They're Still Out There! 22 22

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:13 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Knowing that many of the higher grades have been manufactured has taken the bloom off the rose, so to speak. A high grade doesn't mean anything anymore.

I still buy high grade books, but the roses aren't nearly as plentiful as they used to be...  

[Robot Man]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:13 AM, jimbo_7071 said:

I agree that it isn't an attractive book for the grade. To me, eye appeal and page quality are both more important than the grade, but I guess some collectors feel differently (considering what that book sold for).

The whole CPR phenomenon has left me kind of jaded when it comes to grade. I used to refuse to buy anything below 8.0; now I really don't care. I recently bought a 3.5 on CLink and a 3.0 on eBay. Twenty years ago I wouldn't have even bid on one of my grails in either grade. Knowing that many of the higher grades have been manufactured has taken the bloom off the rose, so to speak. A high grade doesn't mean anything anymore.

High grades are very meaningful to many. I love them and have many. But, if I find a book I really like or want, I can mostly overlook the grade if the price is right (within reason). 

Problem is, many books, sadly including Pedigrees have now been “potentialized”. Even with CGC books that came to be because of this cannot really be trusted anymore. 

So, I have come to carefully buy raw books from trusted sellers in presentable grades that I can examine and enjoy without breaking the bank. 

[lou_fine]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:35 AM, The Lions Den said:

I still buy high grade books, but the roses aren't nearly as plentiful as they used to be...  

As time goes on and everthing becomes more sophisticated, I guess it's also harder to tell the real roses from the fake roses sometimes.  

Greatly appreciate your inside knowledge and sharing your prior experience working at CGC with here and just another question for you...................what's the scoop on dust shadows and sun shadows anyways, as I've heard conflicting information on this defect here.  It seems that half the boardies think they've gotten tougher on this visual defect while the other half thinks they've gotten softer on this visual defect over time?  

Or is it just dependent on your luck of time since I've got a GA book with a clear visual dust shadow and I was hoping whenever it goes through, CGC would be applying this grading whip to the book:    

 

 

as opposed to this much more harsher and nastier grading whip here:   

 

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by lou_fine

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:49 PM, lou_fine said:

As time goes on and everthing becomes more sophisticated, I guess it's also harder to tell the real roses from the fake roses sometimes.  

Greatly appreciate your inside knowledge and sharing your prior experience working at CGC with here and just another question for you...................what's the scoop on dust shadows and sun shadows anyways, as I've heard conflicting information on this defect here.  It seems that half the boardies think they've gotten tougher on this visual defect while the other half thinks they've gotten softer on this visual defect over time?  

Or is it just dependent on your luck of time since I've got a GA book with a clear visual dust shadow and I was hoping whenever it goes through, CGC would be applying this grading whip to the book:    

 

 

as opposed to this much more harsher and nastier grading whip here:   

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ejeW00YcZIc/hqdefault.jpg

 

Um...yeah...OK...whatever you say...

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:12 PM, The Lions Den said:

Boy, those names do sound really familiar...  

I've spent my share of time in northern Michigan. One of the first comic shops I used to go to was in downtown Traverse City. I think it was in the basement of the same building as a restaurant called First National Beef—a building that said "Arcade" on it. (That comic shop is probably long gone.) They never had any GA that I remember, but back then I was excited to get my hands on a beat-up SA or early BA Batman or Tec.

[Aman619]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:21 PM, lou_fine said:

Although this might be a possibility in this particular case, would the graders be able to determine this for sure even if they had the book in hand?   Either way, it clearly doesn't explain that messed up top left corner unless that's the absolute worst bindery chip on a comic book that I've ever seen.  

Without having any of these Promise Collection books in hand, the issue which I have from some of these scans being posted by other boardies here is that some of these grades would only make sense if all of these pictured defects were production related.  As others besides me have also stated here, it would appear that there seems to almost be a built-in assumption of production defect first and formost and then it's up to the graders to show otherwise.  And yet if it was just you or me submitting this book at random, the built-in assumption would be these are all regular wear and time induced defects first and foremost and then up to the graders to see otherwise, which is highy unlikely to happen.    

I definitely agree with you on your last sentence 110%.  

Ive spoken with more than one person who has handled the Promise books and each says they are incredible in hand. Tight, glossy, unread. If you held them you'd understand the grades better. One has to feel that the flaws have been averaged out WITH the perfection in so many other aspects that some here --- looking at scans only --- complain are overly generous. These are like brand new copies with one of two (sometimes pretty noticeable) flaws, thats it!  I won't believe that someone from Heritage who may or may not in fact now be he devil ever makes or felt he needed to make a call to CGC to get gift grades, as if its worth his time, or necessarily gets them without having to ask. But it seems thats as easy for some people to believe as so much other stuff on the internet these days.

