Bob Layton taking Co-Creator Credit for Iron Man? Gone too far in my opinion. 3 3

[Logan510]

4 minutes ago, CAHokie said:

You forgot the choke job where they couldn't beat the Mavericks with one star.  LeBron was basically non-existent in that series. Heck, that series alone shouls prevent him from being best ever,

Biggest superstar meltdown I've ever witnessed in the finals.

[kav]

7 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

 winning also has to matter a little.

Tiger Blood helps-

[ExNihilo]

6 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Biggest superstar meltdown I've ever witnessed in the finals.

I dunno, 2016 Warriors losing 3 straight Finals clinching games was pretty bad.

[Logan510]

11 minutes ago, ExNihilo said:

I dunno, 2016 Warriors losing 3 straight Finals clinching games was pretty bad.

Myriad of reasons for that happening as opposed to the best player in the game disappearing in the 4th quarter.

[Bird]

24 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Wilt was a monster, he did things numbers wise we will never see again, but winning also has to matter a little.

Wilt won and was in the Finals quite a bit but you cannot argue that Boston was a better TEAM. it is a team game after all.

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, Bird said:

Wilt won and was in the Finals quite a bit but you cannot argue that Boston was a better TEAM. it is a team game after all.

I'm not denying he's a great player. The greatest basketball player ever? I can think of at least 5 dudes I'd put ahead of him.

[kav]

Best all around sports player ever-Boobie Miles.

[The Brain]

2 hours ago, ExNihilo said:

Boards talk about Layton, I don't care.

Boards talk about Jordan, I'm all in.

I always cringe when people mention Championships.  Robert Horry has 7 rings, does that make him one of the best.  The only time rings makes sense is when mentioning Bill Russell (11 rings in 13 seasons).  With that out of the way, what metrics do you use to measure Jordan vs Lebron?  A lot of what gets overlooked are intangibles.

The era in which Jordan played featured suffocating defenses.  If Lebron played then, his offensive numbers would certainly be down.

Jordan elevated the play of those around him.  Lebron doesn't.  Jordan and Pippen spent hours before and after practices going one on one.  Pippen has said going up against the best made him better.  Lebron never elevated anyone.  D.Wade was already a champion and highly regarded guard.  Kevin Love and Chris Bosh by and large remained the same above average players they were before.  And it's the same story with Kobe.  Hell, Kobe gets bashed for not being a great teammate on the practice floor.  If you weren't at his level, then you were just some scrub.

League rules changed BECAUSE of Jordan.

Jordan played against the all time greats at a time when there was more parity in the league.  He was part of a team in which the core was built from within.  Sure, guys like Rodman were brought in during free agency, but it's nothing as egregious as Lebron did in Miami and Cleveland building his "Big3" in each city.

Jordan's greatest asset was his fire and will.  No other player has played with that level of grit or intensity.  Lebron wilts in the big moments.  Jordan elevated.  I get it, Lebron's a freak of nature.  One of the greatest of all time.  But there's only one GOAT and it ain't him.

But apologies...back to Bob Layton, co-creator of Iron Man, Batman, The Smurfs, and the Ninja Turtles (among others).

 

With MJ, you build a "team" around him.

With Lebron, his is the "team."

[Logan510]

12 minutes ago, The Brain said:

 

With MJ, you build a "team" around him.

With Lebron, his is the "team."

Really, so he had no help when he won his 3 championships out of 9 attempts?

[kav]

9 minutes ago, Logan510 said:

Really, so he had no help when he won his 3 championships out of 9 attempts?

He had help.  Proof is if he was him vs 5 guys, he'd never score a single point.

[Logan510]

1 minute ago, kav said:

He had help.  Proof is if he was him vs 5 guys, he'd never score a single point.

He formed a super team. Wade and Bosh were top 10 players at the time when they started the super friends.

[kav]

1 minute ago, Logan510 said:

He formed a super team. Wade and Bosh were top 10 players at the time when they started the super friends.

The weird effect is I dont even watch sports and dont know anything about sports and just post stuff I googled, but as an outside observer I'm not liking LeBrawn or thinking he's a better player.  Thats my takeaway just reading this.

[Ryan.]

Bill Russell is the greatest basketball player ever. 

Bob Layton is the greatest Iron Man co-creator ever. 

Fin. Lock the thread. 

[PopKulture]

4 hours ago, Logan510 said:

KAJ is in my top 5 and my favorite center ever, but he does not compare.

Yes, those six championships and six MVP's don't compare, along with those three college championships, not to mention the most points ever in a career and third most rebounds??  

Yep, no comparison against a guy whose most famous shots are something DeMar DeRozan can make any given night, along with twenty other players today. Wow, he made a twelve-foot jumper over Ehlo and pushed off Russell? I will, however, give him credit for making them. I saw them all, and the shots players like Curry and Durant drop routinely these days make MJ look a little outdated - something akin to what Cousy suffers from. Comparisons across eras suffer that way. And no way Jordan makes that running bank LBJ does, just sayin.   

