Is it a Pedigree? Obscure markings? Ask the "Experts" 5 5

[Readcomix]

On 11/6/2023 at 2:40 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Yeah, it's highly unlikely there's any connection with a lower grade '49 Jungle Comics. The post-war date, the condition, the lack of any similarity to either the stamps on the back or penciled notation on the front of other SF/Reilly pedigree books pretty much precludes any connection with the books which surfaced in the early 70's.  Just taken as a one-off penciled name, "Reilly" probably isn't that uncommon.

Hi Cat, I mostly agree and did not post it thinking "Is this an SF?" I posted it thinking its interesting, distinctly marked, and might have been part of a collection other similarly marked books. If it helps identify another grouping of original owner books that got dispersed, that's a good thing. Especially if anyone knows the provenance of them.

That said, the sigs (this one and Reilly stamp) are similar enough that the idea of same person a few years later buying a book isn't crazy, just intriguing. That wouldn't in my eyes make it part of the pedigree, just an interesting footnote.

It's easy to assume every original owner of these great GA collections that surface (not just peds) was as dedicated and loving of their books as the average GA boardie, but its not always the case. One thing I've taken from buying collections over the years is there have been many folks who collected with moderate interest for a few years, then just put their books aside and left them to sit. For a casual collector of say, four years, to four or five years later buy a new book or two off the stands for fun/nostalgia for their own period of intense interest is not an odd notion. Not saying that is the case here, but that sort of casual collector probably outnumbered boardies over the years and have been aa major source of dealer back stock over the decades.

[Professor K]

On 11/6/2023 at 9:39 AM, Readcomix said:

Hi Cat, I mostly agree and did not post it thinking "Is this an SF?" I posted it thinking its interesting, distinctly marked, and might have been part of a collection other similarly marked books.

Yeah that was me. I'm the one who went there faster than you can say Tom Reilly. 

[Comics-n-ERB]

Here's some fun ones for you all.

I bought a large collection last year; part original owner, part he bought second hand.  He started collecting in the late 1950's so from there up all original, before then he bought from various sources.  The Collection originated from Ohio.

These first two books the markings looked very familiar to me.  I asked a couple friends and they agreed; they looked like Ohio Copies.  I had them graded, CGC agreed.

 

 

[Comics-n-ERB]

Other Golden age books from the collection had very distinctive markings, but me nor others could identify them to any Pedigree's.  Still, they are fun to look at.

 

[Comics-n-ERB]

This last batch were all Wild Boys obviously from the same place.  The letter P is stamped on them.

I can't get the pic's to load upright.  Sorry.

[Readcomix]

On 11/6/2023 at 1:55 PM, Professor K said:

Yeah that was me. I'm the one who went there faster than you can say Tom Reilly. 

And I can see why you did, too. Who really knows?

[Robot Man]

Are Lloyd Jacquette file copies considered a pedigree? Looks like some bored office worker got “creative” on #3…

#2 is a cool one. Reminds me of CDNP #24. 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 11/15/2023 at 7:16 PM, Robot Man said:

Are Lloyd Jacquette file copies considered a pedigree? Looks like some bored office worker got “creative” on #3…

#2 is a cool one. Reminds me of CDNP #24. 

Lloyd Jacquette copies haven't to my knowledge been given an official pedigree status, but they're important in publishing history as recognized FILE copies.

In the case of my Jacquette dated & stamped copy it's classified as "From the estate of..."

Spoiler

Edited November 16, 2023 by Cat-Man_America
Ale added!

[bounty_coder]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:18 AM, Comics-n-ERB said:

Here's some fun ones for you all.

I bought a large collection last year; part original owner, part he bought second hand.  He started collecting in the late 1950's so from there up all original, before then he bought from various sources.  The Collection originated from Ohio.

These first two books the markings looked very familiar to me.  I asked a couple friends and they agreed; they looked like Ohio Copies.  I had them graded, CGC agreed.

