They're Still Out There! 22 22

[lou_fine]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:58 PM, The Lions Den said:

I appreciate the visual evidence, but CGC has always based their final grade on the condition of the entire book, not just the front cover. But I must admit, I do enjoy your posts on this subject---they're entertaining. And I agree with you about the condition issues you've pointed out. It really does make a strong case for the "buy the book, not the grade" strategy...   

Exactly, and that is why I have always said that you can never tell if a book is undergraded without having the actual book in hand or by simply looking at a front and back cover scan.  

Then again, sometimes the clear and visual defects seen on the cover scans of a book alone is more than enough to make you question if the book is possibly overgraded, without having to consider the "hidden parts" of the book which you cannot see from a scan.  

Greatly appreciate your sense of humour here, as it seems that far too many of our board members here just take these things too seriously sometimes.  Actually, it should be pointed out that I am not the original source of the condition issues noted on these Promise Collection books here, as they are usually sourced from another boardie's post and sometimes I just try to add a touch of humour to them in an attempt to lighten the mood a bit.  Especially since I've received quite a few PM's from other boardies who seem almost ready to burst a gasket with some of the things they think are happening here.  This should definitely not be the case because these are all about the funny books after all.  

And as you said and which I have also stated many times here before.................as a comic book collector, you should always buy the book, as opposed to buying the label.  Especially since grading is really nothing more than a subjective opinion (albeit it a so-called "expert" one) at the time a book crosses the grader's table, as opposed to being an exact science.  

[The Lions Den]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:38 PM, lou_fine said:

Exactly, and that is why I have always said that you can never tell if a book is undergraded without having the actual book in hand or by simply looking at a front and back cover scan.  

Then again, sometimes the clear and visual defects seen on the cover scans of a book alone is more than enough to make you question if the book is possibly overgraded, without having to consider the "hidden parts" of the book which you cannot see from a scan.  

Greatly appreciate your sense of humour here, as it seems that far too many of our board members here just take these things too seriously sometimes.  Actually, it should be pointed out that I am not the original source of the condition issues noted on these Promise Collection books here, as they are usually sourced from another boardie's post and sometimes I just try to add a touch of humour to them in an attempt to lighten the mood a bit.  Especially since I've received quite a few PM's from other boardies who seem almost ready to burst a gasket with some of the things they think are happening here.  This should definitely not be the case because these are all about the funny books after all.  

And as you said and which I have also stated many times here before.................as a comic book collector, you should always buy the book, as opposed to buying the label.  Especially since grading is really nothing more than a subjective opinion (albeit it a so-called "expert" one) at the time a book crosses the grader's table, as opposed to being an exact science.  

I appreciate your keen insight---right on the money. But perhaps I can provide a slice of personal conjecture... 

With the Promise books, I'm reasonably confident they're being graded by (believe it or not) an experienced group of CGC graders---they wouldn't throw a collection of this magnitude at a "newbie." I would guess that their system would be much the same as it has been all along, which would mean that there'd be at least one experienced pre-grader (or more) and one finalizer (or more) involved in the process, as well as at least one restoration expert (many of the graders and pre-graders at CGC are very good at detecting restoration as well).

But the key thing to remember here is that the finalizers make the final call on the grade, regardless of what the other graders think. It's like being the captain of a ship---other officers can express their opinion, but the captain decides the final course of action. We can agree or not agree, but barring a resubmission or unauthorized crack-out, that book will carry that grade forward. I can remember many times where the grade differed from grader to grader, and it usually involved a book with an odd flaw (think "mouse chew" or "production defect"). But the finalizer ultimately makes that call and the responsibility rests with them. 

Having said this, I've studied many of the Promise books, and with a few exceptions I understand exactly why they were graded the way they were and I can accept the grade they received. So if anyone thinks that CGC has somehow lost their "grading mojo" with this collection, I'd have to respectfully disagree. 

But that is, of course, only my opinion...   

