Disney+'s WandaVision (2020) 6 6

[HighVoltage]

10 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Yep, but what I don't know is whether or not Lorenz had read "A Sound of Thunder" himself to inspire him to cite a butterfly flapping its wings as his example of chaotic minor changes having unexpectedly large effects elsewhere in complex systems.  The Bradbury story was published in 1952, so it's possible Lorenz read the Bradbury story.  I've Googled in the past to find confirmation or denial of that possibility but never found anything.

I enjoyed those too when I saw them, but I hadn't read the Bradbury story or looked at chaos theory at the time.  Watching the Terminator films after that I had to choose to just ignore the TONS of changes to the past the Terminators were making that would inevitably have DRAMATIC changes on the future and defeat their entire purpose for going back in the first place.

I first learned of chaos theory when most people probably did--when Jeff Goldblum mentioned it in Jurassic Park in 1993.

Yes - Jurassic Park for sure!

I'm always left with the 'Life, uh... finds a way" quote.

I also like the idea Stephen King put forward in his 11.22.63 book - where time/nature/the universe itself tries to correct the time traveling by killing/eliminating the time traveler.
Like a body trying to eliminate a virus.

[@therealsilvermane]

3 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

Honestly, I'm disappointed that her 2-year relationship with Vision appears to have a more dramatic effect on her psyche than the death of her twin brother.

It's an assumption that the events of WandaVision are a direct result of Wanda's sorrow over Vision's death. I don't think it is. She seemed to be in a good place at the end of Endgame when she's having that talk with Clint overlooking the lake. Something external to Wanda has to be attributing to the craziness in Westview, NJ.

[mr_highgrade]

3 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

It's an assumption that the events of WandaVision are a direct result of Wanda's sorrow over Vision's death. I don't think it is. She seemed to be in a good place at the end of Endgame when she's having that talk with Clint overlooking the lake. Something external to Wanda has to be attributing to the craziness in Westview, NJ.

+1

[fantastic_four]

8 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

It's an assumption that the events of WandaVision are a direct result of Wanda's sorrow over Vision's death. I don't think it is. She seemed to be in a good place at the end of Endgame when she's having that talk with Clint overlooking the lake. Something external to Wanda has to be attributing to the craziness in Westview, NJ.

I can't see much question that they're drawing from the kind of mental breakdown and subsequent warping of reality that made up the House of M storyline.  But as you suggest we don't know what led to the breakdown, and it's probably not just Vision's death.

[theCapraAegagrus]

14 minutes ago, @therealsilvermane said:

It's an assumption that the events of WandaVision are a direct result of Wanda's sorrow over Vision's death. I don't think it is. She seemed to be in a good place at the end of Endgame when she's having that talk with Clint overlooking the lake. Something external to Wanda has to be attributing to the craziness in Westview, NJ.

Unless it's Galactus, the CMBR analysis doesn't seem to make sense.

[fantastic_four]

This video is WELL worth a watch to anyone trying to predict what's going on.  It's from 2016 when Civil War came out, and it looks completely scripted by Marvel Studios employees, not just something off the cuff from Olsen.  In it she summarizes comic storylines most of which we already know play out in Wandavision, and a few more that haven't--yet--but many of us are hypothesizing ultimately will occur in the series.

I find this video to be compelling evidence that the Wandavision story points were mapped out before this video was created in 2016, so they've probably had the broad strokes of this series figured out for quite a while.

 

[@therealsilvermane]

2 hours ago, Number 6 said:

The only thing that piqued my interest about the Quantum Realm explanation is the possibility of Marvel Micronauts in the MCU.  But since we know that’s not going to happen then the Quantum Realm is, in my opinion, just the MCU’s version of time-travel baffle-gab, no more interesting or better than any other “explanation” given in any other time-travel story. 
 

