Ask Redbeard Tales of a veteran comic book dealer 5 5

[Redbeard]

8 hours ago, marmat said:

No, sorry, that's not what I mean. Sometimes my english let me down. I know there are a lot more collectors today.

What I want to ask you is your opinion about the number of comic collectors back in the mid 60's, nationwide. Someone is defending the theory that in 1965 there was only around 1000 comic collectors. Others believe there was more. I personally think that only 1000 nationwide is a very low number, even 53 years ago. With comics print runs in the hundred of thousands, I'd think the number of collectors would be at least 10000, but I have no proof to support my opinion. 

Based on your own experience, how many comic collectors there was back in 1965?

 

Great question, and one that is tough to answer. First, we need to distiguish that there is a difference between comic book readership and comic book collectors. That throws a kink in basing the number of collectors on the amount of new comic book sales. If we define the difference as a collector as someone that reads comic books and then saves them versus one that reads and discards comic books, then the number of collectors decreases dramatically. Since I wasn't around in the 60s when FF1 was on the stands, I can't really comment on an estimate on the number of collectors. It should be remembered by the late 1960s around 1966, we had comic book stores open nationwide. Unsold comic books were stored in back rooms, garages and warehouses which accounts for the ease of locating Marvel/DC titles from 1966 to present. However, by the late 70s and early 80s, Bob (Overstreet) told me that he was selling over 100,000 Price Guides annually. Now we know you have to be a collector to buy one of those. The number has increased dramatically with the age of big screen comic book movies. I would guess today we are around 1/2 million to a million collectors worldwide. I believe that is a high estimate. Always be aware that comic book collecting today is a global phenomenon.

[Redbeard]

10 minutes ago, Timely said:

At one point he did. Verzyl told me the whole sad story.

John Verzyl used to like to joke around for fun. I know for a fact that John McLaughlin had the MH books in a wooden cabinet with doors in his house in Anaheim Hills. That would make it almost impossible for a cat to get in there, let alone pee on any books. Before the books were stored in that cabinet in his house, they were at the Book Sail store, and I know there was no cat in the store. John did not keep the books at his house in Orange. I really think Verzyl was pulling your leg on this one. Now I can confirm that McLauglin definitely read early issues of the pulp Dime Mystery while soaking in his bathtub. Both John and Dave Smith told me about that. Dave thought John was crazy to do this. These were incredible copies, like brand new with white pages. They were so new that John used a ruler to separate the pages and hold them while he read them. I'll see if I can reach my old friend Dave Smith, he lives in Washington now. If anyone would know, it would be Dave on this cat pee myth.

[Timely]

34 minutes ago, Redbeard said:

John Verzyl used to like to joke around for fun. I know for a fact that John McLaughlin had the MH books in a wooden cabinet with doors in his house in Anaheim Hills. That would make it almost impossible for a cat to get in there, let alone pee on any books. Before the books were stored in that cabinet in his house, they were at the Book Sail store, and I know there was no cat in the store. John did not keep the books at his house in Orange. I really think Verzyl was pulling your leg on this one. Now I can confirm that McLauglin definitely read early issues of the pulp Dime Mystery while soaking in his bathtub. Both John and Dave Smith told me about that. Dave thought John was crazy to do this. These were incredible copies, like brand new with white pages. They were so new that John used a ruler to separate the pages and hold them while he read them. I'll see if I can reach my old friend Dave Smith, he lives in Washington now. If anyone would know, it would be Dave on this cat pee myth.

Here are a few scans of those famous "cat pee" comics.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/yankee-comics-3-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1942-condition-vg-fn-nice-off-white-to-white-pages-water-stain-through-top/a/752-51374.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-15-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-vf-the-distinctive-style-of-paul-gattuso-is-seen-on-this-ho/a/752-51128.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-19-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1946-condition-fn-paul-gattuso-cover-the-master-key-and-rocketman-are-feat/a/752-51130.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-12-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-fn-this-skull-cover-s-a-true-classic-so-say-we-so-says-ov/a/752-51126.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

If you look at the top back cover you can see it pretty well (it's on the front too).  I can attest that these do have a cat pee smell.  I had the opportunity to hold (and smell) many of these back in 2006 when they were graded by CGC.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Timely

[PopKulture]

21 minutes ago, Timely said:

If you look at the top back cover you can see it pretty well (it's on the front too). 

How can that be?? The description says "water stain through the top of the whole book" on issue no. 12 with the classic skull cover. 

