They're Still Out There! 22 22

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:20 AM, Robot Man said:

Been thinking about it. For the price of one over graded, hyped and priced Promise book or this? 

  

[tth2]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:20 PM, Robot Man said:

Been thinking about it. For the price of one over graded, hyped and priced Promise book or this? 

Depends what your priorities and tastes are.

I look at it and think "An old car is all I get in exchange for a really cool comic?"

[namisgr]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:29 PM, MrBedrock said:

I like this line of questioning. Maybe you (Jimbo) could post nice scans of some of the CGC graded 8.5s that you have owned and give us a breakdown of why you think they received that grade.

[Robot Man]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:31 AM, tth2 said:

Depends what your priorities and tastes are.

I look at it and think "An old car is all I get in exchange for a really cool comic?"

An "Old Car"?  

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:31 AM, tth2 said:

Depends what your priorities and tastes are.

I look at it and think "An old car is all I get in exchange for a really cool comic?"

Ah, but a car like that is a "babe-magnet!"   

[Robot Man]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:49 AM, The Lions Den said:

Ah, but a car like that is a "babe-magnet!"   

And a lot of fun to drive to the bank in to deposit my comic sales money...

[Dark Knight]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:49 AM, The Lions Den said:

Ah, but a car like that is a "babe-magnet!"   

Not just a babe-magnet, but also a dark knight magnet 

[jimjum12]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:49 AM, The Lions Den said:

Ah, but a car like that is a "babe-magnet!"   

So now we're trading the cool comic for even MORE trouble  GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[buttock]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:44 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I'd love to know your thoughts on why the Gangsters Can't Win received an 8.5 grade. Have you studied CGC grading enough to have a good idea of how much of a deduction is taken for each common defect? Perhaps you could give a breakdown of how the visible defects on that book contributed to the grade. It appears to show more wear and tear than any of the 8.5s that I've owned.

 

 

 

 

 

The only possible justification for that grade is that most of what looks like creasing is actually just linear color loss from the printing process (seen that a few times).  I'm not saying that it is or isn't, but that's the only way I can see them reasonably giving that book an 8.5.  Otherwise... 

Regardless, it's not an attractive book for the grade.  

[buttock]

On 8/28/2021 at 9:49 AM, The Lions Den said:

Ah, but a car like that is a "babe-magnet!"   

Babes with dentures. 

[lou_fine]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:24 AM, The Lions Den said:

And it's true that pre-graders will enter specific notes to save time for the finalizers and bring hard-to-see flaws to their attention. Moreover, the finalizer will enter notes for a flaw the pre-graders missed, which also helps to explain why a book that looks like a 9.6 received an 8.5...   

So I would advise purchasing notes, especially for more expensive books. It can make the difference between "yay" or "nay..."  

Greatly appreciate your response here.  

Dumb question here, are you implying there is a 3-step process here in terms of a pre-grader and then graders before the book goes to a finalizer?  

Your post here would seem to indicate that the Grader's Notes would be a pretty comprehensive list of all of the defects that would go into determining the final grade.  Yet, many boardies here state that this is not necessarily the case as it's not incumbent on the grader's to list all or even any of the defects, which explains why a book that receives a CGC grade of 9.0 can have the exact same notes as one that comes back with a CGC 9.6 grade or CGC 9.8 in future rounds.   

[lou_fine]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:39 AM, The Lions Den said:

I would say yes, but certain flaws will take the grade down faster than this guy falls off a cliff...

 

 

Would you happen to be referring to those near invisible but easily fixable additional revenue generating defects that used to be much lower down on collector's hit parade in the old days prior to CGC, but which have continually shot up the chart with a bullet as CGC's undisclosed grading standards have devolved evolved over time?  

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:18 AM, Zonker said:

The most surprising part of this conversation to me is the part bolded above.  Most of the published Overstreet grading definitions (which last I heard CGC claimed to be following) are not exactly quantified.  But spine splits are precisely quantified for various grades.  And no copy of any Overstreet publication I've seen allows for 3/4 inch+ spine splits at any grade of 5.0 or above. 

Do others here have similar experiences, i.e. that a book's other virtues will allow CGC graders to "forgive" what is otherwise a disqualifying defect for the final grade?  

I've seen that frequently, especially on pedigree books, but I wouldn't say that CGC has been that consistent. Books that have one major defect seem to be graded with less consistency than books that have general wear.

[lou_fine]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:42 AM, namisgr said:

Perfect case in point being this beauty of a book here, as compared to that fugly Gangsters Can't Win #2 with the exact same equivalent CGC 8.5 grade.   

