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Promises Collection Dagar #15 9.6 with rusty staples?
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Started by ttecwaf,

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batman_fan

batman_fan

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On 8/25/2021 at 2:18 PM, ttecwaf said:

It looks like there is rust on the lower staple on the Promise Dagar #15 grade 9.6.  While the book at first glance looks great I thought rusty staples prevented a grade that high.  Just curious.  Thanks. 

5F581AA0-6532-4BB9-883B-157ECDD1039B.jpeg

It quits asking questions or it gets the hose again.

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Robot Man

Robot Man

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Crazy. Just another example of either a gift grade or turning a blind eye. This is pretty minimal to some of what has been posted. The Gangsters Can’t Win in another thread was the worst yet. 

In all fairness. I’m sure there are many that are either spot on or even a few that actually look better than the grades given. 

Is this just something happening with this specific collection? Anybody else getting back any gift grades? 

I also heard about and saw a couple books sent back to customers that were obvious and in one case severely damaged in the encapsulation process. (CGC did make it good to them). I don’t for the life of me know how they made it out of quality control.

As good as they are overall and have been, I have started to wonder though. 

Currently, they are rediciously behind in service and quality. And yet, they have plans to expand into new services. Such as these “signings” an obvious money grab that has got to be slowing down their day to day grading services. 

Makes me wonder what their new owners have in store...

Are their direct competitor so bad? The few books I have of theirs seem fine. I have yet to submit anything to them but might consider it depending on turnaround time.

Sometimes competition is good and necessary. 

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jimjum12

jimjum12

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On 8/25/2021 at 7:06 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

That's not rust. It's chocolate cake icing.

... are you sure it's not just the crust of the biscuit ... or perhaps, the apostrophe ? GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

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woowoo

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Posted
On 8/25/2021 at 1:18 PM, ttecwaf said:

It looks like there is rust on the lower staple on the Promise Dagar #15 grade 9.6.  While the book at first glance looks great I thought rusty staples prevented a grade that high.  Just curious.  Thanks. 

5F581AA0-6532-4BB9-883B-157ECDD1039B.jpeg

It's a manufacturing defect :preach: I promise you that :devil:

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Cat-Man_America

Cat-Man_America

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Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2021 at 3:18 PM, ttecwaf said:

It looks like there is rust on the lower staple on the Promise Dagar #15 grade 9.6.  While the book at first glance looks great I thought rusty staples prevented a grade that high.  Just curious.  Thanks. 

5F581AA0-6532-4BB9-883B-157ECDD1039B.jpeg

Naw, as reputations go this only comes up to the level of tarnish. ;)

Edited by Cat-Man_America
Emoji added (sarcasm subtlety removal)
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CK-1

CK-1

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I've seen plenty of CGC slabs with very slight (to even complete on 1 staple) staple rust grade as high as a 9.8.

I don't agree with CGC and their grading practices prevent me from buying 9.8s without good photos, but this seems deliberate rather than an error by CGC.

If you own some 9.6-9.8s from either major grading company I bet you'd be surprised at a lot of them taking a closer look.

Also, I'm pretty uncertain on whether the bottom portion you circled is rust or some other form of discoloration.

Edited by CK-1
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MrBedrock

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I saw a 9.something book where the staples were completely rusted out and still oxidizing. This occurred after the book was graded and was a result of poor storage in a safe that induced condensation inside of the holder.

Maybe CGC's and/or Heritage's safes are faulty and causing this rust? Lord knows the grades already show an inclination towards ineptness. What if this type of staple rust is starting to happen on all of the books in the collection? Can you imagine how damaging rust on every one of the books in this collection would be?

I, for one, could never recommend that anyone bid on any of these books until there is a sufficient explanation.

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Cat-Man_America

Cat-Man_America

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Posted (edited)
On 8/29/2021 at 4:46 PM, MrBedrock said:

I saw a 9.something book where the staples were completely rusted out and still oxidizing. This occurred after the book was graded and was a result of poor storage in a safe that induced condensation inside of the holder.

