this is ideal - the rapid increases in demand are great for flipping what may have previously been drek. If you measure the market by the volatility of these low value books, then it’s definitely a game of Marvel (and to a lesser extent, late bronze/early copper indies).

I’m happy to take advantage of this, and sell these suddenly spiking books, but I’m putting the money back into non-Marvel books, including classic golden age covers like Planet Comics, popular indies (TMNT, Crow, Usagi, etc.) and bronze DC keys.

Why? First, because  the Marvel market to me seems so frothy and irrational, and second because if you’ve been around for awhile, you’ve seen this cycle before… Marvel is always the back issue market leader, and undergoes periods of rapid escalation. This has typically been followed by a bit of a price retreat, and then a recognition that the prices of other books - especially DC - are relative bargains in the market. This then triggers an extended period of slower and steadier price rises among these books. It happened in the 1980s, the 1990s and the early 2000s. In fact, I wrote an article for Overstreet about this - back in 1993. I’m not sure why anyone thinks it won’t happen again.

[MAR1979]

On 12/26/2021 at 8:41 AM, Brock said:

This may be conflating smart money with easy money. The whole ‘Marvel is king, DC is worthless’ thing has become a bit of a meme on the Boards recently, and I don’t really buy it.

As I see it, movies and speculators have made Marvel books far more volatile, which translates into lots of quick spikes (which we celebrate) and drops (which we rarely discuss). For the speculation crowd, this is ideal - the rapid increases in demand are great for flipping what may have previously been drek. If you measure the market by the volatility of these low value books, then it’s definitely a game of Marvel (and to a lesser extent, late bronze/early copper indies).

I’m happy to take advantage of this, and sell these suddenly spiking books, but I’m putting the money back into non-Marvel books, including classic golden age covers like Planet Comics, popular indies (TMNT, Crow, Usagi, etc.) and bronze DC keys.

Why? First, because  the Marvel market to me seems so frothy and irrational, and second because if you’ve been around for awhile, you’ve seen this cycle before… Marvel is always the back issue market leader, and undergoes periods of rapid escalation. This has typically been followed by a bit of a price retreat, and then a recognition that the prices of other books - especially DC - are relative bargains in the market. This then triggers an extended period of slower and steadier price rises among these books. It happened in the 1980s, the 1990s and the early 2000s. In fact, I wrote an article for Overstreet about this - back in 1993. I’m not sure why anyone thinks it won’t happen again.

  

On 12/25/2021 at 10:48 PM, da.amazing.spiderman said:

Okay, I admit I have a vested interest in this speculation.  From the DC comics that will shine the brightest / be a potential multi-bagger in the coming 2 to 3 years - Wonder Woman #204 (1st Appearance of Nubia) is high on my watch list.

 

 

The post mentioned speculation, my response was targeted to speculation.  Say WW204 now commands  $2000USD or $2500 in CGC 9.8 , do you see it double, tripling, Quadrupling in value based on DCEU appearance? Do you see it approaching HOS92 or GL/GA76 values? - I don't.  At best it will still go up a bit and if one is really lucky will hang on the the majority of it's gains. IMHO that is best case and that depends on the 9.8 supply staying near 5 (say below 10) over the next couple of years.

When a Marvel book gets hot, 2k could go to 4k or to 8k.  Not many DC examples of that, not many like Batman 251 for example. Of course Batman with Classic Adams covers are outliers.

I picked up mainly DC Silver and Early Bronze throughout the 1990's as I did believe it was undervalued.   Well it was not. The supply may be smaller but the demand is greatly reduced. If I had purchased mostly Marvel Silver and Early Bronze in the 90's I could easily have retired early already.  I don't sell comics - NEVER have, but believe me when I say if I had hundreds of high grade Mid Silver Age - Early Bronze Marvel instead of DC right now I'd would be selling to retire early as I've had it with the "rat race".

For decades folks like myself thought DC would be the next big thing, outliers aside, history has proved them and me wrong every time.  Not to say you cant make money with DC but it's so much simpler with Marvel as you can still get onboard after a spike and profit. Not to mention much higher % profit potential.