[Cat-Man_America]

On 8/26/2021 at 8:58 PM, The Lions Den said:

I appreciate the visual evidence, but CGC has always based their final grade on the condition of the entire book, not just the front cover. But I must admit, I do enjoy your posts on this subject---they're entertaining. And I agree with you about the condition issues you've pointed out. It really does make a strong case for the "buy the book, not the grade" strategy...   

While I completely agree with this approach, the grade can't be ignored as one of the trade-offs to encapsulation, and on that grade rests a lot more than just the value of the book.  The 800 lb. gorilla peaking around the door is whether grading can be taken seriously and the concerns, rumors, doubts, etc., about market manipulation and the future of the hobby.  These are weightier issues and everything hinges on high grades and the associated adjustments made through pedigrees status

This is without even addressing the pressing and bumps thing which has now become totally accepted in the hobby.   

On 8/26/2021 at 10:38 PM, lou_fine said:

Exactly, and that is why I have always said that you can never tell if a book is undergraded without having the actual book in hand or by simply looking at a front and back cover scan.  

Then again, sometimes the clear and visual defects seen on the cover scans of a book alone is more than enough to make you question if the book is possibly overgraded, without having to consider the "hidden parts" of the book which you cannot see from a scan.  

Greatly appreciate your sense of humour here, as it seems that far too many of our board members here just take these things too seriously sometimes.  Actually, it should be pointed out that I am not the original source of the condition issues noted on these Promise Collection books here, as they are usually sourced from another boardie's post and sometimes I just try to add a touch of humour to them in an attempt to lighten the mood a bit.  Especially since I've received quite a few PM's from other boardies who seem almost ready to burst a gasket with some of the things they think are happening here.  This should definitely not be the case because these are all about the funny books after all.  

And as you said and which I have also stated many times here before.................as a comic book collector, you should always buy the book, as opposed to buying the label.  Especially since grading is really nothing more than a subjective opinion (albeit it a so-called "expert" one) at the time a book crosses the grader's table, as opposed to being an exact science.  

Agree with this, but comics can be a serious matter with grade and dollars riding on outcomes.  Way too serious at times, but that's because it's big business as well as a hobby.

On 8/27/2021 at 9:42 AM, The Lions Den said:

I appreciate your keen insight---right on the money. But perhaps I can provide a slice of personal conjecture... 

With the Promise books, I'm reasonably confident they're being graded by (believe it or not) an experienced group of CGC graders---they wouldn't throw a collection of this magnitude at a "newbie." I would guess that their system would be much the same as it has been all along, which would mean that there'd be at least one experienced pre-grader (or more) and one finalizer (or more) involved in the process, as well as at least one restoration expert (many of the graders and pre-graders at CGC are very good at detecting restoration as well).

But the key thing to remember here is that the finalizers make the final call on the grade, regardless of what the other graders think. It's like being the captain of a ship---other officers can express their opinion, but the captain decides the final course of action. We can agree or not agree, but barring a resubmission or unauthorized crack-out, that book will carry that grade forward. I can remember many times where the grade differed from grader to grader, and it usually involved a book with an odd flaw (think "mouse chew" or "production defect"). But the finalizer ultimately makes that call and the responsibility rests with them. 

Having said this, I've studied many of the Promise books, and with a few exceptions I understand exactly why they were graded the way they were and I can accept the grade they received. So if anyone thinks that CGC has somehow lost their "grading mojo" with this collection, I'd have to respectfully disagree. 

But that is, of course, only my opinion...   

Agree ...especially with that last line.  

[The Lions Den]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:10 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

While I completely agree with this approach, the grade can't be ignored as one of the trade-offs to encapsulation, and on that grade rests a lot more than just the value of the book.  The 800 lb. gorilla peaking around the door is whether grading can be taken seriously and the concerns, rumors, doubts, etc., about market manipulation and the future of the hobby.  These are weightier issues and everything hinges on high grades and the associated adjustments made through pedigrees status

This is without even addressing the pressing and bumps thing which has now become totally accepted in the hobby.   

Agree with this, but comics can be a serious matter with grade and dollars riding on outcomes.  Way too serious at times, but that's because it's big business as well as a hobby.

Agree ...especially with that last line.  

