Heritage BP increasing 0

[DanCooper]

41 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

%So, unless you are a big time collector and ongoing consignor like Tim who deals in high 5-figure books, other BSD's who deals in 6-figure books, or hook up with one of these guys, you really are back to your hopeful 25% to 35% fees versus your standard 10% fees for both CC and CL. 

Sorry, I'm a little confused here.

I thought the maximum a seller/consigner would be charged at Heritage would be 15%

Where are the "25% to 35% fees" for the seller's side coming into play? Did Heritage change the seller's premium also recently? (like they did with the buyer's premium? - now 20% formerly 19.5%)

I know Heritage, under normal circumstances, would get 35% from both the seller and buyer combined (15% seller's premium plus 20% from the buyer)

[lou_fine]

43 minutes ago, DanCooper said:

Sorry, I'm a little confused here.

I thought the maximum a seller/consigner would be charged at Heritage would be 15%

Where are the "25% to 35% fees" for the seller's side coming into play? Did Heritage change the seller's premium also recently? (like they did with the buyer's premium? - now 20% formerly 19.5%)

I know Heritage, under normal circumstances, would get 35% from both the seller and buyer combined (15% seller's premium plus 20% from the buyer)

I believe you are missing the point that the Heritage final realized prices that we see includes both the Buyer's Premium plus the Seller's Premium in there.

So for example, if a particular book hammers for $10,000 then this means the listed realized price for the book will actually be $12,000 (i.e. $10K hammer price + 20% BP).

I believe what the seller will get in the end is only $8,500 (i.e. the $10K hammer price less the standard 15% SP).  If the seller is lucky and has the right books, they might be able to get this SP down to something like 10% which means they will see $9K out of the total $12K sale.  So, in a sense, the seller is indeed paying for the buyer's premium in a Heritage auction when it's all said and done.  

If this same book sells on CC or CL for the same $12K finally realized price, then the seller would be pocketing $10,800 for this book (i.e. $12K realized price less the standard 10% SP).  With the CC and CL auctions as far as I know, there is only a Seller's Premium, but no hidden Buyer's Premium as the hammer price is the final price. 

Hope this little bit of math helps to clarify everything for you. 

Edited June 25, 2018 by lou_fine

[DanCooper]

10 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

I believe you are missing the point that the Heritage final realized prices that we see includes both the Buyer's Premium plus the Seller's Premium in there.

So for example, if a particular book hammers for $10,000 then this means the listed realized price for the book will actually be $12,000 (i.e. $10K + 20% BP).

I believe what the seller will get in the end is only $8,500 (i.e. the $10K hammer price less the standard 15% SP).  If the seller is lucky and has the right books, they might be able to get this SP down to something like 10% which means they will see $9K out of the total $12K sale.  So, in a sense, the seller is indeed paying for the buyer's premium in a Heritage auction when it's all said and done.  

If this same book sells on CC or CL for the same $12K finally realized price, then the seller would be pocketing $10,800 for this book (i.e. $12K realized price less the standard 10% SP). 

Hope this little bit of math helps to clarify everything for you. 

Your math is good and I agree with it.

But, it still comes down to Heritage charges a maximum of 15% to sellers versus 10% on Comic Connect/Link.

What was throwing me off was the talk of "25% to 35% fees" mentioned pertaining to sellers

 

[Dick O.]

HA charges sellers approximately 29.2% of the final sale price (i.e. what the buyer pays) versus the 10% of CC/CL.

 

[MrBedrock]

On 6/25/2018 at 9:51 AM, october said:

This. I consign through a friend and the Heritage fees end up nowhere close to those numbers. For what I actually pay they are a better option than Clink or CC.

I don't see how this could possibly be true, Andy. I have made big consignments to all of them and I haven't been able to get any better than +5% from Heritage, which has translated to Heritage getting 14.5% of the final cash price.

[MrBedrock]

22 hours ago, DanCooper said:

Your math is good and I agree with it.

But, it still comes down to Heritage charges a maximum of 15% to sellers versus 10% on Comic Connect/Link.

What was throwing me off was the talk of "25% to 35% fees" mentioned pertaining to sellers

 

Heritage collects as much as 35% of the final cash price on many of their auction listings.

[october]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

I don't see how this could possibly be true, Andy. I have made big consignments to all of them and I haven't been able to get any better than +5% from Heritage, which has translated to Heritage getting 14.5% of the final cash price.

Let me clarify....they are a better option after the discounted commission because they seem to draw added eyeballs and higher prices, not because they end up charging less than 10%. The total money to Heritage with this discount is right around the number you mentioned.

Heritage at 15% > CC or CL at 10%.

Edited June 26, 2018 by october

[MrBedrock]

22 minutes ago, october said:

Let me clarify....they are a better option after the discounted commission because they seem to draw added eyeballs and higher prices, not because they end up charging less than 10%. The total money to Heritage with this discount is right around the number you mentioned.