I do wish DC would jump to Marvel levels as I have vested interest in that but for nearly 4 decades now those hopes for me have been crushed when compared to Marvel book values.  My best guess is history continues to repeat and the chasm between Marvel and DC grows ever larger in Marvel's favor.

Please note outliers will always exist but outliers are an exception not the norm.

P.S.

"Smart Money will not tell others when they are accumulating books."

I was very surprised see a "Shut-up" type comment like that. That is sad, as I for one appreciate counterpoints especially when it comes to speculating.  I wish I had been told grab more Silver Marvel than DC from 1990-1999. Rather than merely being given faux positive lip service by other collectors and dealers for my DC purchases.

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by MAR1979

[WolverineX]

Xmen 191.  Nimrod will show up at some point. Very cool villain. 

[da.amazing.spiderman]

On 12/26/2021 at 4:53 AM, MAR1979 said:

  

 

The post mentioned speculation, my response was targeted to speculation.  Say WW204 now commands  $2000USD or $2500 in CGC 9.8 , do you see it double, tripling, Quadrupling in value based on DCEU appearance? Do you see it approaching HOS92 or GL/GA76 values? - I don't.  At best it will still go up a bit and if one is really lucky will hang on the the majority of it's gains. IMHO that is best case and that depends on the 9.8 supply staying near 5 (say below 10) over the next couple of years.

When a Marvel book gets hot, 2k could go to 4k or to 8k.  Not many DC examples of that, not many like Batman 251 for example. Of course Batman with Classic Adams covers are outliers.

I picked up mainly DC Silver and Early Bronze throughout the 1990's as I did believe it was undervalued.   Well it was not. The supply may be smaller but the demand is greatly reduced. If I had purchased mostly Marvel Silver and Early Bronze in the 90's I could easily have retired early already.  I don't sell comics - NEVER have, but believe me when I say if I had hundreds of high grade Mid Silver Age - Early Bronze Marvel instead of DC right now I'd would be selling to retire early as I've had it with the "rat race".

For decades folks like myself thought DC would be the next big thing, outliers aside, history has proved them and me wrong every time.  Not to say you cant make money with DC but it's so much simpler with Marvel as you can still get onboard after a spike and profit. Not to mention much higher % profit potential.

I do wish DC would jump to Marvel levels as I have vested interest in that but for nearly 4 decades now those hopes for me have been crushed when compared to Marvel book values.  My best guess is history continues to repeat and the chasm between Marvel and DC grows ever larger in Marvel's favor.

Please note outliers will always exist but outliers are an exception not the norm.

P.S.

"Smart Money will not tell others when they are accumulating books."

I was very surprised see a "Shut-up" type comment like that. That is sad, as I for one appreciate counterpoints especially when it comes to speculating.  I wish I had been told grab more Silver Marvel than DC from 1990-1999. Rather than merely being given faux positive lip service by other collectors and dealers for my DC purchases.

 

 

I promise.  My last post on Wonder Woman #204...

You stated, "Say WW204 now commands  $2000USD or $2500 in CGC 9.8..."

I understand that you're not a fan of this book (that's cool), but your current assessment (along with GPA and GoCollect) of it's value in CGC 9.8 is way...way...off base by a few hundred percentage points.  I've received a half dozen private offers in the past +/-2 years ranging from a low of $3K to a high of $12.5K (Yes!!!  I said $12.5K!!!) just a few weeks ago for my WW #204.  This price appreciation (speculation) has occurred without confirmation yet by DC of Nubia in the upcoming WW #3 movie. 

Question...Now, why would someone offer me $12.5K for an item that is supposedly valued considerably less???

• Could it be that the "smart money" knows that WW #3 movie related news about Nubia is coming soon?
• Could it be that there are only (5) copies of WW #204 in CGC 9.8 according to the census and that the "smart money" wants to move in before the herd?
• Could it be that the "smart money" is also swinging for the fence and understands the market fundamentals of supply vs demand?.

IMHO, I think it's because the "true value" of Wonder Woman #204 in CGC 9.8 is just starting it's vertical trajectory and the price this book will eventually command in a few years from now will shock most comic investors.   

