BeatleBlueCat DEFRAUDING BUYERS with Massive SHILL BIDDING and Same old "Buy CGC graded 7.5, crack and sell as raw "NM" scam 10 10

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, shadroch said:

Because he is way over the top. Claiming the seller is about to be arrested is stupid and counter-productive. Dupchek has been selling restored books on ebay for years, but we are supposed to believe a guy cracking CGC books and selling them at higher grades is going to be prosecuted. 

 

You know what's 699 miles over the top?

699 shill bids in one month. X 12 + 699 X 12 + 699X 12 ... etc   over the past years he's been selling on ebay. 

[D2]

What I find disappointing is people defending activity that degrades the hobby and the industry.

 

There is nothing wrong with pointing out malpractice.

 

Is it buyer beware? Do your own research before buying? Yes. 
 

So if people don’t point out fraudulent or even sketchy activity, what’s the point of doing your research anyway?

 

 

 

[James J Johnson]

39 minutes ago, shadroch said:

 

 

Calling out bad actors is a good thing. Where it goes bad is suggesting people who crack CGC books and offer them at higher grades are committing a crime, or that people who shill their auctions are going to be hauled out of their beds and arrested. Over the top rhetoric helps nothing. 

Eight time: 

Shilling is the crime. Not scumbaggery. 

Yes, shill bidding is an officially illegal practice. ... Yet, shill bidding can go to the federal level, so then: Additionally, you can be charged under 18 U.S. Code Section 1343 for wire fraud.

[manetteska]

23 minutes ago, shadroch said:

 

My original point was that there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the grade CGC gives a book, and it is not a criminal violation to call a book that CGC graded a 7.5 a 9.0, nor is it wrong to call a 7.5 CGC book a 6.0 if thats what you think it is. 

Cool. But you have strayed rather far from your original point, either ignoring willfully or...ignorantly...blatant shilling and dishonest selling practices by photoshopping his pictures to align with his inflated grade. This is no longer (perhaps never was) about disagreeing with CGC's grade. No one said it was criminal to disagree with CGC; in fact, one of your quotes and comments is about shilling as criminal, so why are you being so obtuse?

Perhaps this is your joy during retirement: trolling on the CGC boards.

[James J Johnson]

37 minutes ago, shadroch said:

If having to explain that there is no crime in disagreeing with the grade CGC gives a book is condescending, I'm guilty. 

Ninth time:

Shilling is the crime, 699 crimes of the same nature in the past 30 days alone. Not cracking 7.5s and selling them as raw 9.4s. Or buying raw 2.0s and selling them a 9.2s. Not cracking purple labels and forgetting along the way that it was a purple label when no mention is made of resto. 

That all falls under the category of scumbaggery, which is not a crime, even though everything I've seen thusfar tat he has sold fits the category I described

The shilling is the crime, and here's the proof of that. 

Yes, shill bidding is an officially illegal practice. ... Yet, shill bidding can go to the federal level, so then: Additionally, you can be charged under 18 U.S. Code Section 1343 for wire fraud.

[James J Johnson]

12 minutes ago, BigLeagueCHEW said:

If you put your location as a city of TX, and Shill away, are you breaking the law?

What if you Shill from a remote session on a site hosted in TX, is it still a crime as well?

I know it is a Shilly question to ask.

You can list your location as the moon. If you shill and live anywhere in the US except texas, it's a crime. 

[James J Johnson]

10 minutes ago, D2 said:

What I find disappointing is people defending activity that degrades the hobby and the industry.

 

There is nothing wrong with pointing out malpractice.

 

Is it buyer beware? Do your own research before buying? Yes. 
 

So if people don’t point out fraudulent or even sketchy activity, what’s the point of doing your research anyway?

 

 

 

See something, say something. You've got the idea. 

Is CGC's restoration check offensive to anyone? Because they are checking for deception? 

Edited December 21, 2020 by James J Johnson

[Ride the Tiger]

Why don't you people that don't believe in this cause go start your own thread in support of the piece of garbage? In simpler terms G T F O already. Don't like what we're doing go talk about it in another thread.

[WPPJames]

2 minutes ago, Ride the Tiger said:

Why don't you people that don't believe in this cause go start your own thread in support of the piece of garbage? In simpler terms G T F O already. Don't like what we're doing go talk about it in another thread.

You know I agree with 95% of everything that JJJ and others have stated and done here. But seriously, if someone doesn't agree with you they should not participate and just leave this thread? Start their own thread. No discussion at all between differing viewpoints? G T F O? Real classy.

[James J Johnson]

3 Men Are Charged With Fraud In 1,100 Art Auctions on EBay - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[James J Johnson]

3 minutes ago, WPPJames said:

You know I agree with 95% of everything that JJJ and others have stated and done here. But seriously, if someone doesn't agree with you they should not participate and just leave this thread? Start their own thread. No discussion at all between differing viewpoints? G T F O? Real classy.

All I'm doing is turning over the rocks to expose the slime under them. It's all information based on the record. Everyone can make of that info what they will. 

[thunsicker]

43 minutes ago, shadroch said:

My original point was that there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the grade CGC gives a book, and it is not a criminal violation to call a book that CGC graded a 7.5 a 9.0, nor is it wrong to call a 7.5 CGC book a 6.0 if thats what you think it is. 

Whether or not it's a crime to crack books and sell as higher grade, it is a community service to let people here know that's what he's doing.  And even if it doesn't get him arrested or even kicked off ebay (see Berkbridge which is still selling), if he can warn our little community off those sellers we might just keep this hobby from imploding just a smidge longer.

