Heritage BP increasing 0

[entalmighty1]

38 minutes ago, HENRYSPENCER said:

You can factor the BP into your bid, but in reality, you are paying MORE than what the items worth respective to market.  BP artificially inflates the price of the items as in addition to the sale price you are paying a percentage tacked on to the auction house.  That half a percentage point means subsequent sales will be higher than they previously would have been and sellers, dealers, and other auction venues will be comparing their future asking prices to those sales at Heritage with the new higher BP. These items with the new 20% BP will be reported to GPA Analysis and will over inflate asking prices more than they already are. Auction houses being able to adjust BP whenever they so desire and the vice-grip, ripple effect it creates on the rest of the hobby is one of the many reasons why I think auctions, in general, should be tightly regulated.  When interest rates are low, they can adjust BP to their liking, and in the end, they can collect whatever percentage they deem necessary to keep their business looking better to investors than it actually is.

WAT?

I win books from Heritage fairly often, and very rarely do I pay over GPA, unless it's a hot book.  Many times, I've gotten books for significantly under GPA.  The bid has the BP factored in.  If you bid $2,000 for a book, you already know your actual bid is $2,400, and it says it on the screen before you click the button.  There are no surprises.  You don't win auctions for 5k, then get a bill for 6k.

As far as auction houses manipulating results, CC/Metro quite often does 6 month interest free auctions for bigger books.  You don't think that comes into play too?

[tth2]

2 hours ago, DC|Marvel said:

Wow you are quite a friendly chap. How did you extrapolate a supposed misunderstanding on my end?  I was merely saying that 20% when you see that number at face value; it appears to be a bit stiff. But of course I do realize in that particular platform for those types of services, its the standard/norm i.e. Sotheby's etc.  

Who cares if it's 20% or 50%?  You factor it in when you submit your bid so that the total amount you will have to pay is exactly the same either way.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for someone who claims to be an ex-quant.  Say the total amount you are willing to expend on a book is $1000, then if the BP is 20%, the bid you submit is $833.  If the BP is 50%, the bid you submit is $666.  Add the BP, and the total net amount is $1000!  Wow, how about that!  The magic of math!

[Bird]

18 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Who cares if it's 20% or 50%?  You factor it in when you submit your bid so that the total amount you will have to pay is exactly the same either way.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for someone who claims to be an ex-quant.  Say the total amount you are willing to expend on a book is $1000, then if the BP is 20%, the bid you submit is $833.  If the BP is 50%, the bid you submit is $666.  Add the BP, and the total net amount is $1000!  Wow, how about that!  The magic of math!

I agree with this. The business behind the sale is irrelevant as long as all costs/fees/etc. are disclosed upfront. How the auction house divvies up my money matters not to me and sellers continue to have the power to sell at other venues if they believe too much $ is being taken by any one business.

[BAT MAN]

40 minutes ago, tth2 said:

Who cares if it's 20% or 50%?  You factor it in when you submit your bid so that the total amount you will have to pay is exactly the same either way.

I can't believe I have to spell this out for someone who claims to be an ex-quant.  Say the total amount you are willing to expend on a book is $1000, then if the BP is 20%, the bid you submit is $833.  If the BP is 50%, the bid you submit is $666.  Add the BP, and the total net amount is $1000!  Wow, how about that!  The magic of math!

You really think you are enlightening me by above description? This goes without saying. Water is wet and the sky is blue. Thanks I know this to be so. Of course you simply factor the BP into your hammer bid.

Sometimes text and meaning can get lost in translation because we are in a virtual forum but seriously I can not believe the above narrative is what you interpreted from my two sentence post. This exchange is actually a good lesson for me because I generally keep most observations to myself and don't post "out loud."  Will stick with the like, haha, and thanks feature buttons because then you wind up in an exchange like this which is an uber waste of everyone's time.  

[RareHighGrade]

Maybe a better way to explain it is this:  The amount of the BP should have no effect whatsoever on a buyer because a buyer will always be able to try to buy a book for the amount he wants to pay simply by factoring the BP into his bid.  In the end, his bid either is or is not the winning one.  Only the seller is potentially impacted by the BP because the amount the seller receives for the sale is reduced by the 20% BP (as well as the SP) unless he negotiates a better deal with Heritage, which he usually can do.

