Bob Layton taking Co-Creator Credit for Iron Man? Gone too far in my opinion. 3 3

[Buzzetta]

Let's watch the forum tear itself into a war over this next two then...

Best Overall MLB Player of All Time:

Then

You also get to craft the best team of all time to field a game...

I will give you 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, C, 2 Pitchers but indicate who you are starting, Reliever, 3 outfielders... and just to cheat I will give you a DH. 

I'll check on this at lunch. 

 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Let's watch the forum tear itself into a war over this next two then...

Best Overall MLB Player of All Time:

Then

You also get to craft the best team of all time to field a game...

I will give you 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, C, 2 Pitchers but indicate who you are starting, Reliever, 3 outfielders... and just to cheat I will give you a DH. 

I'll check on this at lunch. 

Michael Jordan.

[Logan510]

7 hours ago, PopKulture said:

Yes, those six championships and six MVP's don't compare, along with those three college championships, not to mention the most points ever in a career and third most rebounds??  

Yep, no comparison against a guy whose most famous shots are something DeMar DeRozan can make any given night, along with twenty other players today. Wow, he made a twelve-foot jumper over Ehlo and pushed off Russell? I will, however, give him credit for making them. I saw them all, and the shots players like Curry and Durant drop routinely these days make MJ look a little outdated - something akin to what Cousy suffers from. Comparisons across eras suffer that way. And no way Jordan makes that running bank LBJ does, just sayin.   

Jordan's defensive prowess is a very strong asset, and noteworthy in these GOAT discussions, not his 6-0 record in the finals. I doubt he wins more than one without Pippen. To somehow accord Jordan the credit for them is bogus. Do you know of anything Jordan did without Pippen that was close to what Wade did nearly single-handedly against Dallas? Fact is, everyone in Chicago saw Pippen have more dominant performances without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen.

Jordan was great and in the conversation, but to ignore him being the beneficiary of certain circumstances ignores certain wisps of reality: he may or may not be the BEST of all time, but he was the most marketed, and right at a time when an ascendant NBA needed him to be great, truth be told. Therein lies perhaps his genius.  

@comix4fun

Please respond to this.

[miraclemet]

17 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

So... what's new? 

strangely enough my email has not been responded to...

[jaeldubyoo]

But...but could Jordan ink like Layton? Did he claim to be a co-creator of Iron Man?

[PopKulture]

4 hours ago, Chuck Gower said:

Pippen was a great player and an exceptional #2 on a team, but to credit him with Jordan’s success? That’s crazy talk. 

Yes, Jordan doesn't reach the same heights without Pippen, but you did show how far Pippen could take a team in what everyone justly claims was a competitive league then. Getting knocked out in the second round without the "GOAT" isn't really an indictment: the glass half-full version of that is GETTING to the second round. Were the Bills a lousy team for losing four straight superbowls or a great team for making four straight?

I'm not denying Jordan's greatness, but anyone who can't admit there is an inseparable element of hype there is just not being honest with themselves. It's always a matter of "my guy did this and it's awesome" and "your guy did the same thing but it's less impressive." 

For me, especially when you look at their whole career, Kareem's body of work gives him the edge in the GOAT conversation. 

Anyway, no one pays me to advocate for Jabbar anymore than I'd bet Jordan pays you, so there is admittedly a bit of folly to all these speculations!! 

[newshane]

[PopKulture]

3 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

Best Overall MLB Player of All Time:

Babe Ruth. 

[F For Fake]

Look, I don't have time to read this whole thread. Did Layton create Michael Jordan or not?

[PopKulture]

2 hours ago, Logan510 said:

Please respond to this.

Did the DeRozan reference short-circuit your brain??   

[comix4fun]

9 hours ago, PopKulture said:

 Fact is, everyone in Chicago saw Pippen have more dominant performances without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen.

 

Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint when an argument loses all power to be taken seriously....then there's a comment like this.

You mean like Jordan's 61 point game against the Eastern Conference Finals Pistons 3.4.87

or Jordan's 61 point game against the Hawks 4.16.87

or Jordan's 63 point game against the eventual NBA champs that year the Celtics on 4.20.86

Those are all without Pippen...

or Jordan's 64 point game against the Magic having to make up for an entirely ineffective Pippen on 1.16.93

or Jordan's 69 point game against the Cavs again (to go with 18 rebounds and 6 assists) making up for a Pippen that made 3 shots all night and was a non-factor on 3.28.90

Pippen had exactly 1 game where he scored 40 points or more without Jordan....40 against the Lakers 3.11.95

Or if you want to get into it from a numbers standpoint....

