Super Strict Grading 1 1

[LOC Collectibles]

14 hours ago, Lamborghinikid said:

I have already busted it out of the slab but here is the book. It graded an 8.0 white pages two different times. Then when i sent it in a few months ago it came back 7.0 off white to white pages. I’m sending it back in again and trying for that 8.5. Even if it doesn’t get that elusive 8.5, I feel this book is better than a 7.0. 

My 8.0 looks a full grade lower than this book. 

[SecretComicRoom]

On 11/6/2020 at 11:24 AM, jeffreyk said:

I buy lots of silver-age CGC books and was just using this one as an example as I just received it.   I really don't see much of a difference from the books I have purchased whether they are in new cases and recently graded, or new cases graded a few years ago, or even against the 1st and 2nd generation holders.  Most books are graded spot on to me, a few may be under-graded and a few over-graded but always within a half a point either way.  

Also, several of the books in the pictures above are not from CGC.  

You can buy as many as you want and compare grades but that is not exactly what is being talked about here. If you buy a book grading 7.0 and a professional is taking the time to crack it out because they see press-able defects, which in all other cases have net 1-4 grade bumps, and it comes back lower grade with lower page quality.... time and time again over the course of 5 months.... there is something wrong. 

We aren't talking about recent up and coming instagram pressers with a cheap t shirt press here either. We are talking about guys who literally do this as their main profession... every day... for 5-10 years. Come on now

and furthermore all of those books are in CGC cases, being recently graded by CGC. 

[jeffreyk]

I understand what you are saying.  I was just saying that I haven't seen much difference in grading among the many slabs that I own and find cgc to be pretty consistent over the years and different cases.

I would also be upset if I submitted a book, got it pressed, and it came back a lower grade.

 

[The Lions Den]

On 11/5/2020 at 1:14 PM, joeypost said:

I haven't had any go down in grade, but I have had books stay the same grade that saw marked improvement. I see strict grading mainly in the ultra high grade moderns. Books that were slam dunk 9.8's years ago are coming back 9.4...and its not consistent. I see it in one submission, then the next gets graded the way they should...then I get another batch that gets hammered. Must be one, possibly two graders that are extra hard on books that you get in the rotation. 

Even though CGC is very good at what they do, there can be fluctuations now and then. Sometimes certain flaws will be viewed differently over time, so what once was acceptable as a 9.8 because of a certain flaw becomes a 9.6 due to the graders seeing more copies of that book. I've found it's actually easier to grade books when the pressures of grading are diminished---just one of the reasons I felt the need to move away from grading hundreds of books every day...

 

[joeypost]

46 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

Even though CGC is very good at what they do, there can be fluctuations now and then. Sometimes certain flaws will be viewed differently over time, so what once was acceptable as a 9.8 because of a certain flaw becomes a 9.6 due to the graders seeing more copies of that book. I've found it's actually easier to grade books when the pressures of grading are diminished---just one of the reasons I felt the need to move away from grading hundreds of books every day...

 

That would add to the fatigue level, which could affect how certain books are viewed. 

I remember one dealer, many years ago telling me he adds a few stinkers into his pre-screens so the grader isn't looking at "perfect" books all day, which he thought might work in his favor. 

[1950's war comics]

20 minutes ago, joeypost said:

I remember one dealer, many years ago telling me he adds a few stinkers into his pre-screens so the grader isn't looking at "perfect" books all day, which he thought might work in his favor. 

smart strategy !!

[jimjum12]

6 hours ago, buttock said:

Limited sample size, maybe 40-50 certified books that I've bought over the past year, all GA-SA.  That being said, I haven't seen any grades that I really disagree with.  IMO CGC is currently accurate, which is something I haven't been able to say in years.  The worst time was the early 2010s when there was a big turnover and no experience with vintage books, I don't know if all of those wouldn't drop 2 grades as a whole if recertified.  But what I've gotten lately, I would say I feel like most are accurate, a few are a little loose and a few are a little tight, but overall within acceptable variation of standards.  Great time to be a collector buying.  

Good post, Dan.