Jordan's defensive prowess is a very strong asset, and noteworthy in these GOAT discussions, not his 6-0 record in the finals. I doubt he wins more than one without Pippen. To somehow accord Jordan the credit for them is bogus. Do you know of anything Jordan did without Pippen that was close to what Wade did nearly single-handedly against Dallas? Fact is, everyone in Chicago saw Pippen have more dominant performances without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen.

Jordan was great and in the conversation, but to ignore him being the beneficiary of certain circumstances ignores certain wisps of reality: he may or may not be the BEST of all time, but he was the most marketed, and right at a time when an ascendant NBA needed him to be great, truth be told. Therein lies perhaps his genius.  

[Prince Namor]

Uh... Pippen without Jordan?

1993-1994 with Chicago (and no MJ) Finished 2nd place and out in the second round of the playoffs with virtually the same team from the year before Jordan won a Championship with. 

 

1994-1995 Started 23-25 without Jordan and then when MJ returned went 13-4, but it wasn’t enough to keep from finishing 3rd and getting knocked out again in the 2nd round. 

 

1998-1999 with the Houston Rockets (with Hakeem and Barkley!) - 3rd place and out in the first round. 

 

1999-2000 with Portland finished 2nd and actually had a nice run in the playoffs before the team choked against the Lakers in the western conference finals. 

 

2000-2001 Portland - finished 4th, knocked out of the first round...

 

Etc. 

 

Pippen was a great player and an exceptional #2 on a team, but to credit him with Jordan’s success? That’s crazy talk. 

[Prince Namor]

Not trying to downplay Pippen’s importance or impact (though I have to mention Game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals vs Detroit - ugh), he was a GREAT player. 

He was a HUGE part of that team and a PERFECT compliment to MJ. And a great defensive player as well. 

But without MJ he never won anything.  

[Prince Namor]

5 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Jordan's defensive prowess is a very strong asset, and noteworthy in these GOAT discussions, not his 6-0 record in the finals. I doubt he wins more than one without Pippen. To somehow accord Jordan the credit for them is bogus. Do you know of anything Jordan did without Pippen that was close to what Wade did nearly single-handedly against Dallas? Fact is, everyone in Chicago saw Pippen have more dominant performances without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen.

 

My my my, how time makes people forget. For one thing, Jordan's play ELEVATED in the playoffs. He was BETTER in the postseason. He was even BETTER in crunch time.

Pippen had of course, Game 7 of the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals when a migrane led to a 1-10 shooting performance that doomed the team, and of course the 1994 NBA Playoffs where he refused to go in for the final play because Phil Jackson gave the shot to Tony Kukoc (remember MJ passing to Paxson for the FINALS game winner just the year before? Team work, no ego) and of course...

Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals, Pippen injured, 8 points for the game, barely could play... what did Jordan do? Almost single handedly takes over the game - 45 points and with the game 86-83 Portland, Jordan makes a lay up to come within 1 and then steals the ball from Malone (with 17 seconds) and comes down the court to make a 20 footer to win the game. All with Pippen barely able to play (26 minutes).

That was in a FINALS - in the DECIDING game. When it mattered the MOST. I love Scottie Pippen (mostly), but give me a break - Jordan was a champion when it mattered most.

Shall we also rehash the other great performances of Jordan's PLAYOFF career?

[theCapraAegagrus]

10 hours ago, kav said:

The weird effect is I dont even watch sports and dont know anything about sports and just post stuff I googled, but as an outside observer I'm not liking LeBrawn or thinking he's a better player.  Thats my takeaway just reading this.

I don't watch basketball, but I know Jordan > LeBron.

Just like Gretzky > Crosby (AINEC). I do watch hockey, though.

[theCapraAegagrus]

44 minutes ago, Chuck Gower said:

Uh... Pippen without Jordan?

1993-1994 with Chicago (and no MJ) Finished 2nd place and out in the second round of the playoffs with virtually the same team from the year before Jordan won a Championship with. 

 

1994-1995 Started 23-25 without Jordan and then when MJ returned went 13-4, but it wasn’t enough to keep from finishing 3rd and getting knocked out again in the 2nd round. 

 

1998-1999 with the Houston Rockets (with Hakeem and Barkley!) - 3rd place and out in the first round. 

 

1999-2000 with Portland finished 2nd and actually had a nice run in the playoffs before the team choked against the Lakers in the western conference finals. 

 

2000-2001 Portland - finished 4th, knocked out of the first round...

 

Etc. 

 

Pippen was a great player and an exceptional #2 on a team, but to credit him with Jordan’s success? That’s crazy talk. 

It's like saying that Gretzky is only The Great One because of Jari Kurri...

[Prince Namor]

1993 NBA Finals, I said it then and I'll say it now... you swap Jordan for Barkley and the Suns dominate that series. Majerle and Johnson have as good a series as Pippen and Richard Dumas (that kid coulda been great) in limited playing time has a better offensive output. It was JORDAN who dominated that finals, despite Barkley playing, surprisingly, the best he ever played, especially within a team concept.  

Jordan's 55 points in Game 4 after that draining triple overtime loss - what a great rebound performance from a playoff loss. That's a champion. And of course that Game 6...