Art Prices 3 3

[suspense39]

45 minutes ago, aokartman said:

Here is an interesting thought.

Has anyone got an example, within their own collection, of a piece which they held for too long, with regrets?

David

(edit)  I have numerous examples within my collection which have gone down in FMV (IMO), but I'm trying hard to think of any art that I regret buying.

I wouldn’t say exactly held too long, but I have a few pieces I’ve been shopping around for over a year at or below what I paid for them with no takers.....when I purchased them they were of course going no where but up

one thing I’ve learned no one really knows what things are worth and what direction things are going....I’ve heard many times from dealers and other collectors, “get so and so quick, they’re about to take off!” And most  of the time nothing happens; if it goes up and you didn’t buy they will tell you “see, I told you”, and if it goes down, you will never hear about it.......this hobby is really just educated guess work in the field of ones own collecting interest, and how much it’s worth to you, I don’t count on anything continuing up....In a way I think the only to way truly have upside is just to be lucky enough to get it cheap!

[malvin]

59 minutes ago, aokartman said:

Here is an interesting thought.

Has anyone got an example, within their own collection, of a piece which they held for too long, with regrets?

David

(edit)  I have numerous examples within my collection which have gone down in FMV (IMO), but I'm trying hard to think of any art that I regret buying.

Not directly for me, but certainly many things are hot and then are not.

One example is any artwork related to the Heroes TV show.  I think they have not gone to Zero due to Tim Sale, but they have certainly declined, and if the main artist wasn't someone like Tim Sale, I bet you they would really be down in the dregs.

Malvin

[PhilipB2k17]

11 hours ago, MarvelComicsArt said:

A+ level material is never going to drop in price only increase. Its not a matter of if it will increase. Its by how much and how quickly.

Take for example the recent Romita  asm #100 cover . This  particular cover is never going to go down in value.

In fact it will only increase. And at a rate greater than anyone can imagine. The sky is the limit on this cover.

Why you ask? Well, its so unique because it has 34 head shots plus the largest full figure of Spider-man on any Romita ASM cover. All done in Romita's prime!

( and it does not hurt that its a milestone 100 issue, only second marvel title to reach 100 issues at the time )

Take for instance the Silver Surfer #4 cover. Its one of a kind . One of the most iconic Marvel covers EVER.

No matter what the price tag you can't replace it so someone will always pay a premium for it.

Same with the ASM #100, Same with ASM #50, Same with ASM #122 , etc....... if you can't replace it . Than it's  A+ level material and you will never lose on it.

 

Remember if it's A+ MATERIAL it will always be treated as such. Now the trick is to understand what category your purchase falls under .

Once you understand that you can price accordingly . Original Comic book art is still in its infancy stages. There is tons of art that is undervalued.

Give it another 5 years and wait how the market booms. How long have you heard about the bubble bursting ?

The reality is that its purely wishful thinking. While it is true that some art will always appreciates at a faster rate than other art, for one reason or another .

The truth of the matter is that quality will always fetch a high price. Buy what you love , buy what you can afford.

And understand that this is art, so not everyone will agree with you. Educate yourself  first . And than trust in yourself that you have a good enough eye for quality.

Than just buy, buy, buy! or in 5 years you may cry! cry! cry!

Educate your self first and foremost!  

Also those super high end examples i mentioned like the  Romita ASM #100 cover are just that,.... examples.  

There are many examples of wonderful underrated original art for reasonable prices  ( $500-$1200 a page).

This art will mature nicely over time . Look what happened with the Don Heck market in the last 5 years .

Artists like Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, and Steve Rude are super under valued. 

You can purchase quality original art on any budget.  You just have to ask yourself what quality means to you?

I don't think the ASM #100 cover is an A+ page. I think it is a page that is overly inflated because of a certain age of collector has a lot of nostalgia for it. I'm not sure that translates outside of that demographic. In the longer term, I'd rather have the Capullo Batman #1 cover.

I agree with you on SS# 4, though.

[PhilipB2k17]

5 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

 

This subject has come up before, some of which by me.  IMO, if you are looking to buy stuff as a long term investment with a 20 year horizon, OA is a lousy idea. Collectibles, in general, have values which rise and fall with generations. So, what used to be booming hobbies in toy trains and porcelain dolls is sinking or dead. We also had a boom/bust in Beanie Babies (and artificial collectible). 

If the average collector is in his (and from what I can tell, this is mostly a male hobby) mid-40's to mid-50's, I think there is still at least 10 good years left for very good material. Other stuff will generally go up or be static, with some drops at the lower end. 