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:49 PM, lou_fine said:

Greatly appreciate your inside knowledge and sharing your prior experience working at CGC with here and just another question for you...................what's the scoop on dust shadows and sun shadows anyways, as I've heard conflicting information on this defect here.  It seems that half the boardies think they've gotten tougher on this visual defect while the other half thinks they've gotten softer on this visual defect over time?  

You're welcome! 

I find it interesting that folks think they've gotten tougher on this defect, because many of the Promise collection books I've seen have noticeable shadows and they're still getting some pretty high grades. This may not be what some folks want to hear, but I would guess that because of the age of these books, CGC is being more lenient on this particular flaw. And it certainly wouldn't be the first time...

And in my mind, it seems reasonable to accept the fact that (roughly) 80 year old comic books would have some type of paper degradation due to a variety of factors. I would think that many of the books from that time period would have been adversely affected in some way even if they were carefully stored. What I would expect is that books from the more modern time period (Bronze Age to the present) would be evaluated a bit differently than books from the Golden Age. To be honest, if that's what's taking place I understand the reasoning behind it...   

 

 

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:26 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I've spent my share of time in northern Michigan. One of the first comic shops I used to go to was in downtown Traverse City. I think it was in the basement of the same building as a restaurant called First National Beef—a building that said "Arcade" on it. (That comic shop is probably long gone.) They never had any GA that I remember, but back then I was excited to get my hands on a beat-up SA or early BA Batman or Tec.

Yeah dude, I know that building! That basement shop was also a stereo place for awhile, and the top level used to have a Halloween/movie prop store. 

[jimjum12]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:28 PM, Aman619 said:

who may or may not in fact now be he devil ever makes or felt he needed to make a call to CGC to get gift grades,

[eschnit]

On 5/20/2021 at 11:30 AM, sfcityduck said:

On the video, Matt and Brian both agreed that the MH books are superior to the Promise books.  Better structurally, page quality, and preservation.  Matt made it clear that MH is undoubtedly better than Promise (and he also gave a nod to SF), and as the chief grader for CGC he should know.  But, its a really good point that the MH did not go straight into encapsulation, so Matt's comment is talking about the well-preserved MHs. 

The area where Matt and Brian saw the Promise as far superior to the MHs was in the backstory.  I completely agree.  Far superior.  And I'm not talking about the backstory told by Heritage.  The MH story is important to comic collecting history, but it is a story a man perhaps placing his livelihood above his family and about a family relationship that seems more than a bit sad.  What kind of dad cares more about comics than his kids?  As for the Promise backstory, Matt and Brian said they are going to take their place near Okajima on backstory, and that statement by them was definitely not hype.  

I expect to end up with a handful of Promise books myself, and I don’t own any Okajima.  Obviously the Okajima story has had time to build in life over the years, whereas this one is brand new.  But for my taste, the story doesn’t remotely rival Okajima.  It’s an interesting story, but I think we do a disservice to it to compare it to Okajima.  Of the 60 pedigrees, the Promise may be top 10 most interesting, certainly in the top half.  Whereas Okajima is clearly top 2 or 3, and to most #1.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 8/31/2021 at 12:31 PM, eschnit said:

I expect to end up with a handful of Promise books myself, and I don’t own any Okajima.  Obviously the Okajima story has had time to build in life over the years, whereas this one is brand new.  But for my taste, the story doesn’t remotely rival Okajima.  It’s an interesting story, but I think we do a disservice to it to compare it to Okajima.  Of the 60 pedigrees, the Promise may be top 10 most interesting, certainly in the top half.  Whereas Okajima is clearly top 2 or 3, and to most #1.

 

Just out of curiosity, what are your top 3 most interesting pedigree stories (not quality of books, quality of backstory)?

 

[Aman619]

Well, the protagonists were both victims of the wars.  One died while that other just got stuck in a very long and  very bad summer camp.

 

and please dont take that the wrong way.  Japanese interned kids have told me that while their parents were very angry to have lost their rights as citizens as well as their possessions, the little kids — as kids do everywhere — played and took it in stride… by comparison to the adults.

[Sarg]

On 8/28/2021 at 5:28 PM, Aman619 said:

 If you held them you'd understand the grades better. 

I don't remember that being a qualification for grading before. What used to be graded 8.5 usually looked like an 8.5 on a computer screen. 

[jimjum12]

On 8/31/2021 at 7:56 PM, Sarg said:

I don't remember that being a qualification for grading before. What used to be graded 8.5 usually looked like an 8.5 on a computer screen. 

