Shang-Chi coming to a theater near you 5 5

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:13 PM, fantastic_four said:

Here's the full story from Strange Tales 89; each image is clickable for a full, easily-readable version of the page.  Still reading it, but it very definitely is set entirely in China.  It also has some Communist stuff in it I need to mull over.

      

      

He landed in China. He was not from China. From the video above.

• Strange Tales 089 (1961)
• Tales of Suspense 062 (1965)
• Astonishing Tales 023-024 (1974)
• Thor 379 (1987)
• Legion of Night 001-002 (1991)
• Iron Man 260-275 (1990-1991)
• Iron Man 015-017 (1999)
• JLA/Avengers 001 (2003)
• Thor 080 (2004)
• Marvel Monsters: Fin Fang Four (2005)
• Marvel Monsters: Monsters on the Prowl (2005)
• From the Files of Ulysses Bloodstone (2005)
• Nextwave 001-002 (2006)
• Marvel Holiday Special (2006)
• Hulk vs Fin Fang Foom (2008)
• Invincible Iron Man Annual 001 (2010)
• Age of Heroes 003 (2010)
• Franken-Castle 021 (2010)
• Astonishing X-Men 036-037, 039 (2011)
• Incredible Hulks 630-635 (2011)
• Wolverine and the X-Men 017 (2012)
• Indestructible Hulk 014 (2013)
• Fantastic Four 001 (2014)
• Totally Awesome Hulk 002-003 (2016)
• Drax 003-005, 010-011 (2016)
• Gwenpool Holiday Special: Merry Mix-Up (2016)
• Monsters Unleashed 001-005 (2017)
• Tony Stark: Iron Man 001 (2018)

[@therealsilvermane]

Okay, so Stan Lee allegedly stated that Fin Fang Foom's name was inspired by a 1930's American film called Chu Chin Chow. Again, a lot of western depictions of China are filtered through a stereotype lens, including Lee's inspiration for Foom's name.

[Bosco685]

It's like declaring the Chitauri are from New York in the MCU. Because - you know. They landed there in Marvel's the Avengers.

Marvel Comics further clarified Fin Fang Foom's origins and revealed in Iron Man #274 (1991) written by John Byrne that Fin Fang Foom was truly an alien being.

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:28 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Okay, so Stan Lee allegedly stated that Fin Fang Foom's name was inspired by a 1930's American film called Chu Chin Chow. Again, a lot of western depictions of China are filtered through a stereotype lens, including Lee's inspiration for Foom's name.

I read that on wiki about his interview too. Meanwhile, Marvel Comics history revealed over time the space origin and of the fellow nine dragons.

But let's classify Stan Lee as a racist now. That will be the icing on the purple cake. Admit it. You didn't know the character's full story.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Bosco685

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:39 PM, Bosco685 said:

I read that on wiki about his interview too. Meanwhile, Marvel Comics history revealed over time the space origin and of the fellow nine dragons.

But lets classify Stan Lee as a racist now. That will be the icing on the purple cake.

It's not the dragon or the story itself that's the issue. The monster could be an interdimensional being that BAMFS from one dimension to the next and it wouldn't matter. It's the name that's the issue. Fin Fang Foom. Chu Chin Chow. Fu Manchu. It's a dated western "Chinese" name and now deemed offensive to modern China. 

Just to be clear, I could care less about the Fin Fang Foom name and I even have a shirt with the character on it with the name in big letters that I'll probably wear tomorrow. I'm just discussing why Fin Fang Foom is probably deemed offensive to China as Shang-Chi star Simu Liu noted in an interview earlier this year.

Edited November 15, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

This must have been the one someone didn't read while getting steamed up to repeat talking points to protest Marvel history.

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:51 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

It's not the dragon or the story itself that's the issue. The monster could be an interdimensional being that BAMFS from one dimension to the next and it wouldn't matter. It's the name that's the issue. Fin Fang Foom. Chu Chin Chow. Fu Manchu. It's a dated western depiction and now deemed offensive to China. 

Just to be clear, I could care less about the Fin Fang Foom name and I even have a shirt with the character on it with the name in big letters that I'll probably wear tomorrow. I'm just discussing why Fin Fang Foom is probably deemed offensive to China as Shang-Chi star Simu Liu noted in an interview earlier this year.

Out of ignorance of the character's story throughout Marvel's history Simu Liu noted it was was 'questionable'. Not offensive. I actually posted the NBC article.

On 11/15/2021 at 3:56 PM, Bosco685 said:

During an NBC interview, Simu Liu mentioned Fin Fang Foom would not be appearing. But he didn't outright call the character offensive or racist.

NBC NEWS: Simu Liu, the Asian Marvel superhero emerging at a critical time

Quote

“We have a lot of heroes. We have Asian heroes, we have Asian American heroes, men, women, of all ages, and not all of them do martial arts,” he said. “But that doesn't mean that they don't have their own arcs, their own stories, their own subtleties and nuances. And I think that's what's important.”