My suggestion is you buy what you like, but only from "free cash" and not investment funds.

 

 

 

 

If you pay for OA with Bitcoin, you can't lose!

[Knightsofold]

1 hour ago, aokartman said:

Here is an interesting thought.

Has anyone got an example, within their own collection, of a piece which they held for too long, with regrets?

David

(edit)  I have numerous examples within my collection which have gone down in FMV (IMO), but I'm trying hard to think of any art that I regret buying.

I’m guessing you have no regret on the pieces that fell because you love the piece.  

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, hmendryk said:

I am not saying that the right Romita could not go for more than a Kirby, just that there was a time that no Romita went for any where near the best Kirby work. And if context has become more important than artist, than that alone would indicate a change affecting price trajectories. The idea that value of original art will always go up is, IMO, not justified. While that has been the case in the past if you look at other collectables you will see that such a trajectory is not always maintained. There was a time when paintings from the French Academy got the highest prices but tastes changed and prices dropped dramatically. Now ASM #100 may in fact be exceptional and not indicative of change in the valuation of Romita art, but I believe there is at least one dealer who has priced another Romita ASM at 400K. If we are seeing a shift in taste then we can expect to see a shift in pricing as well.

Was there ever a time when Ditko Spider-Man art was not among the most desirable pieces to own in the hobby? No. Those pages will hold their value. I'm not so sure about Romita. There are some A+ Romita pages that will hold value. But, run of the mill Romita spider-man pages, will not, IMHO.

[PhilipB2k17]

Personally, I think the fear that if you don't buy something now, it will be X times as expensive to buy it tomorrow, is more than half of what's driving the current market. As soon as prices stabilize, then pieces will sit forever, and dealers will start discounting to move inventory.

[Bronty]

41 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Personally, I think the fear that if you don't buy something now, it will be X times as expensive to buy it tomorrow, is more than half of what's driving the current market. As soon as prices stabilize, then pieces will sit forever, and dealers will start discounting to move inventory.

Its a good point.   I do agree, its human nature and momentum at play.   If people think prices are falling no one wants to touch all that previously hot material when they can presumably pay less in a year.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Bronty

[J.Sid]

2 hours ago, aokartman said:

Here is an interesting thought.

Has anyone got an example, within their own collection, of a piece which they held for too long, with regrets?

David

(edit)  I have numerous examples within my collection which have gone down in FMV (IMO), but I'm trying hard to think of any art that I regret buying.

OK, I just remembered all the Jaime Diaz Studio Brazil "Little Lulu" art I got.  Two or three hundred dollars worth at auction.  And still probably worth the three dollars a page I paid.  But, still no regrets!  With many color guides!

 

I think most people with Todd McFarlane covers wonder what would have happened if we'd sold around the time of the Shamus frenzy and used that money for other things.  

...Or held onto the cash to re-purchase McFarlane originals at 40% discount in the years that followed.

Things are rebounding now, but still not where they were at the peak.

[JadeGiant]

This is my personal philosophy:

 

Buying comic art is NOT an investment. The term investment gets thrown around here a lot and it feels like it is often used as a rationalization for buying art at high prices and/or outside of normal hobby spending threshold. I know it creeps into the back of my mind. I would substitute the term gamble if I were to consider possible future financial implications.

 

As far as the opening post, I think it is more worthy of discussion on the pieces that are not A/A+, at least for me personally as I would agree that the blue chip pieces will hold/increase in value over a 10 year period. Maybe not as an “investment” as your money is better served elsewhere most likely but a general truth none the less. The problem I see is that the big sellers/dealers want to price all/most art while applying the same rationale as the blue chip pieces.

 

I agree with the comment about budget as this drives my buying habits as well. My budget is not increasing at the same level as current market trends. This means that I buy less and focus on those sellers that are not trying to sell at +5 year pricing. It’s still possible but makes the chase and discipline more difficult.

[MarvelComicsArt]

1 hour ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I don't think the ASM #100 cover is an A+ page. I think it is a page that is overly inflated because of a certain age of collector has a lot of nostalgia for it. I'm not sure that translates outside of that demographic. In the longer term, I'd rather have the Capullo Batman #1 cover.

I agree with you on SS# 4, though.

First of all the ASM #100 is and always will be an A+ cover.  Any serious well educated collector understands that factual statement.

Your own statement that you would rather have the Capullo Batman #1 is solely based on your own sense of Nostalgia speaking, which is totally fine.