Could Mr. Kitty have sadly had an eye for classic covers?  

Edited August 24, 2018 by PopKulture

[batman_fan]

26 minutes ago, Timely said:

Here are a few scans of those famous "cat pee" comics.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/yankee-comics-3-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1942-condition-vg-fn-nice-off-white-to-white-pages-water-stain-through-top/a/752-51374.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-15-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-vf-the-distinctive-style-of-paul-gattuso-is-seen-on-this-ho/a/752-51128.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-19-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1946-condition-fn-paul-gattuso-cover-the-master-key-and-rocketman-are-feat/a/752-51130.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-12-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-fn-this-skull-cover-s-a-true-classic-so-say-we-so-says-ov/a/752-51126.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

If you look at the top back cover you can see it pretty well (it's on the front too).  I can attest that these do have a cat pee smell.  I had the opportunity to hold (and smell) many of these back in 2006 when they were graded by CGC.

Why wasn’t the cat pee smell noted on the label?  I hope it is at least in the graders notes !

[comicquant]

On 8/16/2018 at 12:24 AM, N e r V said:

When you have time what year and where was this taken?

 

My 5 yr old son asked what that “machine” was behind Ron...  I told him that’s what iPods looked like when I was his age.

[Sqeggs]

On 8/24/2018 at 9:36 AM, PUNYHUMAN said:

\There had to be in  imho more then 1000 collectors in 1965.  I was collecting back in 1965. There was at least 5 collectors in my small town that I knew. Jerry Weist put out Squa Tront fanzine at 1500 copies by then. I don't think every collector in the country bought one. Biljo White put out also Batmania with over 1000 copies . These are examples , I would think. There was a lot more readers I think , but Fandom was bigger then 1000 collectors . What about EC fandom in the 1950's. When Creepy Magazine hit the newsstand around this time it sold and not to just readers . It was  EC comics again for fans. "Wally Wood, Frazetta, etc." Again I could be totally wrong but these are examples.

I was just a wee bonny laddie in 1965, but if by "collector" you mean people who were trying to assemble runs, haunted used book stores looking for comics, and ordered from Rogofsky's catalog, then I probably knew (or knew of) at least 100 people in the San Francisco area and I'm sure there were many more whom I didn't know.  Just a horseback guess, but I would think there were probably at least several thousand collectors by then and the total was probably higher, maybe much higher. 

[lou_fine]

4 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

I was just a wee bonny laddie in 1965, but if by "collector" you mean people who were trying to assemble runs, haunted used book stores looking for comics, and ordered from Rogofsky's catalog, then I probably knew (or knew of) at least 100 people in the San Francisco area and I'm sure there were many more whom I didn't know.  Just a horseback guess, but I would think there were probably at least several thousand collectors by then and the total was probably higher, maybe much higher. 

+1

There most definitely must have been way more than 1,000 comic book collectors back then.  

Especially since 1965 was already a few years AFTER the Marvel Age of Comics had started.

[G.A.tor]

5 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

+1

There most definitely must have been way more than 1,000 comic book collectors back then.  

Especially since 1965 was already a few years AFTER the Marvel Age of Comics had started.

And 5 years into the ospg. Folks were accumulating, cataloging and collecting. 

[lou_fine]

5 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

11 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

+1

There most definitely must have been way more than 1,000 comic book collectors back then.  

Especially since 1965 was already a few years AFTER the Marvel Age of Comics had started.

And 5 years into the ospg. Folks were accumulating, cataloging and collecting. 

Actually, '65 was still 5 years AWAY from the Overstreet, although the Argosy Comic Book Price Guide did come out in 1965. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by lou_fine

[Robot Man]

30 minutes ago, Sqeggs said:

I was just a wee bonny laddie in 1965, but if by "collector" you mean people who were trying to assemble runs, haunted used book stores looking for comics, and ordered from Rogofsky's catalog, then I probably knew (or knew of) at least 100 people in the San Francisco area and I'm sure there were many more whom I didn't know.  Just a horseback guess, but I would think there were probably at least several thousand collectors by then and the total was probably higher, maybe much higher. 

That was about the time I really started "collecting" rather than just reading. At the time I was trying to put together the run of MAD Magazine. I would trade with kids in the neighborhood, go to garage sales, put ads on the bulletin board at grocery stores and ride my bike to all the used book stores in the area. I hadn't discovered mail order by then. I consider myself a "collector" when I actually paid more than cover price for something. In my case, $2.00 for MAD #9. I was collecting Marvels but the runs at that time were pretty short maybe 25 issues? They were then, like now pretty easy to get. Most kids in my neighborhood were readers not collectors but I did know about 3 kids that did what I did.