 

It also helps, Liu said, that some questionable elements from the source material, like the shape-shifting dragon-like being puzzlingly named “Fin Fang Foom,” do not make an appearance in the movie. 

So again - are you now implying Stan Lee was a racist and just did all this as a cold-hearted Caucasian male?

[fantastic_four]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:28 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Okay, so Stan Lee allegedly stated that Fin Fang Foom's name was inspired by a 1930's American film called Chu Chin Chow. Again, a lot of western depictions of China are filtered through a stereotype lens, including Lee's inspiration for Foom's name.

Never heard of it.  Are we sure that film or its name is racist?  I'm familiar with the phrase "ching-chong" being a racist way to mock Mandarin and it's easy to see the repetitive "ch" sound at the beginning of the three words in the name of that film, but I'd have to see the film and know what the title means before assuming it's racist.

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:00 PM, fantastic_four said:

Never heard of it.  Are we sure that film or its name is racist?  I'm familiar with the phrase "ching-chong" being a racist way to mock Mandarin and it's easy to see the repetitive "ch" sound at the beginning of the three words in the name of that film, but I'd have to see the film and know what the title means before assuming it's racist.

Sorry. But way to feed the ignorance.

[fantastic_four]

I'm seeing that the Chu Chin Chow film was released twice, and it's an adaptation of a musical that originally ran in Britain starting in 1916.  This is the wiki link to the play that has the most information about it.  Nobody has yet noted racist stereotypes in the wiki article, which doesn't mean they aren't there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Chin_Chow

[jimjum12]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:00 PM, @therealsilvermane said:

Although it wasn't meant to be offensive when Stan Lee and Jack Kirby created the character, the name Fin Fang Foom, meant to sound "oriental" as the dragon was from Asia, is still a western depiction of "the Orient" in the 60's which was often filtered through stereotype views in western literature and yes, comic books. The story itself was harmless from a sociological standpoint I believe. It's just an alien monster yarn.

The details were modified a bit to maintain a fictional stance, but a Chinese character awakened Fin Fang Foom to thwart an invasion of his Island by forces from mainland communist China... a touchy subject amongst certain circles today. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:11 PM, jimjum12 said:

The details were modified a bit to maintain a fictional stance, but a Chinese character awakened Fin Fang Foom to thwart an invasion of his Island by forces from mainland communist China... a touchy subject amongst certain circles today. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

A Chinese character awakened Fin Fang Foom. I agree. Dragons should remain asleep.

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:00 PM, fantastic_four said:

Never heard of it.  Are we sure that film or its name is racist?  I'm familiar with the phrase "ching-chong" being a racist way to mock Mandarin and it's easy to see the repetitive "ch" sound at the beginning of the three words in the name of that film, but I'd have to see the film and know what the title means before assuming it's racist.

I'm quite sure Stan Lee wasn't intending to mock Chinese language or be racist when he invented the name Fin Fang Foom in the 1960's. A lot of things we did or said in the past aren't really acceptable today. I guess it isn't official if Fin Fang Foom is considered offensive to China today, but there's a good chance it would. I have a feeling that if Michele Yeoh's character said with all seriousness that a dragon's name was "Fin Fang Foom", people in the theater would laugh. It's a silly name and an outdated western version of Chinese phonetics and language. There's a very good chance Disney would be in even more trouble with China then they are now had they included Fin Fang Foom in Shang Chi. Either way, it's moot. Shang Chi will probably never see the light of day in China outside of pirating. 

[fantastic_four]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:06 PM, fantastic_four said:

I'm seeing that the Chu Chin Chow film was released twice, and it's an adaptation of a musical that originally ran in Britain starting in 1916.  This is the wiki link to the play that has the most information about it.  Nobody has yet noted racist stereotypes in the wiki article, which doesn't mean they aren't there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Chin_Chow

Apparently chin chow has two decidedly non-racist connotations--it's a type of jelly that originated in China, and it's a historical name for a city in China that today is named Jinzhou.

I'm now done following this unless someone can find more history or etymology of the name of that musical that makes it clear it's racist.  You can't assume the name of that musical is racist simply because it shares a few consonants with a slur given that there are multiple historical uses of the words in the musical's name, and by extension you can't assume Fin Fang Foom is racist if it derives from a musical whose name isn't racist.  Certainly the time period of the play saw PLENTY of racist stereotypes--and we saw Kirby and others perpetuating those about Japanese people in early Cap comics--but I can't find evidence that the musical is an example of a racist stereotype.

Which doesn't mean that evidence doesn't exist, I just can't find it yet.    I know the West often mis-translates Chinese words, so who knows if chin chow or wherever the name of that play came from are mistranslations of questionable origin.  It's certainly possible, but challenging to trace the history of.