And i am positive you feel this way solely based on your own age. To you the Capullo cover represents what the Frank Miller generation feels about the Dark Knight Returns covers ( especially #1 and #2 ).

In assigning valuation to original art it has to be somewhat factual, if it's all opinion based than no one would ever get a straight answer.

The ASM #100 .

(1)A milestone issue (only second one at that point) ,

(2)Largest Spiderman full figure shot on any drawn Romita Amazing Spiderman cover,

(3) All drawn in the prime of the artists career. 

4) Artistically its a memorable, beautifully executed cover.

(5) Its in the top 5  GREATEST Romita drawn Amazing Spiderman covers of all time.   

YES ...Of ALL TIME........ You cannot replace it with any other Romita Spiderman cover. 34 head shots plus a huge image of Spiderman .

Its unique in that sense ,so therefore it's a one of a kind. Can't be replaced = A + material.

You do not even need to be a Romita fan to appreciate it, nor a Spiderman fan. You just have to be a fan of comic books .

And absorb it within the historical context of the illustrated comic book medium .

Those are all facts and thus the price tag reflected it. You can't argue facts. Its what holds this hobby together. That and fanboy fairy dust (stolen form tinker bell).

When you blurt out "It's not an A+ level cover "it's just your own individual opinion . It's like screaming fire when there's no actual fire.

Which you are totally entitled to ( not the screaming fire part cause thats illegal) . I would never take away anyone's opinion ever. It's what makes the hobby fun. Over Opinionated shop talk.

But just understand that it's solely your own opinion . Just like your own super high valuation of  the Capullo Batman #1 cover art , it's all opinion.

I can hypothetically say that i would rather have the cover to Muppet Babies #1 over The Capullo Batman #1 cover and that would be just my opinion.

And guess what , some people may actually chime in and agree cause they truly love "muppet babies" ( i mean who doesn't, right ?).

But thats just an opinion ( a like or a dislike nothing more ,nothing less)

So in the end ,actual numbers, actual facts become guidelines for valuation. And that is critical in maintaining a structured order for valuation, of the original comic art market.

(PS i am not knocking Muppet Babies #1 , thats a classic ... make sure to get it in a cgc slabbed 9.8 folks, it's making a comeback you heard it here first!)

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by MarvelComicsArt

[BCarter27]

2 minutes ago, MarvelComicsArt said:

Muppet Babies #1

Btw, there are only two Muppet Babies covers on CAF. So they might be more rare than you think.

[delekkerste]

7 minutes ago, J.Sid said:

 

I think most people with Todd McFarlane covers wonder what would have happened if we'd sold around the time of the Shamus frenzy and used that money for other things.  

...Or held onto the cash to re-purchase McFarlane originals at 40% discount in the years that followed.

Things are rebounding now, but still not where they were at the peak.

I think my ASM #299 cover traded hands privately at $120K (maybe a second time at $100K IIRC) before I snagged it at more than 40% off peak value in the McSpidey glut that ensued after the Shamus sale.  It's probably rebounded somewhat since then, but, I'm not sure it's back to peak value yet.  The DKR market also experienced a supply glut post-2011; remember back when even B+ pages would fetch $40-$45K?  Some pages from that book are still probably below peak theoretical value reached in the very early 2010s. 

[MarvelComicsArt]

Prime Muppet babies art!

Edited March 19, 2018 by MarvelComicsArt

[vodou]

14 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Maybe not as an “investment” as your money is better served elsewhere most likely but a general truth none the less.

This is a popular thing to say or write but I'm not so sure "most" people have any better ideas. The average investor tends to end up with sub-average roi. Heck, too many are pretty happy to get out with what they went in with, assuming some level of active trading. Not coincidentally this is how a lot of people feel leaving Vegas or Atlantic City. "Most" people suck at traditional investing. At least with comic art "most" collectors are rather highly educated on the market and the sub-markets they are specifically involved in.

[delekkerste]

2 minutes ago, vodou said:

This is a popular thing to say or write but I'm not so sure "most" people have any better ideas. The average investor tends to end up with sub-average roi. Heck, too many are pretty happy to get out with what they went in with, assuming some level of active trading. Not coincidentally this is how a lot of people feel leaving Vegas or Atlantic City. "Most" people suck at traditional investing. At least with comic art "most" collectors are rather highly educated on the market and the sub-markets they are specifically involved in.

Blue Horseshoe LOVES Gil Cohen Executioner art.  