[Lazyboy]

On 12/26/2021 at 12:01 PM, da.amazing.spiderman said:

I promise.  My last post on Wonder Woman #204...

You stated, "Say WW204 now commands  $2000USD or $2500 in CGC 9.8..."

I understand that you're not a fan of this book (that's cool), but your current assessment (along with GPA and GoCollect) of it's value in CGC 9.8 is way...way...off base by a few hundred percentage points.  I've received a half dozen private offers in the past +/-2 years ranging from a low of $3K to a high of $12.5K (Yes!!!  I said $12.5K!!!) just a few weeks ago for my WW #204.  This price appreciation (speculation) has occurred without confirmation yet by DC of Nubia in the upcoming WW #3 movie. 

Question...Now, why would someone offer me $12.5K for an item that is supposedly valued considerably less???

• Could it be that the "smart money" knows that WW #3 movie related news about Nubia is coming soon?
• Could it be that there are only (5) copies of WW #204 in CGC 9.8 according to the census and that the "smart money" wants to move in before the herd?
• Could it be that the "smart money" is also swinging for the fence and understands the market fundamentals of supply vs demand?.

IMHO, I think it's because the "true value" of Wonder Woman #204 in CGC 9.8 is just starting it's vertical trajectory and the price this book will eventually command in a few years from now will shock most comic investors.   

You think "smart money" is speculating on a BA Wonder Woman comic featuring a minor character who has done almost nothing since then... at $12.5k?

On 12/25/2021 at 11:13 PM, da.amazing.spiderman said:

In summary, I'm swinging for the fence on this bad boy.

Congratulations on somehow striking out when there was a desperate collector willing to way overpay.

[Randall Ries]

On 12/19/2021 at 10:57 AM, Brian48 said:

I'm surprised ST 7 is not more popular than it is. For awhile, it was practically ignored by Bat fans.  I know there's a lot of copies out there, but considering the craze for vintage Batman related books, you'd think more fans would be interested in Wrightson's take of the Dark Knight. Good to see it finally get more attention.

 

I was just reading Swamp thing 10? 12? In it, one of the letters to the editor was complaining about issue 7 being lame. Or whatever word we used in 1973 to describe "lame". I read this in 1973. And reread it a thousand times since Was the first Swamp book I went after in the 1-10 series when I began collecting again. Was fascinated with the way "Alec" finally got fed up with Batman and knocked him on his Batass.

[Randall Ries]

On 12/26/2021 at 1:15 AM, kimik said:

Um, Smart Money has been around long enough to know that the market cycles between Marvel and DC. The smart money was locking in Marvel BA keys 2016-2018, not now when they peaked at the start of the year and have plateaued/started trending down. Expect Marvel BA to trend relatively sideways/minimal gains for a 3-4 years now as prices consolidate after a big jump, just like we have seen with every run up and peak since 1997 or so.

DC SA and BA spikes after the Marvel run-ups. Smart Money buys DC when prices are weak and then cashes in when they have their delayed run up. There have been plenty of DC BA books that have spiked the past couple of years as well. Take a look at any of the BA Batman or Tec keys/classic Adams covers. Smart Money bought them during 2016-2018 as well. 

Smart Money is publisher and genre agnostic (GA GGA , Romance and Horror have had their recent spikes as well to be played), it follows the trends and profits from all of them that it can.

And, Smart Money will not tell others when they are accumulating books.

I wish Smart Money would shut its damned mouth about buying raw as well.

[Randall Ries]

On 12/19/2021 at 10:57 AM, Brian48 said:

I'm surprised ST 7 is not more popular than it is. For awhile, it was practically ignored by Bat fans.  I know there's a lot of copies out there, but considering the craze for vintage Batman related books, you'd think more fans would be interested in Wrightson's take of the Dark Knight. Good to see it finally get more attention.

 

 

[Randall Ries]

On 12/26/2021 at 1:01 PM, da.amazing.spiderman said:

I promise.  My last post on Wonder Woman #204...

You stated, "Say WW204 now commands  $2000USD or $2500 in CGC 9.8..."