 

 

 

 

@Comics-n-ERB these certainly are similar to the Ohio Pedigree markings that CGC has shared.  Given you found these Books in Ohio I would say they probably are...

 

 

[MBFan]

On 11/6/2023 at 1:18 PM, Comics-n-ERB said:

Here's some fun ones for you all.

I bought a large collection last year; part original owner, part he bought second hand.  He started collecting in the late 1950's so from there up all original, before then he bought from various sources.  The Collection originated from Ohio.

These first two books the markings looked very familiar to me.  I asked a couple friends and they agreed; they looked like Ohio Copies.  I had them graded, CGC agreed.

 

 

The markings on these books look kind of like those on your Ohio copies.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/22/2024 at 12:55 PM, bounty_coder said:

 

 

@Comics-n-ERB these certainly are similar to the Ohio Pedigree markings that CGC has shared.  Given you found these Books in Ohio I would say they probably are...

Maybe, but not necessarily. It could just be that they had similar markings because they came from the same distributor.

[adamstrange]

On 2/25/2024 at 2:50 AM, MBFan said:

The markings on these books look kind of like those on your Ohio copies.

Not close enough to the real Ohio distributor marks

[sfcityduck]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:18 AM, Comics-n-ERB said:

Here's some fun ones for you all.

I bought a large collection last year; part original owner, part he bought second hand.  He started collecting in the late 1950's so from there up all original, before then he bought from various sources.  The Collection originated from Ohio.

These first two books the markings looked very familiar to me.  I asked a couple friends and they agreed; they looked like Ohio Copies.  I had them graded, CGC agreed.

 

 

 

This is what I hate about CGC. The Ohio Pedigree refers to books bought by a specific OO who sold the books in 1994. The only identifying marking is a distributor mark (or maybe store mark) for books sold in the Akron area. Obviously, EVERY BOOK SOLD BY THAT DISTRIBUTOR (or store) WOULD HAVE THE SAME MARKS!  But only the books sold by the OO to the dealer in 1994 who brought the pedigree to market would be part of the pedigree. 

So if you have a different OO who was buying books in the Akron area in the 1950s and sold them prior to or after the time the Ohio pedigree surfaced in 1994, it is quite likely those OO books would have the same Akron distributor (or store) marks. IN FACT, the Promise Collection includes books with the Akron distributor (or store) "c code" marks - not surprising since the OO was near that area. That doesn't make the Promise books with "c codes" or any other Akron area books part of the "Ohio Pedigree." 

For CGC to presume to "certify" that a "c code" book is an Ohio without any additional information justifying certainty of that designation is, frankly, stupidly dishonest. 

If treated the same as some treat the Mile High and SF pedigrees, Ohio would now also be known the by the OO's name (after all, the dealer bought them directly from the OO and presumably knew his name). If so, and if folks were more wary about identifying a pedigree solely by a widely used distributor mark, then maybe we would not have this problem. But, as it is, pedigrees will be watered down quickly if just sharing a distributor mark is good enough.

 

Edited February 27 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/25/2024 at 11:11 AM, adamstrange said:

Not close enough to the real Ohio distributor marks

Does this look close enough? It sure does to me:

 

It's a Promise. What about this?:

Also, a Promise. This?

Promise.

On the other hand, this Ohio doesn't look close enough (but surely more than one person must have been writing those codes):

 

You cannot identify an Ohio based on the code.  End of story. CGC might as well say all "c code" books are escapees from the Promise Collection (which also had a lot of K code books, perhaps because it was closer to Cleveland than Akron).

 

 

 

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/26/2024 at 12:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

This is what I hate about CGC. The Ohio Pedigree refers to books bought by a specific OO who sold the books in 1994. The only identifying marking is a distributor mark (or maybe store mark) for books sold in the Akron area. Obviously, EVERY BOOK SOLD BY THAT DISTRIBUTOR (or store) WOULD HAVE THE SAME MARKS!  But only the books sold by the OO to the dealer in 1994 who brought the pedigree to market would be part of the pedigree. 