Interesting to note that the serial number for this copy of X-Men is no longer in their system, so I assume they must have paid their proper dues to the CCG ownership in order to get their rightful and proper grade which they probably should have receive from the get go.  

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:49 AM, The Lions Den said:

Ah, but a car like that is a "babe-magnet!"   

Since you're a northern Michigander, did you ever go to Don's Drive-In in Traverse City or the Cherry Bowl Drive-In movie theater over in Benzie County? You'd fit right in! I definitely think you should buy that car instead of bidding on comic books.

Edited August 28, 2021 by jimbo_7071

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:00 PM, lou_fine said:

Perfect case in point being this beauty of a book here, as compared to that fugly Gangsters Can't Win #2 with the exact same equivalent CGC 8.5 grade.   

Interesting to note that the serial number for this copy of X-Men is no longer in their system, so I assume they must have paid their proper dues to the CCG ownership in order to get their rightful and proper grade which they probably should have receive from the get go.  

  Could be...

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 2:03 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

Since you're a northern Michigander, did you ever go to Don's Drive-In in Traverse City or the Cherry Bowl Drive-In movie theater over in Benzie County? You'd fit right in! I definitely think you should buy that cars instead of bidding on comic books.

Boy, those names do sound really familiar...  

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:24 PM, buttock said:

The only possible justification for that grade is that most of what looks like creasing is actually just linear color loss from the printing process (seen that a few times).  I'm not saying that it is or isn't, but that's the only way I can see them reasonably giving that book an 8.5.  Otherwise... 

Regardless, it's not an attractive book for the grade.  

I agree that it isn't an attractive book for the grade. To me, eye appeal and page quality are both more important than the grade, but I guess some collectors feel differently (considering what that book sold for).

The whole CPR phenomenon has left me kind of jaded when it comes to grade. I used to refuse to buy anything below 8.0; now I really don't care. I recently bought a 3.5 on CLink and a 3.0 on eBay. Twenty years ago I wouldn't have even bid on one of my grails in either grade. Knowing that many of the higher grades have been manufactured has taken the bloom off the rose, so to speak. A high grade doesn't mean anything anymore.

Edited August 28, 2021 by jimbo_7071

[lou_fine]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:24 AM, buttock said:

The only possible justification for that grade is that most of what looks like creasing is actually just linear color loss from the printing process (seen that a few times).  I'm not saying that it is or isn't, but that's the only way I can see them reasonably giving that book an 8.5.  Otherwise... 

Regardless, it's not an attractive book for the grade.  

Although this might be a possibility in this particular case, would the graders be able to determine this for sure even if they had the book in hand?   Either way, it clearly doesn't explain that messed up top left corner unless that's the absolute worst bindery chip on a comic book that I've ever seen.  

Without having any of these Promise Collection books in hand, the issue which I have from some of these scans being posted by other boardies here is that some of these grades would only make sense if all of these pictured defects were production related.  As others besides me have also stated here, it would appear that there seems to almost be a built-in assumption of production defect first and formost and then it's up to the graders to show otherwise.  And yet if it was just you or me submitting this book at random, the built-in assumption would be these are all regular wear and time induced defects first and foremost and then up to the graders to see otherwise, which is highy unlikely to happen.    

I definitely agree with you on your last sentence 110%.  

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:49 PM, lou_fine said:

Greatly appreciate your response here.  

Dumb question here, are you implying there is a 3-step process here in terms of a pre-grader and then graders before the book goes to a finalizer?  

Your post here would seem to indicate that the Grader's Notes would be a pretty comprehensive list of all of the defects that would go into determining the final grade.  Yet, many boardies here state that this is not necessarily the case as it's not incumbent on the grader's to list all or even any of the defects, which explains why a book that receives a CGC grade of 9.0 can have the exact same notes as one that comes back with a CGC 9.6 grade or CGC 9.8 in future rounds.   

The process can vary, but generally there will be a pre-grader, a finalizer and a restoration check. And it is unfortunate that things have become so inconsistent with the notes...

 

On 8/28/2021 at 1:55 PM, lou_fine said:

Would you happen to be referring to those near invisible but easily fixable additional revenue generating defects that used to be much lower down on collector's hit parade in the old days prior to CGC, but which have continually shot up the chart with a bullet as CGC's undisclosed grading standards have devolved evolved over time?  

Actually, I'm referring to things like tears and stains...but I do miss the old days...