Heritage at 15% > CC or CL at 10%.

That mat be true with some stuff but I have certainly had a different experience with some of the items I have offered through Comic Connect.

[DanCooper]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Heritage collects as much as 35% of the final cash price on many of their auction listings. 

Hi Richard

You are referring to the combined buyer's premium (20%) plus the seller's premium (normally 15%) = 35%? Right?

Thanks

[lou_fine]

17 minutes ago, DanCooper said:

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Heritage collects as much as 35% of the final cash price on many of their auction listings. 

Hi Richard

You are referring to the combined buyer's premium (20%) plus the seller's premium (normally 15%) = 35%? Right?

Thanks

In actual theory, that would not be mathematically correct since I believe that Heritage bases all of their auction fee calculations against the hammer price and not the final realized price.

So, if you go back to my previous example from above with a hammer price of $10K and a final realized price of $12K, O is 100% correct when he states that the total auction fees would amount to roughly 29.2% of the final realized price.  Since the consignor would receive only $8,500 out of the $12,000 final realized price, this equates to total standard Heritage auction fees of 29.17% versus only the standard 10% charged by CC and CL. 

Dan:  Although the buyer is indeed paying the buyer's premium, the consignor in actual fact also gets tagged for this amount relative to the final price since they will not receive it as it is also taken by Heritage along with the seller's premium. 

Edited June 26, 2018 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

On 6/25/2018 at 7:51 AM, october said:

This. I consign through a friend and the Heritage fees end up nowhere close to those numbers. For what I actually pay they are a better option than Clink or CC.

I don't see how this could possibly be true, Andy. I have made big consignments to all of them and I haven't been able to get any better than +5% from Heritage, which has translated to Heritage getting 14.5% of the final cash price.

 

1 hour ago, MrBedrock said:

Heritage collects as much as 35% of the final cash price on many of their auction listings.

Richard;

Are you saying that the total auction fees (both BP and SP) charged to you by Heritage are sometimes as low as 14.5% of the final cash price, yet it would be roughly 35% for regular consignors who are not entitled to any discounts?

If that is indeed the case, then I assume Heritage must be giving a substantial portion of the now 20% buyer's premium back to you, along with some kind of discount on the seller's premium.  Either that or some combination of both in order to get it all the way back down to only 14.5% of the final cash price. 

[lou_fine]

27 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

52 minutes ago, october said:

Let me clarify....they are a better option after the discounted commission because they seem to draw added eyeballs and higher prices, not because they end up charging less than 10%. The total money to Heritage with this discount is right around the number you mentioned.

Heritage at 15% > CC or CL at 10%.

That mat be true with some stuff but I have certainly had a different experience with some of the items I have offered through Comic Connect.

Richard;

Are you also saying that ComicConnect is in some cases charging you more than 10% of the final cash price for their auction fees or are you saying that it sometimes amounts to less than 10% of the final cash price? 

[MrBedrock]

37 minutes ago, DanCooper said:

Hi Richard

You are referring to the combined buyer's premium (20%) plus the seller's premium (normally 15%) = 35%? Right?

Thanks

Yes. Exactly.

[PeterPark]

Everyone probably saves more because I don't bid because of the BP. You're welcome everybody!

[DanCooper]

A lot of good feedback and insight from all here on the premium situation, but I think we are all overthinking it a bit.

Using the straight $10,000 hammer price example:

Heritage would take a 15% premium from the seller ($1,500) Seller ends up getting paid $8,500 for his consignment.

Heritage would charge 20% premium to the buyer ($2,000) Buyer ends up paying $12,000

The buyer's premium has nothing to do with what the seller gets. It belongs to Heritage solely.

At Comic Connect/Link, they charge the seller normally 10% premium. Seller would get paid $9,000 for his consignment in this example.

[MrBedrock]

13 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

Richard;

Are you saying that the total auction fees (both BP and SP) charged to you by Heritage are sometimes as low as 14.5% of the final cash price, yet it would be roughly 35% for regular consignors who are not entitled to any discounts?

If that is indeed the case, then I assume Heritage must be giving a substantial portion of the now 20% buyer's premium back to you, along with some kind of discount on the seller's premium.  Either that or some combination of both in order to get it all the way back down to only 14.5% of the final cash price. 

It is possible to negotiate the consignor's final payout to as much as 105% of hammer, and even an extra percentage point or two in very special circumstances.

[MrBedrock]

15 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Richard;

Are you also saying that ComicConnect is in some cases charging you more than 10% of the final cash price for their auction fees or are you saying that it sometimes amounts to less than 10% of the final cash price? 

Neither. Andy was saying that in his experience items perform so well in Heritage that they make up for the 5% difference. I haven't found that to be true, but it really comes down to the items consigned.