Jordan without Pippen, roughly 2 seasons....67 games scoring 30+ points, 0 games scoring less than 10, 7 of 10 playoff games 30+ points. He averaged 37.1 ppg the season before adding Pippen.

Pippen without Jordan, roughly 2 seasons...8 games scoring 30+ points, 5 games scoring less than 10, 1 of 10 playoff games 30+. Pippen averaged a pretty average 22.1 the season he took over and didn't have Jordan.

So, yeah, that's not a solid point in your argument...at all. 

[PopKulture]

2 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

Look, I don't have time to read this whole thread. Did Layton create Michael Jordan or not?

Actually, Layton invented basketball when he was, like, -60 years old.  

[PopKulture]

7 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Sometimes it's hard to pinpoint when an argument loses all power to be taken seriously....then there's a comment like this.

Haha! That's a pretty solid rebuttal, I admit.  

But the fact remains, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen, right?  

And never one without the greatest coach of all-time either, right?

Oh, yeah, I forgot about those championships with the Wizards when he came out of retirement his second or third time....

Edited January 3, 2019 by PopKulture

[Comicdey]

Cheesy Dude

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 minutes ago, PopKulture said:

Haha! That's a pretty solid rebuttal, I admit.  

But the fact remains, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen, right?  

And never one without the greatest coach of all-time either, right?

Oh, yeah, I forgot about those championships with the Wizards when he came out of retirement his second or third time....

Wayne Gretzky never won a Cup without Messier, and the Oilers won without The Great One. Doesn't change anything.

[PopKulture]

8 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Jordan without Pippen, roughly 2 seasons....67 games scoring 30+ points, 0 games scoring less than 10, 7 of 10 playoff games 30+ points. He averaged 37.1 ppg the season before adding Pippen.

Pippen without Jordan, roughly 2 seasons...8 games scoring 30+ points, 5 games scoring less than 10, 1 of 10 playoff games 30+. Pippen averaged a pretty average 22.1 the season he took over and didn't have Jordan.

So, one knock on Jordan was that he was a ball-hog early in his career, and basketball is a team game. Your second line tends in that direction. Jordan didn't win until others got involved. That part of his evolution is obvious - otherwise, Chamberlain is the GOAT for dropping fifty points a game for a season without winning the title.

Scoring isn't the only metric. Pippen was a workhorse with an all-around game, a different style player, so to compare how many 50+ or even 30+ night they had is a bit ingenuous. 

[PopKulture]

Just now, TwoPiece said:

Wayne Gretzky never won a Cup without Messier, and the Oilers won without The Great One. Doesn't change anything.

Actually, it maybe changes it an iota when Jabbar won titles with two teams with different coaches and different players around him and Jordan didn't.  

[CAHokie]

22 minutes ago, newshane said:

Awesome! Lol 

[comix4fun]

Just now, PopKulture said:

Haha! That's a pretty solid rebuttal, I admit.  

But the fact remains, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen, right?  

And never one without the greatest coach of all-time either, right?

Oh, yeah, I forgot about those championships with the Wizards when he came out of retirement his second or third time....

So, you think it was the coach and not the fact that Jordan was out of basketball for three years and pushing 40 that he didn't win with the Wizards?
Any other players you'd like to judge based on their end of career performance level as an indicator of their overall greatness? 

Kareem never won in a league with more than 17 teams total  until he moved west and Joined Magic, Coop and the gang.

His last season in LA, when they got swept by the Pistons, he barely hit 10 ppg.....he can't be the GOAT because of that, right?

LeBron never won one without carpetbagging around the league and creating super teams of players who could do something he was never able to do with just a solid supporting cast. 

If you're going to make comparisons and deduct from one player to deny him his status it's only fair to analyze the ones you elevate using the same withering stare. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, PopKulture said:

Actually, it maybe changes it an iota when Jabbar won titles with two teams with different coaches and different players around him and Jordan didn't.  

The guy with 4 less Finals MVPs is better than the guy that was MVP every time he was in the Finals..?