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[Mr. Lady Luck]

I thought trimming was the epitome of restoration...

[bronze johnny]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:23 AM, Mr. Lady Luck said:

I thought trimming was the epitome of restoration...

it’s an error. 

[Chicago Boy]

On 8/19/2021 at 8:23 AM, Mr. Lady Luck said:

I thought trimming was the epitome of restoration...

Trimming does not make things like they were--trimming is taking away from what it once was--NOT restoration by definition  CBCS does not count trimming as restoration.  I agree with them 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Chicago Boy

[Spyder!]

On 8/19/2021 at 6:23 AM, Chicago Boy said:

Trimming is NOT restoration..  CGC finally got it right for once (although by mistake I'm sure) 

 

On 8/19/2021 at 8:23 AM, Mr. Lady Luck said:

I thought trimming was the epitome of restoration...

Trimming is absolutely restoration.  The book once had a nice, clean edge.  Over time, that condition of the edge worsens, and trimming is an attempt to restore it to a nice clean edge again.  Pretty simple.

[Chicago Boy]

On 8/19/2021 at 10:30 AM, Spyder! said:

 

Trimming is absolutely restoration.  The book once had a nice, clean edge.  Over time, that condition of the edge worsens, and trimming is an attempt to restore it to a nice clean edge again.  Pretty simple.

Trimming is destruction (not restoration)   The book may have a "nice clean edge" but it physically is no longer the same size as the book when it was manufactured, it's missing some of it's color (perhaps the slightest of art) , and the art /printed word(s) is/are  no longer proportionate to an originally manufactured cover   Therefore the book was not restored to appear to be in it's original form 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Chicago Boy

[Spyder!]

On 8/19/2021 at 10:35 AM, Chicago Boy said:

Trimming is destruction (not restoration)   The book may have a "nice clean edge" but it physically is no longer the same size as the book when it was manufactured, it's missing some of it's color (perhaps more) , and the art is no longer proportionate.  Therefore the book was not restored to appear to be in it's original form 

Sounds like a distinction without a difference.  When I want to restore my wood furniture, one step is sanding.  This removes a small amount of the wood, so it's no longer the exact same physical size anymore.  Does that mean this is really "destruction" and not restoration?  I don't think so.  The argument that reducing the physical size of something cannot classify as restoration just doesn't fly.

[Chicago Boy]

On 8/19/2021 at 10:48 AM, Spyder! said:

Sounds like a distinction without a difference.  When I want to restore my wood furniture, one step is sanding.  This removes a small amount of the wood, so it's no longer the exact same physical size anymore.  Does that mean this is really "destruction" and not restoration?  I don't think so.  The argument that reducing the physical size of something cannot classify as restoration just doesn't fly.

Comic collecting is it's own animal when it comes to restoration and conservation.  I am on board with CBCS on this one--trimming is not restoration.  I am not the only boardie that feels this way but perhaps we are in the minority. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Chicago Boy

[Timely]

When you restore an item, you attempt to put it back to it's original condition or look. Trimming does neither. Trimming is NOT restoration.

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:56 AM, Timely said:

When you restore an item, you attempt to put it back to it's original condition or look. Trimming does neither. Trimming is NOT restoration.

True, but the book is incomplete. The grade on a trimmed book should be no higher than 1.0, in my humble opinion.

[Chicago Boy]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:11 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

True, but the book is incomplete. The grade on a trimmed book should be no higher than 1.0, in my humble opinion.

I certainly think it needs to affect the grade and be noted on the BLUE  label.  Incomplete is an interesting way to look at it and one I have never thought of.......

Edited August 19, 2021 by Chicago Boy

[Mr. Lady Luck]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:17 AM, Chicago Boy said:

Trimming does not make things like they were--trimming is taking away from what it once was--NOT restoration by definition  CBCS does not count trimming as restoration.  I agree with them 

Well, now I know why I use CGC and not CBCS.

[Timely]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:11 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

True, but the book is incomplete. The grade on a trimmed book should be no higher than 1.0, in my humble opinion.

Technically, any comic missing any piece is incomplete!

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/19/2021 at 1:10 PM, Timely said:

Technically, any comic missing any piece is incomplete!

I don't buy incomplete books, so I'm not that familiar with how they're graded. Can an incomplete book get a numerical grade, or would it automatically receive an "NG?"

[Chicago Boy]

On 8/19/2021 at 12:22 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I don't buy incomplete books, so I'm not that familiar with how they're graded. Can an incomplete book get a numerical grade, or would it automatically receive an "NG?"

depending on how much is missing. incomplete can get a 0.5 and usually do unless it's a qualified label  because the owner chooses for one based on how nice a presenting copy it is.  I had a Cap 1 once missing 2 wraps and it received a Blue  0.5 from CGC.  