But what did strike me is Kirby's art on the faces of the Chinese people in that issue of Strange Tales...it seems a bit problematic.    Could be wrong though, I need to research that style a bit more--but it seems highly exaggerated and something we wouldn't see today.

Edited November 15, 2021 by fantastic_four

[jimjum12]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:14 PM, Bosco685 said:

A Chinese character awakened Fin Fang Foom. I agree. Dragons should remain asleep.

I haven't read Strange Tales 89 in a while, but I recall it as a very close parallel to the Chinese / Taiwan relationship of recent decades, with Stan and his hero siding on the Democracy side, as he always did. Strange Tales 83, with Grog, was also a classic anti-communism story, popular in the Atlas canon of the day. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[fantastic_four]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:24 PM, jimjum12 said:

I haven't read Strange Tales 89 in a while, but I recall it as a very close parallel to the Chinese / Taiwan relationship of recent decades, with Stan and his hero siding on the Democracy side, as he always did. Strange Tales 83, with Grog, was also a classic anti-communism story, popular in the Atlas canon of the day. GOD BLESS...

That anti-Communist angle was my initial read as well, but that was based upon just a few word bubbles I read.  I haven't read the entire story yet, going to later tonight.

[jimjum12]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:27 PM, fantastic_four said:

That anti-Communist angle was my initial read as well, but that was based upon just a few word bubbles I read.  I haven't read the entire story yet, going to later tonight.

It is easily one of my top 5 of the PHM stories... the first Xemnu (HULK) is another (JIM 62), and also ST 83, and a few more. I LOVE those monster books that preceded the Marvel Age. They almost always focused on a clever hero outsmarting oppression... not a popular theme amongst the communists.  GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited November 15, 2021 by jimjum12

[@therealsilvermane]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:20 PM, fantastic_four said:

Apparently chin chow has two decidedly non-racist connotations--it's a type of jelly that originated in China, and it's a historical name for a city in China that today is named Jinzhou.

I'm now done following this unless someone can find more history or etymology of the name of that musical that makes it clear it's racist.  You can't assume the name of that musical is racist simply because it shares a few consonants with a slur given that there are multiple historical uses of the words in the musical's name, and by extension you can't assume Fin Fang Foom is racist if it doesn't derive from a musical whose name isn't racist.  Certainly the time period of the play saw PLENTY of racist stereotypes, but I can't find evidence that the musical is an example of one.

Which doesn't mean that evidence doesn't exist, I just can't find it yet.  

I agree this topic has gone on a little long. As a last word from me, Chu Chin Chow seems to be a pretty obscure film so you probably won't find a lot of modern analysis on it. And it's not necessarily about whether it's racist or not. The point is that a 1934 British film with the name Chu Chin Chow or a movie that includes a comic book alien dragon named Fin Fang Foom probably will not be allowed to show in the tightly controlled Chinese media because it will probably be deemed offensive by its censors. Again, a lot of western depictions of China culture could be deemed offensive today whether it's Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's or even a harmless alien dragon's name from a 1960's Marvel Comic even though they weren't meant to be offensive at the time.

Edited November 15, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[Bosco685]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:24 PM, jimjum12 said:

I haven't read Strange Tales 89 in a while, but I recall it as a very close parallel to the Chinese / Taiwan relationship of recent decades, with Stan and his hero siding on the Democracy side, as he always did. Strange Tales 83, with Grog, was also a classic anti-communism story, popular in the Atlas canon of the day. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

If this was the case of the offense, Simu Liu has spoken out against China/Communist control. So you think he would have celebrated the anti-Democracy themes.

China turns on star of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings after interview where Simu Liu described his country of birth as a 'third world country where people starve' reappears

See how this cancel culture can get you wrapped up in something? "Fin Fang Foom is offensive" turned into "Well I think the name was offensive because I read it somewhere."

Edited November 15, 2021 by Bosco685

[jimjum12]

On 11/15/2021 at 5:32 PM, Bosco685 said:

If this was the case of the offense, Simu Liu has spoken out against China/Communist control. So you think he would have celebrated the anti-Democracy themes.

China turns on star of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings after interview where Simu Liu described his country of birth as a 'third world country where people starve' reappears

So how this cancel culture can get you wrapped up in something? "Fin Fang Foom is offensive" turned into "Well I think the name was offensive because I read it somewhere."

I just live my life and don't follow any culture. I treat people on a case-by-case basis. As for ST 89 I was just clarifying what the theme of it was. I doubt the leadership in China has studied Marvel beyond the cursory.... the problem is likely as simple as them not wanting Western interpretations of Good and Evil to gain footing or notoreity .... they probably allowed Endgame because it explores genocide as a necessary evil. Trust me, there IS a reason for the censorship. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)