[MarvelComicsArt]

5 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Blue Horseshoe LOVES Gil Cohen Executioner art.  

Blue Horse shoe... hmnnnnn.... you don't say

by the way great buy on the ASM 299 kudos

Edited March 19, 2018 by MarvelComicsArt

[PhilipB2k17]

37 minutes ago, MarvelComicsArt said:

First of all the ASM #100 is and always will be an A+ cover.  Any serious well educated collector understands that factual statement.

Your own statement that you would rather have the Capullo Batman #1 is solely based on your own sense of Nostalgia speaking, which is totally fine.

And i am positive you feel this way solely based on your own age. To you the Capullo cover represents what the Frank Miller generation feels about the Dark Knight Returns covers ( especially #1 and #2 ).

In assigning valuation to original art it has to be somewhat factual, if it's all opinion based than no one would ever get a straight answer.

The ASM #100 .

(1)A milestone issue (only second one at that point) ,

(2)Largest Spiderman full figure shot on any drawn Romita Amazing Spiderman cover,

(3) All drawn in the prime of the artists career. 

4) Artistically its a memorable, beautifully executed cover.

(5) Its in the top 5  GREATEST Romita drawn Amazing Spiderman covers of all time.   

YES ...Of ALL TIME........ You cannot replace it with any other Romita Spiderman cover. 34 head shots plus a huge image of Spiderman .

Its unique in that sense ,so therefore it's a one of a kind. Can't be replaced = A + material.

You do not even need to be a Romita fan to appreciate it, nor a Spiderman fan. You just have to be a fan of comic books .

And absorb it within the historical context of the illustrated comic book medium .

Those are all facts and thus the price tag reflected it. You can't argue facts. Its what holds this hobby together. That and fanboy fairy dust (stolen form tinker bell).

When you blurt out "It's not an A+ level cover "it's just your own individual opinion . It's like screaming fire when there's no actual fire.

Which you are totally entitled to ( not the screaming fire part cause thats illegal) . I would never take away anyone's opinion ever. It's what makes the hobby fun. Over Opinionated shop talk.

But just understand that it's solely your own opinion . Just like your own super high valuation of  the Capullo Batman #1 cover art , it's all opinion.

I can hypothetically say that i would rather have the cover to Muppet Babies #1 over The Capullo Batman #1 cover and that would be just my opinion.

And guess what , some people may actually chime in and agree cause they truly love "muppet babies" ( i mean who doesn't, right ?).

But thats just an opinion ( a like or a dislike nothing more ,nothing less)

So in the end ,actual numbers, actual facts become guidelines for valuation. And that is critical in maintaining a structured order for valuation, of the original comic art market.

(PS i am not knocking Muppet Babies #1 , thats a classic ... make sure to get it in a cgc slabbed 9.8 folks, it's making a comeback you heard it here first!)

 

 

 

 

 

1) I have no nostalgia at all for the Capullo Batman #1 cover.  My Nostalgia sweet spot is the late 70's to mid-80's. I just think the people who do have nostalgia for that cover are not even in their earning prime yet, and that is an iconic cover for that generation of collectors.

2) The ASM #100 cover looks far better in color than in black and white. The reason why it's a striking cover (to the extent that it is) is because it has Spidey on top of a black background.

3) It's not that artistic. Its just Spider-Man on top of the headshots of his rogues gallery.

4) You think this is one of the top 4 Romita covers of all time? Really?  Better than 40? Better than 67? Better than 75? Better than 68? Better than 70?

 

Edited March 19, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

Its a good point.   I do agree, its human nature and momentum at play.   If people think prices are falling no one wants to touch all that previously hot material when they can presumably pay less in a year.

Bitcoin investors are now finding this out.

[Bronty]

19 minutes ago, vodou said:

This is a popular thing to say or write but I'm not so sure "most" people have any better ideas. The average investor tends to end up with sub-average roi. Heck, too many are pretty happy to get out with what they went in with, assuming some level of active trading. Not coincidentally this is how a lot of people feel leaving Vegas or Atlantic City. "Most" people suck at traditional investing. At least with comic art "most" collectors are rather highly educated on the market and the sub-markets they are specifically involved in.

Its like the comic market's own form of 'virtue signalling' or something.    With no disrespect to anyone who says that.   I think they think they mean it.    I just also happen to think that the actions of some of those that say so don't always align with the words.   

Some might say 'I don't buy comic art to invest' but then turn around and say 'I had to buy this for 3k, this art is going nowhere but up even though I don't like it that much' in a later conversation.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Bronty