Yes, there have been some good time-travel science fiction stories. I like the ones you mentioned. But personally, I don’t include Endgame as one of them for a reason:

With Star Trek: City on the Edge of Forever,  Star Trek IV, and Back to the Future the audience knows going in that time-travel is going to be the plot device to get the characters to where the story is.  I think it could argued that time-travel isn’t the real story nor the solution, it just creates the circumstances for the real story, but regardless, audiences know what they’re getting into at the outset and can decide whether they want to go down the time-travel rabbit-hole. 
 

Conversely, one of the things the MCU has been lauded for is how all the different films are interconnected to make one larger story...a story that culminates in Infinity War/Endgame.  So it’s like all those films are one story narrative with the last two Avengers movies as the conclusion. 
 

So, from my perspective, the writers trotting out time-travel in Endgame is the equivalent of watching a regular 2 hour movie only to have the climactic resolution to the story be time-travel, sprung in the last 20 minutes of the film. That’s weak-sauce. 
 

At the end of the Infinity War they had my attention. I knew most, if not all, the characters who were snapped would come back, but I was genuinely interested in how they were going to do it. But when it was revealed that they were going to do it through time-travel...that this is what a dozen Marvel movies had been building to?  Sorry, but I just found it to be a let-down. 

I'm a Marvel Micronauts fan myself. We definitely won't see them in the MCU, but I think the Guardians of the Galaxy are kind of them. Star-Lord is kinda like Commander Rann, Gamora is like Princess Marionette, Rocket and Groot are kinda like Microtron and Biotron, Drax is kinda like Acroyear, and Mantis is kinda like Bug (she even looks like him). I do believe Bug is owned body and soul by Marvel since he's not really based on a toy, so I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in a Guardians of the Galaxy movie down the road. Perhaps he might belong to the same alien race as Mantis.

Yes, the movies are all connected, but they haven't existed for the sole purpose to lead us to Infinity War. As in, the plots and stories of all 20+ movies weren't just about Thanos trying to obtain the Infinity Stones. Iron Man 3 was about Extremis. Civil War was about Cap and Iron Man having a little disagreement. Black Panther was about a past sin coming to haunt present-day Wakanda. The Infinity Saga had only been hinted at in most of the movies (but did play a larger role in Avengers and Guardians Vol 1) and only didn't really become its own story until Avengers: Infinity War.

I loved how the Infinity Saga wrapped up in Endgame. I actually compare it to the season finale of Seinfeld where past characters came back at the trial of Jerry, George, Kramer, and Elaine where they finally have to pay society for being jerks for 9 seasons, and was also a clip show of some of the best episodes. Like the Seinfeld finale, Endgame was kind of meta, or self-referential, and I thought that was a cool way to wrap up the first era of the MCU.

As far as a time travel story goes, I first liken Endgame to Star Trek IV The Voyage Home as I think just like with the Enterprise crew, how our heroes got to the past wasn't as important as what happened when they got there. In fact, I thought Endgame was more meaningful. Figuring out how to time travel happened pretty fast in Endgame. But the heart of Endgame was our original Avengers, Tony, Steve, Thor, and Natalie having a soul searching moment in the past, either meeting/seeing a loved one from the past who was dead or coming face to face with who they are inside.

Edited February 2, 2021 by @therealsilvermane

[theCapraAegagrus]

[Bosco685]

2 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

This video is WELL worth a watch to anyone trying to predict what's going on.  It's from 2016 when Civil War came out, and it looks completely scripted by Marvel Studios employees, not just something off the cuff from Olsen.  In it she summarizes comic storylines most of which we already know play out in Wandavision, and a few more that haven't--yet--but many of us are hypothesizing ultimately will occur in the series.

I find this video to be compelling evidence that the Wandavision story points were mapped out before this video was created in 2016, so they've probably had the broad strokes of this series figured out for quite a while.

 

I had seen this before. And it gets referenced often due to the source material references leading to assumptions Marvel Studios very much wanted all those reference points noted because it factors into the longer plans.