CGC does understand that the buyer must be happy for this whole thing to work. If they can buy a raw 8.0 at the LCS for half the price of a slabbed one, and the one from the LCS looks nicer  ... do the math. The business model won't remain viable for long. In the early days of slabbing it was easy for CGC, as grading in the wild had become atrocious. People have stepped up their game to compete, so the disparities are much more incremental today. But when volume submitters are complaining, they probably should do an internal QC audit, at minimum. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[ftlepore]

Great points, but how do we get them to notice is what I'm wondering. And how would we even know when a change took place?

[jimjum12]

7 minutes ago, ftlepore said:

Great points, but how do we get them to notice is what I'm wondering. And how would we even know when a change took place?

Submissions will drop past a certain threshold and eyebrows will rise. This happens periodically in this industry were CGC is basically trying to please both the Hatfield's AND the McCoy's . If the buyer is happy, the submitter is grumbling, if the Submitter is happy, the buyer is grumpy. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[The Lions Den]

10 hours ago, joeypost said:

That would add to the fatigue level, which could affect how certain books are viewed. 

I remember one dealer, many years ago telling me he adds a few stinkers into his pre-screens so the grader isn't looking at "perfect" books all day, which he thought might work in his favor. 

Yeah, those books would certainly stand out in the crowd...

[ftlepore]

So here's another interesting comparison. The 1st book is ASM #40. I sent this in to get CPR'd, and it didn't pass prescreen, so it was sent back. The 2nd book is the Avengers #8 that was just CPR'd and regraded at a lower grade (7.5 down to 7.0, and OW/W pages down to C/OW pages); you can see this one in my earlier photos.

The ASM looks significantly worse than the Avengers copy, in terms of blemishes, issues, and coloration. The back is actually pretty "sooty" for lack of a better term. Yet, it's a grade higher and has a better page quality. In addition, I checked the details, and it was just recently graded on 10/25/2019, or barely a year ago, the same as a good number of the other books I submitted. These aren't books that were graded back in 2011 and had years to sit around and discolor. Additionally, it seems to me that the Avengers pages look significantly crisper and definitely not cream.

My biggest issue is that I spent over $550 to get these nine books graded and shipped, only to have them go down in grade, and I'm almost at a point where I feel like this was a CGC error and I want to reach out to them about it. I just doubt it would do anything. I know everyone is saying to wait and resubmit when they're back to normal, but that's still another $550 process.

Edited November 8, 2020 by ftlepore

[joeypost]

2 hours ago, ftlepore said:

So here's another interesting comparison. The 1st book is ASM #40. I sent this in to get CPR'd, and it didn't pass prescreen, so it was sent back. The 2nd book is the Avengers #8 that was just CPR'd and regraded at a lower grade (7.5 down to 7.0, and OW/W pages down to C/OW pages); you can see this one in my earlier photos.

The ASM looks significantly worse than the Avengers copy, in terms of blemishes, issues, and coloration. The back is actually pretty "sooty" for lack of a better term. Yet, it's a grade higher and has a better page quality. In addition, I checked the details, and it was just recently graded on 10/25/2019, or barely a year ago, the same as a good number of the other books I submitted. These aren't books that were graded back in 2011 and had years to sit around and discolor. Additionally, it seems to me that the Avengers pages look significantly crisper and definitely not cream.

My biggest issue is that I spent over $550 to get these nine books graded and shipped, only to have them go down in grade, and I'm almost at a point where I feel like this was a CGC error and I want to reach out to them about it. I just doubt it would do anything. I know everyone is saying to wait and resubmit when they're back to normal, but that's still another $550 process.

In this case, the book may look structurally better, but is downgraded due to tanning. I have seen books that look 9.4 or better, that have come back in the 8.0 range due to cover tanning. 

[shadroch]

If previously slabbed books are now being graded with worse page quality than when they were first graded, is it that the graders are now harsher or could it be the slabs themselves caused the books quality to suffer? Maybe the newfangled Newton Ring technology isn't as benign as some think it is. 

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, shadroch said:

If previously slabbed books are now being graded with worse page quality than when they were first graded, is it that the graders are now harsher or could it be the slabs themselves caused the books quality to suffer? Maybe the newfangled Newton Ring technology isn't as benign as some think it is. 

You make an interesting point. If I may, I'd like to offer a couple of other possibilities: 1) The books could have originally been graded at a different location such as an on-site grading venue. The lighting at onsite grading locations can be quite different than in the CGC grading room.  2) Page quality can be tricky to determine even in good light. Believe it or not, some books will actually have different levels of page quality from one page to another. I've seen books that were Cream to OW on the first page but OW/W on the last page. This would be even more likely given the age of the books; different weather and storage conditions over the years can cause many anomalies.

