They're Still Out There! 22 22

[lou_fine]

4 minutes ago, Bronty said:

don't bid on this book.   Simple.

I get you are concerned that other books may be overgraded, but there's big big scans, so look for books where no such obvious judgement calls were made and leave this copy for a label chaser.

 

Yes, like I said.....................buy the book, not the label.  

Then again, wouldn't it be better if CGC simply apllied their undisclosed grading standards on a much more consistent basis, as opposed to having soft grading or giving benefit of the doubt (Whether intentionally or sub-conciously) because it's a preferred customer while having tough tight grading on their regular customers. 

Bit surprised that you seem to be okay with this as you say that we should bid according to the book and simply ignore the grade.  especially since I thought that what we were paying CGC for in the first place in terms of 3rd party independent and hopefully consistent grading.    

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, Funnybooks said:

1 hour ago, adamstrange said:

Large GA Pedigrees:

Church, Crippen, Crowley, Dell FC, Harvey FC

I think it's Top 10 but probably not Top 5.

Question:

I was always on the fence when it came to FC and whether they held the same weight as OO...thoughts?

Definitely not in the eyes of CGC as although they might note tham as File Copy, they certainly don't come with the special pedigree labels.  

From a grading point of view, they also don't seem to give them the same benefit of the doubt, as clearly evident from this Dell File Copy here:  

This Dell File Copy here would definitely seem to present a lot nicer than that Subby 11 from the Promise Collection which ended up with a higher grade than this nicely presenting book here relative to its grade.    

 

57 minutes ago, namisgr said:

The Gaines file copies certainly.  In my experience with Silver Age, not so much for the Random House archives/Dell file copies.

Althugh I would agree with you in terms of the Random House and Harvey File copies from the Silver Age because these were really just part of a large warehouse find, I would definitely disagree with you in terms of the Dell File Copies from the late 30's and early 40's because these File Copies here were more unique/individual and clearly were not stored in a warehouse and from their minty fresh condition, most likely in an office storage environment.  

 

[ChillMan]

We love what we own.  The Communist Party is probably working to get us to like Marvel SA and more recent.  I think the best ever offered copy of 1st Superman went to the Middle East.  Probably for much more behind the scenes.

[lou_fine]

16 minutes ago, szav said:

32 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

CGC seemingly adjusting their undisclosed grading standards just for this collection

You may have missed the recent announcement that pressing related damage is now considered a ‘manufacturing’ defect.

Sadly, this is probably more closer to the truth than just a rumour or a funny joke.  

Especially since it seems that with the current grading team in place for the past several years and the newbies working in CCS (i.e. not Nelson who knows what he's doing here), they have seemingly been overlooking tell tale signature pressing defects coming from their in-house partner company and simply giving them a blind pass in terms of grading.    

So much for Borock's line that if books are not pressed properly in terms of leaving pressing defects, they will then be downgraded accordingly.  Or is this their new updated version of grading them accordingly?  

[lou_fine]

Maybe with all of these scans that we are now seeing from Heritage with the absolutely eye popping gorgeous books from this Promise Collection here, they should also have Lon provide us with the "before" picture of these books so that we can see what they looked like before they got squashed, graded, and slabbed.  

Can't wait to see what grade this beautiful book comes out at and whether they are going to "fix up" some of the obvious spine and corner issues with this book here, or simply choose to apply the soft and gentle soothing touches of their grading feather to this book here:    

[Funnybooks]

19 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Maybe with all of these scans that we are now seeing from Heritage with the absolutely eye popping gorgeous books from this Promise Collection here, they should also have Lon provide us with the "before" picture of these books so that we can see what they looked like before they got squashed, graded, and slabbed.  

Can't wait to see what grade this beautiful book comes out at and whether they are going to "fix up" some of the obvious spine and corner issues with this book here, or simply choose to apply the soft and gentle soothing touches of their grading feather to this book here:    

what tear on that top spine corner...that's a spiderweb...Cgc 9.0

[MasterChief]

6 hours ago, DanCooper said:

I may be a little late to the game here, but MasterChief what do you mean by the "work done"?

I know you are the Master detective here on the boards, but are grader notes now revealing "work" that CGC (or CCS?) does on a book if in a non-resto/Universal holder/grade? (this is the 9.4 copy from the "Promise Collection", right?)

Thanks

 

Dean and I happened to be discussing the collection right after a few of the teaser photos dropped in the thread. He asked my opinion as to whether or not the books had been manipulated. I mentioned that they appeared to be untouched as pressable defects were apparent here and there. I went on to say that the images looked to be pre-CGC submission, perhaps taken when the collection was examined. That thought became obvious with the reveal of the certified Catman #28. While we only have one example to go on so far for comparison purposes, many realize that the likelihood of the collection, in whole or in part, getting the treatment is a bonafide reality.

The doctoring of the Catman #28 is particularly interesting, in my opinion. The structure of that book has been altered from its original conditional state as discovered, to that of a perceived appearance post-print production book from the 40s. As mentioned, the book perked my curiosity so much so I sprung for the grader notes. There is no mention of work performed on the book in the notes. Just the typical obtuse annotations. The exception being, the "pedigree coding" (whatever that means) for the distributor mark.