It really is a nice touch to see the actors going through the comics like this.

[fantastic_four]

3 minutes ago, Bosco685 said:

It really is a nice touch to see the actors going through the comics like this.

Have you seen others?  I haven't, but I loved every minute of her summarizing comic stories.  

[davidpg]

I figure there'll be an injection of the High Evolutionary and Mastermind into this before it's wrapped up.  Wanda is responsible, though helped/nudged along by those to for a reason we don't know yet.  Maybe intertwined with how Wonder Man will be created.  Maybe the stoneless Vision will become Wonder Man by the time the show is done?

[comicginger1789]

6 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

My guess is that Monica pulled her out of her illusion by referencing Ultron killing Pietro, which in turn caused her to recall that Vision is actually dead, so we were seeing her perspective on him in that moment.  The camera angle reinforces this because when you're seeing zombie Vision the camera was placed exactly where Wanda would be in the room at the same low angle she was to him in the moment--and that intentional camera placement is particularly noticeable given that Olsen is 9 inches shorter than Bettany, plus he's standing on a raised section of their living room making him another 6 to 12 inches higher than she is.  The camera is angling up at zombie Vision in the exact same way Wanda would be looking at him.

But that also doesn't rule out that there IS a zombie Vision with a big hole in his head being puppeted around by Wanda, and in that moment it dropped the illusion and we were seeing Vision as he currently is.  I just doubt that's what's happening for two reasons--mainly that it exaggerates her power that she can animate him fully and convincingly even when she's not near him and can't see him when in the past they've explicitly demonstrated that she can't affect what she can't see unless she changes the nature of reality into a permanent, real thing, but two we SHOULD have seen him with the hole before now, not just in the one moment where Monica pulled Wanda out of her dream and reminded her of the real outside world.

That makes sense!

 

[@therealsilvermane]

6 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

My guess is that Monica pulled her out of her illusion by referencing Ultron killing Pietro, which in turn caused her to recall that Vision is actually dead, so we were seeing her perspective on him in that moment.  The camera angle reinforces this because when you're seeing zombie Vision the camera was placed exactly where Wanda would be in the room at the same low angle she was to him in the moment--and that intentional camera placement is particularly noticeable given that Olsen is 9 inches shorter than Bettany, plus he's standing on a raised section of their living room making him another 6 to 12 inches higher than she is.  The camera is angling up at zombie Vision in the exact same way Wanda would be looking at him.

That's called a POV (Point of View) shot in cinematography.

[comicginger1789]

What I don't get is what people hated soooo much about episodes 1-3? Did you hate the homage to old sitcoms? Did you hate the Easter eggs and teasers and red herrings and mystery that each episode added? If you hate these things, I think you miss were missing the point of the entire thing. I understand someone coming in and assuming it would all be done in glorious MCU fashion and to see that and be like "what is this" but to say it was terrible or bad I think is unfair. Were 3 whole episodes necessary? Maybe not...but remember Marvel wants to make money, they want to build up to something, whatever it is. And I think they have done a masterful job at that so far. The mystery is only slightly clearer with still enough questions left to answer in the remaining episodes. 

[Bosco685]

18 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Have you seen others?  I haven't, but I loved every minute of her summarizing comic stories.  

Without it being staged by the studios? And maybe not going through the whole of the character's journey.

Hugh Jackman going through the foundations of the Wolverine Limited Series story by Frank Miller

Ezra Miller actually talking though Barry Allen's background from the Silver Age to present

LaMonica Garrett has a deep knowledge of comic books and the characters he has auditioned for.

The list can go on where there are stars that really take their comic book characters seriously based on source referencing.

[fantastic_four]

1 minute ago, comicginger1789 said:

What I don't get is what people hated soooo much about episodes 1-3? Did you hate the homage to old sitcoms?