[D2]

4 hours ago, Pat Thomas said:

Do you not have anything else in your life beside sticking your nose into what others are doing? Are you just alone and lonely or something?No real people to hang with and looking for purpose? Just don't buy from the guy.

It’s this type of attitude and perspective I find is the cornerstone of hypocrisy.

It all changes when you are the one that gets burned.

That’s the irony of it all.

 

15 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

See something, say something. You've got the idea. 

Is CGC's restoration check offensive to anyone? Because they are checking for deception? 

 

Lol, right. They should throw out the SIgnature Series as well while they are at it. 
 

That’s the issue with shadroch’s approach, is that it ignores the very basics of the argument... if they got hit with this, their opinions would change.

Typical perspectives of stubborn people is that they only change when they have to. 
 

Change for the sake of growth? Lol

A hilarious concept 

[WPPJames]

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

All I'm doing is turning over the rocks to expose the slime under them. It's all information based on the record. Everyone can make of that info what they will. 

You are doing great. I've commended you earlier in the thread. And others here. And I appreciate it. You guys are doing a service. My comment wasn't about any of your positive efforts. But "GTFO and start your own thread" was a rude and unnecessary comment made by someone else.

[D2]

13 minutes ago, WPPJames said:

You are doing great. I've commended you earlier in the thread. And others here. And I appreciate it. You guys are doing a service. My comment wasn't about any of your positive efforts. But "GTFO and start your own thread" was a rude and unnecessary comment made by someone else.

I agree.

I am super happy he took the time for this. 
 

I had followed, had, followed, Beatle Blue Lies for years... not obsessively, but he was one of my saved seller searches. I have bought books from him too, but it was before I noticed the flood of Hulk 181s he had listed. 
 

Anyway, long story short is I noticed odd and sketch activity even then, and we are talking years ago. 
 

So this goes without saying that this has gone on for much much too long. 
 

In respect to the other comment of GTFO, I mean, sure... anger develops anger. If they are angry because insufficiently_thoughtful_persons are defending and supporting this gross activity, sure... but anger develops more anger. That type of answer and response is just going to escalate things, nothing more. 

Edited December 21, 2020 by D2

[The Lions Den]

On 12/19/2020 at 3:13 AM, shadroch said:

It's a jungle out there. 

 

You're not just whistling Dixie...  

[shadroch]

28 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

3 Men Are Charged With Fraud In 1,100 Art Auctions on EBay - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

An article from twenty years ago? Seriously? Not even a followup on what happened in the case, just an article about three men being accused twenty years ago.

When I lived in NY, I was ripped off on ebay to the tune of some three hundred dollars. Ebay didn't care, as they said the time to complain was past. Same with paypal. The seller had originally said delivery would take 4-5 months and I didn't realize that would put it past ebays return policy.

I called the Nassau DA who transferred me back and forth to a number of people who suggested I call the NY State AG. When I called them, i was told they only went after Buy it Now cases, not auctions.  If a law is on the books, but no one will enforce it, does it matter if it exists or not? 

i was lucky that someone here recognized the seller as a person who sets up at shows and i was able to call around and find out a show he was doing. He was quite surprised when I showed up at a show several hundred miles away, and more surprised that I'd brought two walking condominiums with me.  

Point out a single person convicted of shilling auctions on ebay?

[the blob]

1 hour ago, october said:

There is utility in calling out bad actors. He won't be arrested and he won't stop selling....who cares? We do what we are able, and I guarantee some potential buyers will see this at a minimum.

An imperfect solution is better than shrugging your shoulders and being cynical about everything. Should we delete the probation list while we are at it? Pretty sure some of those people deal via PM. Guess that makes it pointless. 

It is an admirable hobby and the evidence here is pretty solid. With that said, finding undergraded books on ebay and here is part of the hunt, so I don't think we're under some sort of obligation to say "This VF/NM book was undergraded as a Fine by the guy I bought it from who may or may not have graded all his books "Fine" just to avoid hassles." I'm not even sure one has a moral obligation to mention a book's prior slab grade ... with that said, 7.5 to 9.4 is a stretch in any reality and if nearly every slab someone buys gets significantly upgraded raw, it is scamtastic. With that said, I've bought books on ebay and here that were undergraded a tick or two and I had no issue selling them at what I thought the grade was and nobody ever complained and the other way aroundtoo: The Fine - /5.5 B&B 28 I bought from Metropolis was sold as a 4.5-5.0. Wish I had kept it (and I a not ripping Metropolis, the scan was accurate, I didn't think it was a 5.5 when I bought it, but the price was so good I didn't care, and maybe they don't put much weight on things like chipping).

[kav]

4 hours ago, shadroch said:

So you should have no problem providing a list of people charged with shill bidding on ebay. 

As someone who worked for a bankruptcy auctioneer and who has testified before a grand jury on shill bidding, and violations of Federal auction laws, I will ask you again for a list of people prosecuted for shill bidding on ebay. 

NY State has an office that will get involved in BIN products on ebay if they aren't as described but I seriously doubt they would get involved in overgrading a comic, but unless it has changed in the last few years, they don't get involved in ebay auctions.  Even ebay seems to turn a blind eye to most schilling. After all, it makes them money.

 

 

So has your argument changed from "he's not doing anything wrong" to "No one's gonna do anything about it"?

[kav]

3 hours ago, shadroch said:

Because he is way over the top. Claiming the seller is about to be arrested is stupid and counter-productive. Dupchek has been selling restored books on ebay for years, but we are supposed to believe a guy cracking CGC books and selling them at higher grades is going to be prosecuted. 

 

You keep leaving out the shilling part