[Funnybooks]

[ChillMan]

Collectors who love having a cool item pay for the grade-number on the label.

Shifty characters in It for the money go to the auction houses and find-out which comics can be upgraded after the auction.  They are there examining every single book pre-auction....thousands, taking 10 straight hours or more.  I throw out some theories....but this I promise is a fact.

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

don't bid on this book.   Simple.

I get you are concerned that other books may be overgraded, but there's big big scans, so look for books where no such obvious judgement calls were made and leave this copy for a label chaser.

 

That's fine but if certain submitters get preferential grading, ie higher grades, that would make a mockery of CGC's impartial grading standards.  It would be nice to know some things aren't for sale.

[vheflin]

This Cap 36 looks like it got some work

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/a-written-description-will-be-available-soon/p/7244-175079.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Preview-ThisAuction-120115

[Bronty]

22 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

That's fine but if certain submitters get preferential grading, ie higher grades, that would make a mockery of CGC's impartial grading standards.  It would be nice to know some things aren't for sale.

True, but we don't have the book in front of us, right.   I don't think its a leap to imagine its a mirror smooth surface and glossy and beautiful.    While I think 7.0 is more on the mark, I can see how that type of book is a tough call on how to grade.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

1 hour ago, MasterChief said:

Dean and I happened to be discussing the collection right after a few of the teaser photos dropped in the thread. He asked my opinion as to whether or not the books had been manipulated. I mentioned that they appeared to be untouched as pressable defects were apparent here and there. I went on to say that the images looked to be pre-CGC submission, perhaps taken when the collection was examined. That thought became obvious with the reveal of the certified Catman #28. While we only have one example to go on so far for comparison purposes, many realize that the likelihood of the collection, in whole or in part, getting the treatment is a bonafide reality.

The doctoring of the Catman #28 is particularly interesting, in my opinion. The structure of that book has been altered from its original conditional state as discovered, to that of a perceived appearance post-print production book from the 40s. As mentioned, the book perked my curiosity so much so I sprung for the grader notes. There is no mention of work performed on the book in the notes. Just the typical obtuse annotations. The exception being, the "pedigree coding" (whatever that means) for the distributor mark.

Thank you @MasterChief.  This is important information.

This certainly dampens my enthusiasm

Edited April 30, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[linmoth]

Amazing that almost 20 years later some are just realizing that there is preferential treatment to grading. Before pressing became so prevalent no one had a clue except for a privileged few how to increase the grades on books! I submitted many silver age pedigree books only to see them receive higher grades. I spoke to Borock about it and he was mum! I thought when CGC was established it was based on a true unbiased rating. Oh well!

[Rip]

Two things, various distributor markings/dates etc are commonly called "coding" used to discuss the markings on Pedigree books. It's a long accepted term used where certain identifiable patterns shows up. Sometimes the markings are called codes. Years ago Pat Kochanek (SP?) had great articles discussing this more in detail.

So for example Mile High used a coding of C,D and M. C is usually on Fiction House Nedor or Dell. M is on 1950's comics. D is on DC, Timely, Fawcett, Quality, Fox and Centaur comics. The letters may represent different distributors. It looks like the promise collection commonly uses the letter "K", then uses the month over day.

Staples indenting in an out of the books aren't necessarily indictive of pressing or disassembly. Sometimes its easy to just shift the pages.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Rip

[MrBedrock]

10 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Thank you @MasterChief.  This is important information.

This certainly dampens my enthusiasm

Let's see if I can further thin out out the bidding pool.

8 hours ago, Timely said:

Assume every book in this collection will be pressed!

[innocuous]

2 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Hey you.  Where you been MrBedrock

Yes, I'm sorry but it does dampen my enthusiasm.  You can say I still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but it makes a difference to me.

 Whelp, back to the SA forum for me.

[DanCooper]

49 minutes ago, linmoth said:

Amazing that almost 20 years later some are just realizing that there is preferential treatment to grading. Before pressing became so prevalent no one had a clue except for a privileged few how to increase the grades on books! I submitted many silver age pedigree books only to see them receive higher grades. I spoke to Borock about it and he was mum! I thought when CGC was established it was based on a true unbiased rating. Oh well!

Slightly OT, but linmoth, it is good to see you posting again on these boards after a long absence!

I know you were an integral part of the Western Penn and Pacific Coast pedigrees when they were brought into the market back in the day.

Welcome back! (still waiting to hear your Western Penn origin story! )

 

[lou_fine]

59 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

1 hour ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Thank you @MasterChief.  This is important information.

This certainly dampens my enthusiasm

Let's see if I can further thin out out the bidding pool.

9 hours ago, Timely said:

Assume every book in this collection will be pressed!

Now, I fully understand why Jason Ewert's been too busy to return any of my phone calls for the past month or so, with his voicemail saying that he won't be able to return any calls until June of this year at the earliest.  

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

True, but we don't have the book in front of us, right.   I don't think its a leap to imagine its a mirror smooth surface and glossy and beautiful.    While I think 7.0 is more on the mark, I can see how that type of book is a tough call on how to grade.

Agreed, there's no way to know.