Not in theory, just in execution.  I enjoyed it for a few minutes, but the tropes I've seen a thousand times before wore thin quickly.  The episodes weren't barren of things to like--mostly all the clues about what might be happening between the sitcom stuff--but most of the episodes were too much sitcom, not enough story.

[comicginger1789]

3 hours ago, fantastic_four said:

This video is WELL worth a watch to anyone trying to predict what's going on.  It's from 2016 when Civil War came out, and it looks completely scripted by Marvel Studios employees, not just something off the cuff from Olsen.  In it she summarizes comic storylines most of which we already know play out in Wandavision, and a few more that haven't--yet--but many of us are hypothesizing ultimately will occur in the series.

I find this video to be compelling evidence that the Wandavision story points were mapped out before this video was created in 2016, so they've probably had the broad strokes of this series figured out for quite a while.

 

Very cool!

What if in Wandavision, instead of like the House of M arc where she set reality back and eliminated mutants, what if she alters reality on a grand scale and creates a reality where they exist? Maybe that is too huge of a concept but ya never know. 

[comicginger1789]

2 minutes ago, fantastic_four said:

Not in theory, just in execution.  I enjoyed it for a few minutes, but the tropes I've seen a thousand times before wore thin quickly.  The episodes weren't barren of things to like--mostly all the clues about what might be happening between the sitcom stuff--but most of the episodes were too much sitcom, not enough story.

But I think that was the point. The creators wanted to do that homage. I mean, maybe we care little for seeing a whole episode of black and white television but that was their artistic choice. And I liked it. I think this story would be EXTREMELY cliche and boring if we just had them in modern times, living in a "bubble" town apart from the outside world. It needed that weird sitcomy aspect to really get me invested, personally. And it put a smile on my face in addition to wanting to search out every clue and reference possible that was woven in, whether it means something or not. 

As someone who casually watched MCU movies, or just tuned into this, well I can see why they would have zero interest of course.  

[chezmtghut]

8 hours ago, Angel of Death said:

No. His model suggests that he'd been leisurely working on the concept, likely ever since he returned to Earth. I think it's safe to assume that it took him 5 years.

Well, everything is explained in the Vedic scriptures but since most people would identify it as myth, you need to translate it into terms others are familiar with. If I said that there are unlimited material universes generated from the pores of Mahā Vishnu, who then expands Himself within each universe as Garbhodakaśāyī Vishnu and then again as Ksirodakaśāyī Vishnu (the Paramātmā, Super soul or Holy Spirit within every atom) & that all creation is just God's consciousness operating at different forces of will in reaction to our own minute independent consciousness, would it compute? The scriptures say God is given names according to His qualities, so He has unlimited names but His primary names is Krishna, which is Sanskrit for the all attractive. We generally call this attractive force magnetism but goes by different names like electricity or gravity depending on it's strength & our conceptions. Doctor Strange shares some info about Mudra's, which are hand positions that can be compared to satellite antennas to align the flow of different Chakra's, which relate to the force of our blood & air flow (known as Vata, Pitta & Kapha in Ayurveda).

[theCapraAegagrus]

10 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

What I don't get is what people hated soooo much about episodes 1-3? Did you hate the homage to old sitcoms? Did you hate the Easter eggs and teasers and red herrings and mystery that each episode added? If you hate these things, I think you miss were missing the point of the entire thing. I understand someone coming in and assuming it would all be done in glorious MCU fashion and to see that and be like "what is this" but to say it was terrible or bad I think is unfair. Were 3 whole episodes necessary? Maybe not...but remember Marvel wants to make money, they want to build up to something, whatever it is. And I think they have done a masterful job at that so far. The mystery is only slightly clearer with still enough questions left to answer in the remaining episodes. 

It's a limited series and basically nothing happened. I don't think that people much "hate" it so much as think it's super boring. The homages were done well, but when you have 29 minutes of homages and 1 minute of mystery, then the story overall isn't compelling.