[lou_fine]

42 minutes ago, DanCooper said:

A lot of good feedback and insight from all here on the premium situation, but I think we are all overthinking it a bit.

Using the straight $10,000 hammer price example:

Heritage would take a 15% premium from the seller ($1,500) Seller ends up getting paid $8,500 for his consignment.

Heritage would charge 20% premium to the buyer ($2,000) Buyer ends up paying $12,000

The buyer's premium has nothing to do with what the seller gets. It belongs to Heritage solely.

At Comic Connect/Link, they charge the seller normally 10% premium. Seller would get paid $9,000 for his consignment in this example.

Dan;

I believe you are still getting confused between the Heritage hammer price and the reported final cash sale price.

If we go back to the Heritage $10K hammer price, the final cash price paid is $12K which is the price that is captured in Overstreet/GPA and also the one that is reported in all of the comic related media hype.

Now, if CC or CL also gets this same price for the book in their auctions, the hammer price and the final sale price are exactly the same at $12K since both of these auction houses do not have a buyer's premium.  So, this same book would than be reported with a final cash sale price of $12K for all 3 auction houses, and yet the consignor would receive a net amount of $10,800 (i.e. $12,000 less the $1,200 SP), and as you correctly stated a final net of only $8,500 from Heritage if we assume the standard auction fees without any big customer discounts.

Your calculation of a net of $9,000 for CC and CL is not correct because the final cash price for the book is in fact $12,000 and not the $10,000 Heritage hammer price.  This $10K hammer price is only an interim placeholder that is seen only during the actual Heritage bidding process and is not seen by the general collecting base as its gone once the hammer hits.

 

Edited June 26, 2018 by lou_fine

[DanCooper]

34 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Dan;

I believe you are still getting confused between the Heritage hammer price and the reported final cash sale price.

If we go back to the Heritage $10K hammer price, the final cash price paid is $12K which is the price that is captured in Overstreet/GPA and also the one that is reported in all of the comic related media hype.

Now, if CC or CL also gets this same price for the book in their auctions, the hammer price and the final sale price are exactly the same at $12K since both of these auction houses do not have a buyer's premium.  So, this same book would than be reported with a final cash sale price of $12K for all 3 auction houses, and yet the consignor would receive a net amount of $10,800 (i.e. $12,000 less the $1,200 SP), and as you correctly stated a final net of only $8,500 from Heritage if we assume the standard auction fees without any big customer discounts.

Your calculation of a net of $9,000 for CC and CL is not correct because the final cash price for the book is in fact $12,000 and not the $10,000 Heritage hammer price.  This $10K hammer price is only an interim placeholder that is seen only during the actual Heritage bidding process and is not seen by the general collecting base as its gone once the hammer hits.

Understood fully Lou and I appreciate your feedback and patience explaining this.

It's just that, in my mind, I am treating the Heritage Buyer's Premium as a separate part of the transaction between Heritage and the buyer and not involving the seller.

I understand that the final result price (with buyer's premium involved) is what ultimately all people would want payments to be based on (myself included! )

Thanks again

Mike

( it's really Mike. "DanCooper" is a handle)

 

 

 

[tth2]

On 6/26/2018 at 3:43 AM, lou_fine said:

Well, now this is a completely different scenario then and almost like comparing apples and oranges.

So, unless you are a big time collector and ongoing consignor like Tim who deals in high 5-figure books, other BSD's who deals in 6-figure books, or hook up with one of these guys, you really are back to your hopeful 25% to 35% fees versus your standard 10% fees for both CC and CL. 

Sounds to me that if you are a collector sitting on say, $1M or $2M worth of vintage books in your collection, you will most likely have to sell it all in one or two shots on their terms if you want to get the Heritage fees back down to a reasonable level.  Now, if you wanted to dispose of your collection on your own terms over an extended number of years, then you are most probably out of luck if you go with Heritage.

Sounds to me like a long term collector would still be better off if they didn't want to cash it all out in one shot, and simply go with either CC or CL and parcel out their collection at their own desired pace.  Especially since any additional monies they might have gain from the higher profile and longer reach of the immediate Heritage listings would most likely not make up for the fact that your better books would hopefully increase enough in value over the years to make up any difference by the time you do decide to sell them. 

Dean, I would suggest that you not make any assumptions about what you might or might not be able to get from Heritage and simply talk with them first.  You might be surprised.  In your particular case, because you're a well-known collector (with a great collection despite your best efforts to "aw shucks" everybody), Heritage might very well be willing to offer you attractive terms even without a large commitment from yourself in order to get you in the door. 

The other point I would mention is that Heritage will usually drop the entire SP straight away for any consignment that is Signature Auction worthy.  I sometimes think they have the SP just to have something to give away immediately during negotiations.  The real negotiation is on the BP.  So throw out all the 35%'s and what not, the 20% BP is the real starting comparison point with Comiclink and CC.