I understand that you're not a fan of this book (that's cool), but your current assessment (along with GPA and GoCollect) of it's value in CGC 9.8 is way...way...off base by a few hundred percentage points.  I've received a half dozen private offers in the past +/-2 years ranging from a low of $3K to a high of $12.5K (Yes!!!  I said $12.5K!!!) just a few weeks ago for my WW #204.  This price appreciation (speculation) has occurred without confirmation yet by DC of Nubia in the upcoming WW #3 movie. 

Question...Now, why would someone offer me $12.5K for an item that is supposedly valued considerably less???

• Could it be that the "smart money" knows that WW #3 movie related news about Nubia is coming soon?
• Could it be that there are only (5) copies of WW #204 in CGC 9.8 according to the census and that the "smart money" wants to move in before the herd?
• Could it be that the "smart money" is also swinging for the fence and understands the market fundamentals of supply vs demand?.

IMHO, I think it's because the "true value" of Wonder Woman #204 in CGC 9.8 is just starting it's vertical trajectory and the price this book will eventually command in a few years from now will shock most comic investors.   

This. It's one of the reasons I bought a nice, raw Bat 222. The Neal cover, yes. Always. But also the fact that Paul McCartney won't live forever. Neal won't either. I suppose it's the same gamble as buying because of a movie rumor or an actual appearance in a movie of a minor character now a major character. The difference is that the movie may or may not do well. And ultimately will fade from view a bit. WW 1984 was a bomb and people won't forget it. And Gal Gadot alienated a lot of Jews. But McCartney AND Neal will remain deceased forever.

BUT! Like yourself, I buy what I want to buy. Because I like it or want it. Watch Indiana Jones And The Last Crusade again. When Panama Hat tossed the envelope of money over his shoulder flippantly to Fedora and his diggers. That's how I am. Toss the money and don't look back. Look at the object with love and pride of possession. It's a great 3 seconds of that film. Really subtle.

[MAR1979]

On 12/26/2021 at 2:53 PM, Lazyboy said:

You think "smart money" is speculating on a BA Wonder Woman comic featuring a minor character who has done almost nothing since then... at $12.5k?

Congratulations on somehow striking out when there was a desperate collector willing to way overpay.

21 years ago I was offered $5000 for my 9.6 Showcase 75 as it was the highest and 1 of 2 at the time as I recall. I don't sell comics so I declined. For 20 years I've regretted that choice.  Back then I would have put the money immediately into 1970's OCA Marvel Covers - at the time I could have purchased 2 or 3 including a Trimpe Hulk at 2500, boy have I regretted not taking that stooopid money offer.  About 2 years later when there were 5 of the book the guy making the offer emailed me his thanks as he had just obtained one for $500. Did I mention I regret not accepting the offer.

The moral here if there really even is one, would be the old adage "Strike While the Iron is Hot" or perhaps "Take The Money and Run"

P.S. If anyone wants a Showcase 75 CGC 9.6 I'll do $4500 on it.

Edited December 27, 2021 by MAR1979

[kimik]

On 12/26/2021 at 6:41 AM, Brock said:

Why? First, because  the Marvel market to me seems so frothy and irrational, and second because if you’ve been around for awhile, you’ve seen this cycle before… Marvel is always the back issue market leader, and undergoes periods of rapid escalation. This has typically been followed by a bit of a price retreat, and then a recognition that the prices of other books - especially DC - are relative bargains in the market. This then triggers an extended period of slower and steadier price rises among these books. It happened in the 1980s, the 1990s and the early 2000s. In fact, I wrote an article for Overstreet about this - back in 1993. I’m not sure why anyone thinks it won’t happen again.

Exactly 

[JTLarsen]

On 12/26/2021 at 2:03 AM, shadroch said:

Sometimes looking back can tell us what lies ahead, but todays collectors may not follow the same patterns.  Movies have changed things and I think the hobby is changing from comic collecting to Marvel Comic collecting.  I agree with the classic Adams covers but those are collected in spite of them being DC. 