Simply put, while the amounts of the BP and SP may impact a seller's decision regarding which auction venue to choose, it should have no impact on a buyer's willingness to participate in a Heritage auction.

Edited July 1, 2018 by RareHighGrade

[Robot Man]

All true. Me, in addition to not wanting to compete with over zealous, deep pocketed buyers, I just don’t like the questionable auction laws in TX.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Heritage's blood pressure is going up...? Yikes!

But seriously, I lose far, far more than I win, because most people will tend to see the smaller number...even when the larger number is literally right there...and you can often end up paying more than FMV competing against people who don't pay as close attention as do you. You see something, and it's really nifty, and it's just the right kind of that something, and it's not a bad price, and grrrrr....ok, fine. Click.

Hence...the model.

[tth2]

9 hours ago, DC|Marvel said:

You really think you are enlightening me by above description? This goes without saying. Water is wet and the sky is blue. Thanks I know this to be so. Of course you simply factor the BP into your hammer bid.

Sometimes text and meaning can get lost in translation because we are in a virtual forum but seriously I can not believe the above narrative is what you interpreted from my two sentence post. This exchange is actually a good lesson for me because I generally keep most observations to myself and don't post "out loud."  Will stick with the like, haha, and thanks feature buttons because then you wind up in an exchange like this which is an uber waste of everyone's time.  

So please enlighten us on the point of your posts then, because you seemed to be criticizing high BPs.  If, as you claim above, you understand that one simply factors BPs (whatever the percentage is) into one's bid, then what's the issue?

[tth2]

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Heritage's blood pressure is going up...? Yikes!

But seriously, I lose far, far more than I win, because most people will tend to see the smaller number...even when the larger number is literally right there...and you can often end up paying more than FMV competing against people who don't pay as close attention as do you. You see something, and it's really nifty, and it's just the right kind of that something, and it's not a bad price, and grrrrr....ok, fine. Click.

Hence...the model.

To me, that just means that subconsciously, they were willing to pay a higher price.

[jimjum12]

8 minutes ago, tth2 said:

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Heritage's blood pressure is going up...? Yikes!

But seriously, I lose far, far more than I win, because most people will tend to see the smaller number...even when the larger number is literally right there...and you can often end up paying more than FMV competing against people who don't pay as close attention as do you. You see something, and it's really nifty, and it's just the right kind of that something, and it's not a bad price, and grrrrr....ok, fine. Click.

Hence...the model.

To me, that just means that subconsciously, they were willing to pay a higher price.

...sometimes, winning is losing.... GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

….. and on a positive note.... we in the hobby are fortunate in that ALL of the auction houses that serve us are top notch …. 

[BAT MAN]

7 minutes ago, tth2 said:

So please enlighten us on the point of your posts then, because you seemed to be criticizing high BPs.  If, as you claim above, you understand that one simply factors BPs (whatever the percentage is) into one's bid, then what's the issue?

The genesis of my post was from the sell side perspective. My instinct is that money is being left on the table in certain instances because of the BP; say for a more common key in the 9.0 - 9.4 range. I did not get a chance to log into my Heritage account to do some DD. But I wanted to pull a bunch of auctions for a IH 181, ASM 129, etc. and contrast end prices against CL and CC. If the prices are at par, then clearly seller is better served elsewhere.

This kind of got planted last month when I was looking up some 35 cent price variant auctions for Star Wars and a few other slabs. I was really surprised at the hammer price on several of them (meaning I expected a much higher price.) I would have actually happily paid a couple of the end prices.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

27 minutes ago, tth2 said:

3 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Heritage's blood pressure is going up...? Yikes!

But seriously, I lose far, far more than I win, because most people will tend to see the smaller number...even when the larger number is literally right there...and you can often end up paying more than FMV competing against people who don't pay as close attention as do you. You see something, and it's really nifty, and it's just the right kind of that something, and it's not a bad price, and grrrrr....ok, fine. Click.

Hence...the model.

To me, that just means that subconsciously, they were willing to pay a higher price.