As far as the grade goes, most graders are occasionally a half grade or more away from each other. The things that determine the difference can be more a matter of perception than anything else. So to see a grade drop half a point doesn't surprise me much, even if a book was pressed. However, I would ask for the grading notes, which may reveal a hidden clue as to why the grade changed...

[shadroch]

26 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

You make an interesting point. If I may, I'd like to offer a couple of other possibilities: 1) The books could have originally been graded at a different location such as an on-site grading venue. The lighting at onsite grading locations can be quite different than in the CGC grading room.  2) Page quality can be tricky to determine even in good light. Believe it or not, some books will actually have different levels of page quality from one page to another. I've seen books that were Cream to OW on the first page but OW/W on the last page. This would be even more likely given the age of the books; different weather and storage conditions over the years can cause many anomalies.

As far as the grade goes, most graders are occasionally a half grade or more away from each other. The things that determine the difference can be more a matter of perception than anything else. So to see a grade drop half a point doesn't surprise me much, even if a book was pressed. However, I would ask for the grading notes, which may reveal a hidden clue as to why the grade changed...

Your defense just brings up more questions.  I would expect a grading company to insure that lighting in any location they were using to be at a certain level. 

[Wilson3d]

While I think this pretty much stinks, I also feel relieved to read this and see it is not just me. I have a small pressing company and bought my first press in 2010. I have stuck with it and been consistent over this time and receive many submissions from all over country. Over the last four years I had only had one one batch that dropped grade and the client sent those in after the press and clean himself. I have always assumed he sat them on something and dented them after my work because it was such a fluke. I often tell people to hold the book as it is not a good candidate for a bump but still crack out customers books weekly. Pretty much after the CGC McFarlane signing, I received a grade drop after a press and clean...then another...then all 3 in a submission. I was like - I know I am not slipping on my quality control - what is happening here? So while this stinks, I am glad to see I am not just going crazy. 

[ftlepore]

I bit the bullet and wrote CGC a letter with my thoughts and complaints. At the end of the day, I'm still paying over $500 for a service that I don't feel the quality control was adequate on. I gave a good amount of examples and comparisons, so we'll see what they say.

[SecretComicRoom]

5 hours ago, The Lions Den said:

You make an interesting point. If I may, I'd like to offer a couple of other possibilities: 1) The books could have originally been graded at a different location such as an on-site grading venue. The lighting at onsite grading locations can be quite different than in the CGC grading room.  2) Page quality can be tricky to determine even in good light. Believe it or not, some books will actually have different levels of page quality from one page to another. I've seen books that were Cream to OW on the first page but OW/W on the last page. This would be even more likely given the age of the books; different weather and storage conditions over the years can cause many anomalies.

As far as the grade goes, most graders are occasionally a half grade or more away from each other. The things that determine the difference can be more a matter of perception than anything else. So to see a grade drop half a point doesn't surprise me much, even if a book was pressed. However, I would ask for the grading notes, which may reveal a hidden clue as to why the grade changed...

If it was just this one case and not an extremely competent presser I would agree with all your points. I am hearing of many situations this is happening. Other well known, quality pressers as well. 

I do not really agree with "even if a book was pressed"  unless we are talking about someone who does not really know what they are doing and or it was a singular issue. This is not a singular issue. 

[The Lions Den]

8 hours ago, shadroch said:

Your defense just brings up more questions.  I would expect a grading company to insure that lighting in any location they were using to be at a certain level. 

You may be surprised at how different it can be depending upon the location and type of light. It's one of the things that makes grading books a lot more difficult than most people think...

[The Lions Den]

3 hours ago, SecretComicRoom said:

If it was just this one case and not an extremely competent presser I would agree with all your points. I am hearing of many situations this is happening. Other well known, quality pressers as well. 

I do not really agree with "even if a book was pressed"  unless we are talking about someone who does not really know what they are doing and or it was a singular issue. This is not a singular issue. 

I'm sorry for everyone that has had a bad experience, but that's one of the reasons I don't have any book pressed unless it's an excellent candidate and it can be substantially improved with a pressing. Personally, I always consider it to be a roll of the dice...

Edited November 9, 2020 by The Lions Den