 

 

Right. Lotta people wishing Batman 227 was Iron Fist and Superman 233 was Namor.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 12/26/2021 at 8:41 AM, Brock said:

This has typically been followed by a bit of a price retreat, and then a recognition that the prices of other books - especially DC - are relative bargains in the market. This then triggers an extended period of slower and steadier price rises among these books. It happened in the 1980s, the 1990s and the early 2000s. In fact, I wrote an article for Overstreet about this - back in 1993. I’m not sure why anyone thinks it won’t happen again.

It will happen again, but to a smaller extent than previous cycles.  Many of the players from the 80's and 90's have moved on (passed away, shifted focus to OA or other collectibles, sold their collections). More than ever, the collecting focus from Silver to Bronze to Copper has been Marvel.  So yes, the Marvels do spike more rapidly and yes, prices are more volatile than their DC counterparts, but folks that collected Marvels from these eras have seen significantly higher returns than those with a DC-centric focus.

With each passing 'cycle' the DC's lag further behind so yeah, they may appear to be relative bargains in the market, but honestly, given the aforementioned, who cares?

[MAR1979]

On 12/27/2021 at 9:04 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

It will happen again, but to a smaller extent than previous cycles.  Many of the players from the 80's and 90's have moved on (passed away, shifted focus to OA or other collectibles, sold their collections). More than ever, the collecting focus from Silver to Bronze to Copper has been Marvel.  So yes, the Marvels do spike more rapidly and yes, prices are more volatile than their DC counterparts, but folks that collected Marvels from these eras have seen significantly higher returns than those with a DC-centric focus.

With each passing 'cycle' the DC's lag further behind so yeah, they may appear to be relative bargains in the market, but honestly, given the aforementioned, who cares?

Agreed. The world, and the hobby has changed quite a bit since 1993 which is nearly 30 years ago. The old paradigms may no longer apply to the same extent if even at all. 

I moved to OCA in 1999 and until I was priced out 20+ years later never looked back to comics.  I am in full tight hold mode on my art and am using my collecting "budget" to have my raw stuff graded. While I pretty much only post Copper stuff skewing towards the oddball that I picked up raw as a kid I do have a lot of high grade 1965-1972 DC I wish was Marvel. Back in the early-mid 90's DC was going to be the next huge Marvel level thing well decades later it still is not.  Demand is just as key as supply.

Never say never but given the recent DC TV Shows and huge Budget Films have not changed market perception then seriously folks, what will??

 

P.S. Thinking about all the Marvel in the Oakland collection (Myself and local to Vinny collectors were given early shot pre-first show appearance of the collection)  I passed on to use my funds towards DC books thinking they were better values makes me a bit sick today.  I picked up approx 6 DC's for every 1 Marvel.  Younger me in hindsight was not very smart. To those who are somewhat young reading this don't make the same mistakes I did, eschew DC and buy MARVEL!

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by MAR1979

[1Cool]

I'd love to find some DC books (even keys) that I could consider undervalued since DC books are easy to find for a great price but there are very few worth buying even at rock bottom prices just because they take forever to sell compared to Marvel books.  I've got quite a few books I've speculated on I think Omega Men 3 and GL 141 are the only two DC books that I've stockpiled over the years.  Marvel has been king for so long I rarely even look through the DC boxes at shows.

I will say I do tend to buy Batman Death in the Family books when they are high grade and they are cheap but finding higher grade copies is getting more difficult as time goes by.

Edited December 27, 2021 by 1Cool

[telerites]

On 12/19/2021 at 9:57 AM, Brian48 said:

I'm surprised ST 7 is not more popular than it is. For awhile, it was practically ignored by Bat fans.  I know there's a lot of copies out there, but considering the craze for vintage Batman related books, you'd think more fans would be interested in Wrightson's take of the Dark Knight. Good to see it finally get more attention

 

It has long been one if not m favorite BA story.  Bats, Wein/Wrightson, ST, and a puppy.  I forget exactly when or where - probably a TBG ad, I bought a stack of Wrightson Swamp Things - they were/are in really nice condition.  I slabbed a few and actually had a few SS.  The best I got on the #7 was 9.6 on both copies I subbed.