To be honest, I've become rather numb to the whole "comics as an investment/market manipulation" thing. My goal these days is to give what I hope is solid advice to help other collectors make better decisions. Knowing some simple things about how CGC and CCS operate should improve their overall experience. As to whether or not grading companies are a viable option for the hobby, I think the 800 lb. gorilla has already broken free and is currently running amok...   

[jimbo_7071]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:42 AM, The Lions Den said:

Having said this, I've studied many of the Promise books, and with a few exceptions I understand exactly why they were graded the way they were and I can accept the grade they received. 

I'd love to know your thoughts on why the Gangsters Can't Win received an 8.5 grade. Have you studied CGC grading enough to have a good idea of how much of a deduction is taken for each common defect? Perhaps you could give a breakdown of how the visible defects on that book contributed to the grade. It appears to show more wear and tear than any of the 8.5s that I've owned.

 

 

 

 

 

[MrBedrock]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:44 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I'd love to know your thoughts on why the Gangsters Can't Win received an 8.5 grade. Have you studied CGC grading enough to have a good idea of how much of a deduction is taken for each common defect? Perhaps you could give a breakdown of how the visible defects on that book contributed to the grade. It appears to show more wear and tear than any of the 8.5s that I've owned.

 

I like this line of questioning. Maybe you (Jimbo) could post nice scans of some of the CGC graded 8.5s that you have owned and give us a breakdown of why you think they received that grade.

[The Lions Den]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:44 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

I'd love to know your thoughts on why the Gangsters Can't Win received an 8.5 grade. Have you studied CGC grading enough to have a good idea of how much of a deduction is taken for each common defect? Perhaps you could give a breakdown of how the visible defects on that book contributed to the grade. It appears to show more wear and tear than any of the 8.5s that I've owned.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I can offer an opinion based on what I've seen both working there and from looking at hundreds of other CGC books since then. 

As far as a formula goes, for me there is no set amount on how much a given defect will affect the grade. I can tell you that certain defects aren't allowed in certain grades, but since each book is different it's tough to say how much a given defect will affect the grade. 

On the Gangsters #2, with all due respect, I don't agree with the final grade. I think the book has too much visible spine wear (and tear) to justify an 8.5. But the finalizer makes that call...  

Edited August 27, 2021 by The Lions Den

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

Man these flakes and staple sure look and feel like a 6.0 to me.. 

[Funnybooks]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:48 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Man these flakes and staple sure look and feel like a 6.0 to me.. 

slightly brittle 😂

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:49 PM, Funnybooks said:

slightly brittle 😂

If they came from the Promise easy Off White.. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by onlyweaknesskryptonite
"Newsstand Fresh"

[Funnybooks]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:52 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

If they came from the Promise easy Off White.. 

WE

white enough 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:59 PM, Funnybooks said:

WE

white enough 

[The Lions Den]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:48 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Man these flakes and staple sure look and feel like a 6.0 to me.. 

This actually looks like the same product we make at my current job---OSB strands.  

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:02 PM, The Lions Den said:

This actually looks like the same product we make at my current job---OSB strands.  

OBS....

That would be like printing money.. 

[lou_fine]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:42 AM, The Lions Den said:

I appreciate your keen insight---right on the money. But perhaps I can provide a slice of personal conjecture... 

Greatly appreciate your thoughts here since you did used to work at CGC before in the past.  

Whie you are giving us your personal conjecture here, can you also give us the lowdown on the Grader's Notes at the sane time.  Seems that many boardies here feel that the Grader's Notes is not necessarily a listing of all or even any of the defects that goes into determining the grade of a book, as they are just internal notes from one grader to the next and really nothing more than that.  

As far as you are aware, is this actually true, and if so, why in the world should we be paying for Grader's Notes since they aren't necessarily providing the purchaser with all of the defects that goes into the determination of the final grade?  

[LearnedHand]

On 8/26/2021 at 9:58 PM, The Lions Den said:

I appreciate the visual evidence, but CGC has always based their final grade on the condition of the entire book, not just the front cover. But I must admit, I do enjoy your posts on this subject---they're entertaining. And I agree with you about the condition issues you've pointed out. It really does make a strong case for the "buy the book, not the grade" strategy...   

