They're Still Out There! 22 22

[buttock]

On 8/31/2021 at 6:54 PM, Robot Man said:

Is there a Church Suspense #3?

Yup.  CBCS graded & in the HA archives. 

[lou_fine]

On 8/31/2021 at 12:31 PM, eschnit said:

On the video, Matt and Brian both agreed that the MH books are superior to the Promise books.  Better structurally, page quality, and preservation.  Matt made it clear that MH is undoubtedly better than Promise (and he also gave a nod to SF), and as the chief grader for CGC he should know. 

Not only from a condition grading point of view, but most definitely from a "quality of book" point of view.  Especially since the Edgar Church Mile High collection goes all the way back to the late 1930's, and as a result, have pretty much all of the big GA keys within its collection.  This is clearly not the case with the Promise Collection set of books as we are already starting to find out with it seeming to be populated by so many titles that collectors have not heard of or normally have much interest in and also mostly non-key mid-run issues since the collection comes almost entirely from the later 1943 time period going forward.  

From a condition grading point of view, I would have to say the CGC grades as given are right up there with even more than what we have come to expect from a quality pedigree collection.  Unfortunately, the only issue here is the seeming inconsistency in the assigned CGC grades as compared to some of the scans which board members have been posting here.  Based upon this seeming and possible overgrading in enough of the books to raise the question of inconsistent grading, I feel that CGC has done a disservice and possibly have tarnished its reputation from a grading POV longer term.  Needless to say, this has not been an impediment to the prices shorter term as bidders seem to have brought into all of the overblown hype by Heritage and the nosebleed numbers at the top of the slab even though the appearance on some of the underlying books might not correspond to the assigned CGC grade on a consistent basis.  

 

On 8/31/2021 at 12:31 PM, eschnit said:

Obviously the Okajima story has had time to build in life over the years, whereas this one is brand new.  But for my taste, the story doesn’t remotely rival Okajima.  It’s an interesting story, but I think we do a disservice to it to compare it to Okajima.

Especially when it seems that some collectors or boardies here are even questioning the validity of the story as presented by Heritage in their videos and media releases.  Not sure why, but I guess it has to do with the complete lack of information or confirmation from the family itself.    

[eschnit]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:38 PM, sfcityduck said:

Just out of curiosity, what are your top 3 most interesting pedigree stories (not quality of books, quality of backstory)?

 

Wasn’t trying to be pretentious. Other folks I’m sure have different opinions, and know more than me.  3 that come to mind for sure for me are Okajima, Chinatown, and San Francisco.

[lou_fine]

On 8/31/2021 at 5:34 PM, jimjum12 said:

One thing I always wondered was just exactly how much of a deal did Chuck get ? I mean, they didn't fly off the shelf. How much would other dealers pony up if it had been an auction type situation. I wouldn't imagine many back then would have whipped out 100K for a collection like that.

You can't be serious here.  

I bet you that 100% of the comic book dealers would have stepped right up and paid more than the 10 cents cover price that Chuck ended up paying if they had seen the books beforehand.  Are you really saying that bidders wouldn't have bid more than 10 cents per copy on those books if it was in a live auction format sale, even back then.  

Of course, the Church family probably thought their prayers had been answered because they managed to find some hippie kid who was foolish enough to pay full brand new cover prices (i.e $2,000 for an estimated 20,000 books) for what they probably thought were nothing more than old used smelly comic books.  

Edited September 1, 2021 by lou_fine

[comicnoir]

On 8/31/2021 at 10:48 PM, lou_fine said:

You can't be serious here.  

I bet you that 100% of the comic book dealers would have stepped right up and paid more than the 10 cents cover price that Chuck ended up paying if they had seen the books beforehand.  Are you really saying that bidders wouldn't have bid more than 10 cents per copy on those books if it was in a live auction format sale, even back then.  

Of course, the Church family probably thought their prayers had been answered because they managed to find some hippie kid who was foolish enough to pay full brand new cover prices (i.e $2,000 for an estimated 20,000 books) for what they probably thought were nothing more than old used smelly comic books.  

Chuck said he brought the Guide with him when he saw the family. Too bad he left it in the truck.