Absolutely. But I know I've gotten invoices where the BP is added in, and I cringe a bit at the final price. I knew what it was going to be...I knew what it was going to be when I bid...but there's a sort of mental sleight of hand going on that subtly lulls me into focusing on the bid price, rather than the final price. I've won items at a final price that I sat back and said "ugh. I shouldn't have bid that much. I didn't really want it at that price." And I can't be the only one.

And that's how they get everyone to pay jusssst a little more. Even with the information staring you right in the face. It's a neat psychological trick.

[RockMyAmadeus]

24 minutes ago, jimjum12 said:

...sometimes, winning is losing.... GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

….. and on a positive note.... we in the hobby are fortunate in that ALL of the auction houses that serve us are top notch …. 

Exactly. Heritage aren't fools. They know exactly what they're doing, and how they manipulate bidders...nothing nefarious about it, but it IS manipulation.

There were some things in the Sunday auctions three weeks ago that I had no business winning at the price I did. Including a lovely Sergio Groo sketch that I probably could have gotten Sergio to do for me for half the price I paid. Oops.

This one:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/sketches/sergio-aragones-groo-the-wanderer-sketch-original-art-1985-/a/121824-13007.s

Still...it's a pretty great sketch!

Heritage is my casino.  I can't go every week, or I'd be broke.

[adamstrange]

45 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

And that's how they get everyone to pay jusssst a little more. Even with the information staring you right in the face. It's a neat psychological trick.

It must work to some degree or it wouldn't be so popular with auction houses.

It's never bothered me because I've trained myself to focus on the actual total and the not the "fake" number I put in to achieve that amount.

[adamstrange]

44 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Exactly. Heritage aren't fools. They know exactly what they're doing, and how they manipulate bidders...nothing nefarious about it, but it IS manipulation.

There were some things in the Sunday auctions three weeks ago that I had no business winning at the price I did. Including a lovely Sergio Groo sketch that I probably could have gotten Sergio to do for me for half the price I paid. Oops.

This one:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/sketches/sergio-aragones-groo-the-wanderer-sketch-original-art-1985-/a/121824-13007.s

Still...it's a pretty great sketch!

Heritage is my casino.  I can't go every week, or I'd be broke.

Cool sketch!

I think Sergio's rate for sketches are such that you did fine in the auction.  The last time I heard about his prices was a couple years ago and based on that I think you would have paid that much direct given the number of characters.

[Howling Mad]

I have, and will continue to, never bid on Heritage Auctions. The fact that they now get 20% on the buyer's end, as well as 10% on the seller's end I believe, is ridiculous.

[buttock]

36 minutes ago, Howling Mad said:

I have, and will continue to, never bid on Heritage Auctions. The fact that they now get 20% on the buyer's end, as well as 10% on the seller's end I believe, is ridiculous.

Tim, you're up.

[october]

7 hours ago, buttock said:

Tim, you're up.

It's like Whack A Mole up in here. 

[G.A.tor]

15 minutes ago, october said:

It's like Whack A Mole up in here. 

I think so few of those posting actually read the entirety of posts 

[tth2]

10 hours ago, DC|Marvel said:

The genesis of my post was from the sell side perspective. My instinct is that money is being left on the table in certain instances because of the BP; say for a more common key in the 9.0 - 9.4 range. I did not get a chance to log into my Heritage account to do some DD. But I wanted to pull a bunch of auctions for a IH 181, ASM 129, etc. and contrast end prices against CL and CC. If the prices are at par, then clearly seller is better served elsewhere.

This kind of got planted last month when I was looking up some 35 cent price variant auctions for Star Wars and a few other slabs. I was really surprised at the hammer price on several of them (meaning I expected a much higher price.) I would have actually happily paid a couple of the end prices.

 

 

From a sell side perspective, you're absolutely right.  Sorry, that wasn't clear from your original post.

On the other hand, as has been stated in this thread, very few sellers pay full freight to Heritage.  And if for some reason they can't get better terms from Heritage, then like you I would think that it makes much more sense for them to sell on CL and CC.

What bothers me about CL is that they are unwilling to negotiate on their seller's commission (at least they weren't willing with me).  I've never looked at consigning with CC so have never had the discussion with them.