Edited August 19, 2021 by Chicago Boy

[MasterChief]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:56 AM, Timely said:

When you restore an item, you attempt to put it back to it's original condition or look. Trimming does neither. Trimming is NOT restoration.

West, have a majority of the 150 odd Overstreet Advisors influenced a change in the definition and classification of trimming?

Reason I ask is that my current copy of the Overstreet Guide (2019-2020) continues to classify trimming as restoration:

Restoration – Any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book using additive procedures. These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recoloring, adding missing paper, trimming, re-glossing, reinforcement, glue, etc...

Trimmed – (1) A bindery process which separates top, right, and bottom of pages and cuts comic books to the proper size; (2) A repair process in which defects along the edges of a comic book are removed with the use of scissors, razor blades, and/or paper cutters. Comics books which have been repaired in this fashion are considered defective.

[Timely]

On 8/19/2021 at 12:46 PM, MasterChief said:

West, have a majority of the 150 odd Overstreet Advisors influenced a change in the definition and classification of trimming?

Reason I ask is that my current copy of the Overstreet Guide (2019-2020) continues to classify trimming as restoration:

Restoration – Any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book using additive procedures. These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recoloring, adding missing paper, trimming, re-glossing, reinforcement, glue, etc...

Trimmed – (1) A bindery process which separates top, right, and bottom of pages and cuts comic books to the proper size; (2) A repair process in which defects along the edges of a comic book are removed with the use of scissors, razor blades, and/or paper cutters. Comics books which have been repaired in this fashion are considered defective.

I can't say as to who Overstreet took their definitions from. I can tell you trimming, on it's own, is not part of any restoration process.

[Pantodude]

On 8/19/2021 at 2:03 PM, Timely said:

I can't say as to who Overstreet took their definitions from. I can tell you trimming, on it's own, is not part of any restoration process.

As a practical matter, but also as generally understood, the purpose of restoration is to improve the appearance of the book, including (but not necessarily) in a non-conserving way.  Removing actual book paper from the edges just because it is rough does not conserve, so it's restoration, especially when done "on it's own."  While we can't be too technical about these things, trimming is certainly not a repair.  It's a cosmetic improvement that is misleading, because the paper "worked on" is actually removed and not improved.  So if anything, trimming is removal, not repair, for the purpose of making the book look "better."   But I see your point, because I agree that trimming does not "restore" the affected portion of thepage; it removes it.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Pantodude

[bluechip]

On 8/19/2021 at 10:46 AM, MasterChief said:

West, have a majority of the 150 odd Overstreet Advisors influenced a change in the definition and classification of trimming?

Reason I ask is that my current copy of the Overstreet Guide (2019-2020) continues to classify trimming as restoration:

Restoration – Any attempt, whether professional or amateur, to enhance the appearance of an aging or damaged comic book using additive procedures. These procedures may include any or all of the following techniques: recoloring, adding missing paper, trimming, re-glossing, reinforcement, glue, etc...

Trimmed – (1) A bindery process which separates top, right, and bottom of pages and cuts comic books to the proper size; (2) A repair process in which defects along the edges of a comic book are removed with the use of scissors, razor blades, and/or paper cutters. Comics books which have been repaired in this fashion are considered defective.

The first paragraph misuses the word "restoration" but at least it follows a sort of logic that people can follow as it's applied in home restoration.  The second takes it a step further and defines removal as "repair" which is not how anybody defines repair anywhere else except where the portion removed is than also replaced with something else.  But even we accept the contrary-to-dictionary definitions applied in both paragraphs, it still wouldn't support the idea that trimming is restoration when it hasn't been done to remove defects or create the appearance of unworn edges.  Doing that makes sense only if restoration is further redefined to include "anything that shouldn't have been done to a book".  Logic and proper word usage is not the enemy, but some fear them, nonetheless.

 

 

 

[Chicago Boy]

If I took Overstreets word for anything I could get a hell of a lot of deals on many mega keys 

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/19/2021 at 1:37 PM, Chicago Boy said:

depending on how much is missing. incomplete can get a 0.5 and usually do unless it's a qualified label  because the owner chooses for one based on how nice a presenting copy it is.  I had a Cap 1 once missing 2 wraps and it received a Blue  0.5 from CGC.  

Holy Toledo, Chicago Boy! I am shocked that they would assign a grade to a comic book that was missing two wraps. Now, if a book had a clipped coupon or something, OK. But two wraps????