[Randall Dowling]

On 8/31/2021 at 7:54 PM, Robot Man said:

Is there a Church Suspense #3?

[sfcityduck]

On 8/31/2021 at 7:48 PM, lou_fine said:

You can't be serious here.  

I bet you that 100% of the comic book dealers would have stepped right up and paid more than the 10 cents cover price that Chuck ended up paying if they had seen the books beforehand.  Are you really saying that bidders wouldn't have bid more than 10 cents per copy on those books if it was in a live auction format sale, even back then.  

 

Worth noting that Bangzoom was buying comics in the 1960s and 1970s through ads.  And he was paying many more multiples than Chuck did, double digit multiples more, when he bought the 1,000+ book OO collection from D.C. that blew away the board when it was first posted - and he bought that collection in 1973 before the MH collection was purchased by Chuck.  

[lou_fine]

On 8/31/2021 at 8:15 PM, sfcityduck said:

Worth noting that Bangzoom was buying comics in the 1960s and 1970s through ads.  And he was paying many more multiples than Chuck did, double digit multiples more, when he bought the 1,000+ book OO collection from D.C. that blew away the board when it was first posted - and he bought that collection in 1973 before the MH collection was purchased by Chuck.  

Well, since Chuckles only paid about 10 cents for each one of the Church books, let me be the first, but definitely not the only one that I would have gladly paid double digit multiples more that what Chuck had paid for his Church books.  

[Larryw7]

The mention of Gary Carter in a couple of posts inspired me to google him. I found this interesting article about the first Sotheby's auction in the early nineties. The only thing that confused me was that this article calls Gary's younger brother Kent. I thought the younger Carter's name was Lane. Kent? Lane?.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-11-24-me-239-story.html

[waaaghboss]

On 8/31/2021 at 9:12 PM, lou_fine said:

Well, since Chuckles only paid about 10 cents for each one of the Church books, let me be the first, but definitely not the only one that I would have gladly paid double digit multiples more that what Chuck had paid for his Church books.  

I wonder which is worth more, today, if totaled together.  The mile high collection or the mile high 2 collection.  I'm kinda leaning towards the warehouse find.

[jimjum12]

On 8/31/2021 at 10:48 PM, lou_fine said:

You can't be serious here.  

I bet you that 100% of the comic book dealers would have stepped right up and paid more than the 10 cents cover price that Chuck ended up paying if they had seen the books beforehand.  Are you really saying that bidders wouldn't have bid more than 10 cents per copy on those books if it was in a live auction format sale, even back then.  

Of course, the Church family probably thought their prayers had been answered because they managed to find some hippie kid who was foolish enough to pay full brand new cover prices (i.e $2,000 for an estimated 20,000 books) for what they probably thought were nothing more than old used smelly comic books.  

My point was I don't think many, if anyone would have paid more than a hundred thousand at the time. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Straw-Man]

On 8/31/2021 at 2:31 PM, eschnit said:

I expect to end up with a handful of Promise books myself, and I don’t own any Okajima.  Obviously the Okajima story has had time to build in life over the years, whereas this one is brand new.  But for my taste, the story doesn’t remotely rival Okajima.  It’s an interesting story, but I think we do a disservice to it to compare it to Okajima.  Of the 60 pedigrees, the Promise may be top 10 most interesting, certainly in the top half.  Whereas Okajima is clearly top 2 or 3, and to most #1.

 

i'm the rare geek who finds the okajima underwhelming; i lean more to the quality of books within peds as opposed to their backstory, so it's nowhere near "top 2 or 3" for me.

[eschnit]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:13 AM, Straw-Man said:

i'm the rare geek who finds the okajima underwhelming; i lean more to the quality of books within peds as opposed to their backstory, so it's nowhere near "top 2 or 3" for me.

I was referencing the story.  In terms of quality, yeah, no doubt, Okajima is closer to bottom 2 or 3.

[sfcityduck]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:39 AM, eschnit said:

I was referencing the story.  In terms of quality, yeah, no doubt, Okajima is closer to bottom 2 or 3.

For me there are two kinds of stories: (1) the backstory on the OO who put the collection together and (2) the backstory on the discovery and significance of the collection after it was discovered.  The former are what matter most to me and the backstory on the dealer discovery doesn't enhance the value of a comic for me - with the notable exception of the MH story because in terms of comic book history that collection is pivotal.