[Mmehdy]

1 hour ago, lou_fine said:

+1

There most definitely must have been way more than 1,000 comic book collectors back then.  

Especially since 1965 was already a few years AFTER the Marvel Age of Comics had started.

early 1962 there were a lot kids who collected comic books but older teen collectors were there especially when the first 10 FF's came out, they were a really big at the hit...and changed things

[MrBedrock]

22 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

they were a really big at the hit...and changed things

exactly

[G.A.tor]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Actually, '65 was still 5 years AWAY from the Overstreet, although the Argosy Comic Book Price Guide did come out in 1965. 

It was sarcasm! Doh!

[Redbeard]

On 8/24/2018 at 12:27 PM, Timely said:

Here are a few scans of those famous "cat pee" comics.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/yankee-comics-3-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1942-condition-vg-fn-nice-off-white-to-white-pages-water-stain-through-top/a/752-51374.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-15-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-vf-the-distinctive-style-of-paul-gattuso-is-seen-on-this-ho/a/752-51128.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-19-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1946-condition-fn-paul-gattuso-cover-the-master-key-and-rocketman-are-feat/a/752-51130.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-12-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-fn-this-skull-cover-s-a-true-classic-so-say-we-so-says-ov/a/752-51126.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

If you look at the top back cover you can see it pretty well (it's on the front too).  I can attest that these do have a cat pee smell.  I had the opportunity to hold (and smell) many of these back in 2006 when they were graded by CGC.

Wow! How interesting. I just don't remember John having a cat. I can't reach Dave Smith since he has such a common name. I just know that Dave remarried and lives in Washington state. Last time I heard from Dave, he was a paralegal. I can't recall if Lilly (John's ex) had a cat. I can't remember where Nina lives. She was an ex-girlfriend of John's and worked sometimes at the Book Sail. She used to come to Comic-Con on occasion. She would also probably know the story. I wonder whether this occurred after John left So Ca and moved back to NY. It could have even happened after John passed and the books went to his heirs (probably his son). 

[thehumantorch]

Yankee Comics #3  Nice off-white to white pages. Water stain through top of entire comic. Siamese pages that have been separated. Overstreet 2006 VG 4.0 value = $120; FN 6.0 value = $180.From the John McLaughlin Collection. "

Clearly he had a Siamese cat.

[Robot Man]

Looks like his "kitty" didn't like Chesslers much...

PUNCH #12!!!  That cat would be living on the street...

[lou_fine]

On 8/24/2018 at 12:27 PM, Timely said:

Here are a few scans of those famous "cat pee" comics.

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-15-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-vf-the-distinctive-style-of-paul-gattuso-is-seen-on-this-ho/a/752-51128.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-12-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-fn-this-skull-cover-s-a-true-classic-so-say-we-so-says-ov/a/752-51126.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

Went back to Chuck's original Mile High Catalog to check how he had graded them and both of these issues were not in the catalog.

I guess somebody must have liked the Punch covers and snagged them right away as quite a few of them were not listed in Chuck's original MH catalog, including both Punch 1 and Punch 12.  

[Sqeggs]

19 hours ago, lou_fine said:

On 8/24/2018 at 3:27 PM, Timely said:

Here are a few scans of those famous "cat pee" comics.

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-15-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-vf-the-distinctive-style-of-paul-gattuso-is-seen-on-this-ho/a/752-51128.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/punch-comics-12-mile-high-pedigree-chesler-1945-condition-fn-this-skull-cover-s-a-true-classic-so-say-we-so-says-ov/a/752-51126.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

Went back to Chuck's original Mile High Catalog to check how he had graded them and both of these issues were not in the catalog.

I guess somebody must have liked the Punch covers and snagged them right away as quite a few of them were not listed in Chuck's original MH catalog, including both Punch 1 and Punch 12.  

McLaughlin bought most (all?) of his books pre-catalog didn't he? I could be wrong about that but I thought that's what I've read.

[Robot Man]

Odds are good that he might have bought these at the Casual Con in Anaheim before Chuck made the list. I got a bunch there as did many SO CA collectors. And, these were probably priced between $10-$20.   I didn't see them and probably would have bought them if I had. For sure the #12.