 

Regarding: "CGC's final grade on condition is based on the book in its totality"

This is an absolutely true statement.  And the pragmatic context is:  a general review of the exterior supports (hypothetically) a grade of say 9.0.  The interior covers have staining (deduct), the interior has foxing (deduct), there is a small gouge on the rear cover (deduct), etc. 

One basic real-life example to illustrate:  the Nicholas Cage More Fun #59 initially received a grade of CGC 8.0.  It presents much nicer.  Why the 8.0? According to CGC at the time: "it has a 3/4" - 1" spine split; a book with this size spine split can't grade > 8.0."  Said differently, if the book's exterior is 8.0 and the pages are snow white, the grade is not going to jump up.  

Sorry, but this "totality/final grade" mantra seems to be becoming the prevalent misapplied justification for over-graded books.

 

Edited August 28, 2021 by LearnedHand

[Zonker]

On 8/28/2021 at 8:16 AM, LearnedHand said:

 

One basic real-life example to illustrate:  the Nicholas Cage More Fun #59 initially received a grade of CGC 8.0.  It presents much nicer.  Why the 8.0? According to CGC at the time: "it has a 3/4" - 1" spine split; a book with this size spine split can't grade > 8.0."  

 

The most surprising part of this conversation to me is the part bolded above.  Most of the published Overstreet grading definitions (which last I heard CGC claimed to be following) are not exactly quantified.  But spine splits are precisely quantified for various grades.  And no copy of any Overstreet publication I've seen allows for 3/4 inch+ spine splits at any grade of 5.0 or above. 

Do others here have similar experiences, i.e. that a book's other virtues will allow CGC graders to "forgive" what is otherwise a disqualifying defect for the final grade?  

[jimjum12]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:18 AM, Zonker said:

The most surprising part of this conversation to me is the part bolded above.  Most of the published Overstreet grading definitions (which last I heard CGC claimed to be following) are not exactly quantified.  But spine splits are precisely quantified for various grades.  And no copy of any Overstreet publication I've seen allows for 3/4 inch+ spine splits at any grade of 5.0 or above. 

Do others here have similar experiences, i.e. that a book's other virtues will allow CGC graders to "forgive" what is otherwise a disqualifying defect for the final grade?  

I'm not going into detailed specifics, but I have removed several books that looked very undergraded, only to find defects that OPG doesn't allow in that grade... but in CGC's defense, the rest of the book was in exceptional shape.... so in my experience, they do consider a books positives as well ... as they probably should. I know many people who only put a price on their convention books because they don't want to spend half a show lawyering the grade on one book. It can get ridiculous. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Robot Man]

Been thinking about it. For the price of one over graded, hyped and priced Promise book or this? 

[The Lions Den]

On 8/28/2021 at 1:37 AM, lou_fine said:

Greatly appreciate your thoughts here since you did used to work at CGC before in the past.  

Whie you are giving us your personal conjecture here, can you also give us the lowdown on the Grader's Notes at the sane time.  Seems that many boardies here feel that the Grader's Notes is not necessarily a listing of all or even any of the defects that goes into determining the grade of a book, as they are just internal notes from one grader to the next and really nothing more than that.  

As far as you are aware, is this actually true, and if so, why in the world should we be paying for Grader's Notes since they aren't necessarily providing the purchaser with all of the defects that goes into the determination of the final grade?  

Back in the "olden days" we used to type the notes by hand. Personally, I liked to write extensive notes, especially on books that were valuable. To me, the notes actually help identify the book, which is important for any number of reasons...  

And it's true that pre-graders will enter specific notes to save time for the finalizers and bring hard-to-see flaws to their attention. Moreover, the finalizer will enter notes for a flaw the pre-graders missed, which also helps to explain why a book that looks like a 9.6 received an 8.5...   

So I would advise purchasing notes, especially for more expensive books. It can make the difference between "yay" or "nay..."