So for the OO backstory, I agree Okajima is the best.

But, for some of these other OO stories, I think we have to wait for the full and actual truth to come out before we can really gauge them.  

[batman_fan]

On 8/28/2021 at 11:24 AM, buttock said:

The only possible justification for that grade is that most of what looks like creasing is actually just linear color loss from the printing process (seen that a few times).  I'm not saying that it is or isn't, but that's the only way I can see them reasonably giving that book an 8.5.  Otherwise... 

Regardless, it's not an attractive book for the grade.  

That is what I assume it is, printing defect. And yes, not the prettiest book in the box. 

[buttock]

On 9/1/2021 at 9:13 AM, Straw-Man said:

i'm the rare geek who finds the okajima underwhelming; i lean more to the quality of books within peds as opposed to their backstory, so it's nowhere near "top 2 or 3" for me.

I think the Okajima story is great, but not 4000% markup great.  Couple hundred bucks extra, sure.  

[jimbo_7071]

On 5/25/2021 at 1:18 AM, Aman619 said:

Okajimas do have a compelling back story. Compared to the rest, they have real world consequences (although Reillys and Promise do too).  As for the little girl, a surprising aspect Ive learned about life in the cams is that it was generational in impact.  By that I mean that older Japanese Americans were hurt most. Adults too. Having been born here as Americans, and only lived here, it was bewildering and humiliating.  However for the kids it was a different story. Especially younger kids.  This was just their life. You had to be older and lost your way of life, and house and possessions to have been deeply impacted. The kids were just like all kids, finding things to do, playing, and they had their families with them.  When talk of reparations comes up within the Japanese communities, it is also generational.  The people who were kids then just don't feel so slighted, and want to move on while their parents are still angry!  This puts a strain on them because the elders are dying out and if the kids don't care to fight for justice (their homes were forfeited! businesses gone) justice will never come.

anyway, Great story: so watch the movies, read the books and bios.  Whats it got to do with which copy to add yo your collection?  

Though it is cool to have Pedigree copies. I left out one factor in my decision making, I may pay a higher Pedigree price if Im confident that OTHERS will want to as well when Im ready to let them go.  But, in the first years of CGC, the grade was a leveling of Pedigree importance.  Before independent grading, you bought the Pedigree copy over a no name copy because it had added significance = value in the hobby.  When no name copies showed up in higher grades, they were more desirable.  Theres been somewhat of a resurgence in Pedigree copies, even lesser grades.. which is a surprising show of strength!

 

It is a little surprising. I don't care about pedigrees too much aside from wanting to acquire one example of each GA pedigree (possibly excluding the ones with mediocre page quality, like Denver).

I would always rather have a non-ped if the pages are nicer or if the page quality is the same and the grade is higher.

[jimbo_7071]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:39 AM, Robot Man said:

It’s all about her eyes... Yes, there is also the obvious but that look does it for me...

Re. PL17: I wish you hadn't said that. The more I gaze into her eyes, the more I'm tempted to add that book to my want list—which could prove costly.

[Timely]

On 9/1/2021 at 4:33 PM, buttock said:

I think the Okajima story is great, but not 4000% markup great.  Couple hundred bucks extra, sure.  

What if we found out the story was 100% made up and completely false? Would it negate the value of the comic? You still have a fresh 9.6 book? That aspect hasn’t changed!

Everybody loves a good story, but what is a story worth? After all, it’s only a story! Sometimes the comics speak for themselves. Sometimes that’s enough. A story isn’t needed or required to sell the comics.

[jimbo_7071]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:33 AM, Timely said:

What if we found out the story was 100% made up and completely false? Would it negate the value of the comic? You still have a fresh 9.6 book? That aspect hasn’t changed!

Everybody loves a good story, but what is a story worth? After all, it’s only a story! Sometimes the comics speak for themselves. Sometimes that’s enough. A story isn’t needed or required to sell the comics.

For me, the Okajima story is good, but not good enough to make up for the writing on the cover. I may be one of the only collectors who would rather have a NON-camp example for my collection.