So if you have a different OO who was buying books in the Akron area in the 1950s and sold them prior to or after the time the Ohio pedigree surfaced in 1994, it is quite likely those OO books would have the same Akron distributor (or store) marks. IN FACT, the Promise Collection includes books with the Akron distributor (or store) "c code" marks - not surprising since the OO was near that area. That doesn't make the Promise books with "c codes" or any other Akron area books part of the "Ohio Pedigree." 

For CGC to presume to "certify" that a "c code" book is an Ohio without any additional information justifying certainty of that designation is, frankly, stupidly dishonest. 

If treated the same as some treat the Mile High and SF pedigrees, Ohio would now also be known the by the OO's name (after all, the dealer bought them directly from the OO and presumably knew his name). If so, and if folks were more wary about identifying a pedigree solely by a widely used distributor mark, then maybe we would not have this problem. But, as it is, pedigrees will be watered down quickly if just sharing a distributor mark is good enough.

 

If pedigree markings were enough, then Aurora copies would be Mile High copies.

[jimbo_7071]

On 2/26/2024 at 4:24 PM, sfcityduck said:

On the other hand, this Ohio doesn't look close enough (but surely more than one person must have been writing those codes):

 

You cannot identify an Ohio based on the code.  End of story.

Late 40s Ohio books usually have nicer pages than this one does. I don't think that's a genuine Ohio copy.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:21 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

Late 40s Ohio books usually have nicer pages than this one does. I don't think that's a genuine Ohio copy.

Check out pages on this “c code” book being offered raw as having “Ohio pedigree markings”.  
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/325711068921?itmmeta=01HQTRRTXSWM1T75H75K0WWJCB&hash=item4bd5e47ef9:g:3fIAAOSw89lkm6AA&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4JFiz3zF3KRYL4dLbVlxzoJgJKfttql2veMifr9VL%2FpXRwTe8Fo9YMMceyJqsKSfqkUZXCKxB5NZriqKn60p7CbInuRlDTYPvzjGtlgtQoC9W2MwwU7ftYn0gPevkr7zRvaaF7sf2Ea5j72YBkx0NlAN8zHlRoAqLbmIkuGQMCbAHDKaHEqBRHMDcgc2EE1aDFJuHGXg29uoBWq8%2BqOiNC6v6fFgdOohH43zkr9cQ3Y3qAhWV9E3GXW4YQ75bgzjNZofZJYOwwcgeu4C8RbeZOiq7UIJZl0FAZfulwP4DCH0|tkp%3ABk9SR_6u49i-Yw

 

Edited February 29 by sfcityduck

[Jcomer82]

Picked this book up recently and was wondering if these markings or stamp are indicative of any pedigree? It’s not the best condition but I was curious either way. Thanks in advance for anyone’s insight.

[adamstrange]

No.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:30 PM, Jcomer82 said:

Picked this book up recently and was wondering if these markings or stamp are indicative of any pedigree? It’s not the best condition but I was curious either way. Thanks in advance for anyone’s insight.

Lots of comics have date stamps on the cover. Lots of comics have letters on the cover. Lots of comics have writing inside. None of the examples in your pics appear sufficient to confirm the book as a pedigree. To prove a pedigree, it should take either a chain of ownership (or provenance) or a mark which is completely distinct to the pedigree - e.g., "Okajima" on the cover, the Cosmic Aeroplane check marks throughout a book corresponding to certain images, names, unique stamps, etc. 

A lot of non-pedigree books have similar distributor marks (e.g. the "c" distributor mark and date penciled on to covers in Ohio (Promise and Ohio peds) and Colorado (Aurora and Mile High) can't be used as a ped identifier because they were widely used and cannot be traced to any ped without provenance).