That's not always true.... I have seen what I felt were significantly overgraded books as far back as 2005, and this is on screen and in hand both ... I wasn't paying attention to them much before then.... I always gravitated towards raw books of titles I enjoyed reading. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Robot Man]

To me, the king of the pedigrees will always be the Church collection. 

The fact that even existed. It was not put together for financial gain just painstakingly, week after week bought off the newstand and carefully put away probably unread. Why? And other than just a handful of books, EVERYTHING is there! 

The best part of that story is the discovery and purchase of it. I have spoken to Chuck about it several times. I can’t even imagine picking up a random handful of them out of the “closet” that was piled to the ceiling. And, at the time not really knowing the extent of it. 

I remember well the first show he unveiled it at. Everything we ever knew about “mint” just went out the window. After 40+ years, I am still blown away when I pull out some of the raw books I bought that day. The wet ink gloss, sharp corners, bone white pages and “that smell”. 

Nothing pressed,cleaned, color touched or “potentialized” and sealed in a plastic holder. 

The books speak for themselves. 

Quite the story when you know it all. The Okajima, Larson, the San Francisco (or Riley if you believe Mr Beerbaum), and yes the Promise all have good stories as well but none have yet to match up with the Church.

Comic collecting folklore folks...

    

[jimjum12]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:25 PM, Robot Man said:

To me, the king of the pedigrees will always be the Church collection. 

The fact that even existed. It was not put together for financial gain just painstakingly, week after week bought off the newstand and carefully put away probably unread. Why? And other than just a handful of books, EVERYTHING is there! 

The best part of that story is the discovery and purchase of it. I have spoken to Chuck about it several times. I can’t even imagine picking up a random handful of them out of the “closet” that was piled to the ceiling. And, at the time not really knowing the extent of it. 

I remember well the first show he unveiled it at. Everything we ever knew about “mint” just went out the window. After 40+ years, I am still blown away when I pull out some of the raw books I bought that day. The wet ink gloss, sharp corners, bone white pages and “that smell”. 

Nothing pressed,cleaned, color touched or “potentialized” and sealed in a plastic holder. 

The books speak for themselves. 

Quite the story when you know it all. The Okajima, Larson, the San Francisco (or Riley if you believe Mr Beerbaum), and yes the Promise all have good stories as well but none have yet to match up with the Church.

Comic collecting folklore folks...

    

One thing I always wondered was just exactly how much of a deal did Chuck get ? I mean, they didn't fly off the shelf. How much would other dealers pony up if it had been an auction type situation. I wouldn't imagine many back then would have whipped out 100K for a collection like that. Chuck put in a lot of work with it... sure there was a degree of "shooting fish in a barrel " but not completely. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... is Gary Carter still around ?

[Readcomix]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:34 PM, jimjum12 said:

One thing I always wondered was just exactly how much of a deal did Chuck get ? I mean, they didn't fly off the shelf. How much would other dealers pony up if it had been an auction type situation. I wouldn't imagine many back then would have whipped out 100K for a collection like that. Chuck put in a lot of work with it... sure there was a degree of "shooting fish in a barrel " but not completely. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... is Gary Carter still around ?

I haven’t spoken to Gary in years but @Pat Calhoun might be in touch more recently.

[Sarg]

On 8/31/2021 at 7:25 PM, Robot Man said:

To me, the king of the pedigrees will always be the Church collection. 

And other than just a handful of books, EVERYTHING is there!     

That would be the subject of an interesting thread: what wasn't in the Church collection.

[Robot Man]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:34 PM, jimjum12 said:

One thing I always wondered was just exactly how much of a deal did Chuck get ? I mean, they didn't fly off the shelf. How much would other dealers pony up if it had been an auction type situation. I wouldn't imagine many back then would have whipped out 100K for a collection like that. Chuck put in a lot of work with it... sure there was a degree of "shooting fish in a barrel " but not completely. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

.... is Gary Carter still around ?

If common folklore is true, he might have paid as little as cover price. Roughly $2,200. Even at prices of the day, wouldn't take real long to break even. Once the word got out, he would actually invite the first person over who was willing to spend $10K at one time once a year at the advice of his accountant. I know John McLaughlin was one of those people. I think maybe Redbeard and Verzyl as well but don't know for sure. He was constantly making money off the collection and smartly re-investing it in his business. Believe me, he did quite well. Now, in an auction scenario? He would have probably done even better but there really weren't such things back then. If there were, he would have done it. 

Gary Carter is still around and well but completely out of the hobby. 

[Robot Man]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:49 PM, Sarg said:

That would be the subject of an interesting thread: what wasn't in the Church collection.

Is there a Church Suspense #3?