Maybe CGC's and/or Heritage's safes are faulty and causing this rust? Lord knows the grades already show an inclination towards ineptness. What if this type of staple rust is starting to happen on all of the books in the collection? Can you imagine how damaging rust on every one of the books in this collection would be?

I, for one, could never recommend that anyone bid on any of these books until there is a sufficient explanation.

I'm ratcheting back following books from this collection.  I've become wary of false Promises. ;)

I do love the sarcasm in your post though.   ...That's why I'm expecting to see you crack out your Promise books and spray them with Rust-Oleum any day now!   

Your comment about safe storage and rust is a legit topic.  There are safes, ...and there are not-so-safes.  Long term collecting of high grade books requires proper storage,  This is certainly a serious issue that's worthy of a separate thread.

As for Promise books being stored for any length of time before they hit the auction block, that seems unlikely.  I'd be surprised if the CGC graders had time to eat regularly and change clothes in the rush to get these books out the door and into the loving arms of the auction house.  My suspicion is that these staples looked exactly the same two or three years ago as they do today ...irrespective of grading.

Below is an article some dude wrote about this pedigree:

Spoiler


While there've been no accusations of fraud or malicious behavior, questions raised about the success of the Promise Collection Pedigree and the noble story of the two brothers Korean War vow persist: 

1) "It's all about the Benjamins, baby" theory. This viewpoint holds that the prestige (bragging rights) of this newly anointed pedigree with it's heartfelt story of patriotism and brotherly devotion will fuel it's success over any negative publicity generated by those questioning the grades, hype and appearances of manipulation of the process.

2) The short decisive war theory. Both the auction house (HA) and the grading service (the CGC) rake in profits with a blitzkrieg approach to marketing while sidestepping criticism and appearances of conflicted interest or questions about the legitimacy of the pedigree.

3) Job promotions and consolidation of power theory. As this pedigree received broad public attention a number of events were set in motion including the buy-out of the CGC, Matt Nelson's promotion to President of the CGC and the ascension of Heritage to a position of being undisputed leader of comic auctioneers.  By controlling the messaging surrounding the origins of the pedigree it allows both parties to weather criticism. HA has weathered criticism before. This is sort of like going all-in on a weak poker hand and bluffing. The theory being that if you have enough chips to back up your play and hold on long enough the critics will all fold. 

All of these hypothetical situations have been debated on-line and/or discussed privately among collectors. None of the criticisms leveled at HA and the CGC are provable regardless of whether any are true. Trying to look at this situation objectively, strictly from an observer's standpoint, just the suspicion of hanky-panky in the grading and marketing of this pedigree isn't good for the hobby as it calls into question consistency and fairness of grading practices.  

One other troubling aspect not touched on are remarks that leave the impression of overzealousness in regard to the grading and promotion of this collection. The pride at unearthing this Holy Grail is entirely understandable, but for some the Promise Collection has been projected as being a next generation Edgar Church find ...as if that somehow justifies the higher grades attributed. Dear graders, I know the Edgar Church pedigree. Edgar Church's comics are friends of mine. The Promise Collection is no Edgar Church pedigree. 

There's a simpler theory about this collection which may warrant consideration: Some folks at HA and the CGC may have gotten a bit carried away with wanting to make this collection and pedigree into a "statement" resulting in too many loose grades that draw attention to themselves. If the grades hadn't been so stratospherically high and easily contestable through comparison with other prestigious pedigree books, this mess might've flown under the radar, but GA books with obvious handling flaws given the status of highest grade can't be easily swept under the carpet.

Joseph Heller would've probably appreciated the no-win scenario posed by grade jockeying of pedigreed books to achieve "best" when scrupulous grading won't generate as much commercial buzz. Publicity rules, and this pedigree appears to have gotten the royal treatment. Regardless of where the truth falls the gamble paid off judging from the results of the first Heritage Auction of Promise books. Some bidders may have been mesmerized by the grade which is why the standard caution to collectors is to always buy the book, not the grade.  That's another way of saying gauge the book's appearance, not the grader's opinion of it.  
 

:cheers:

Edited by Cat-Man_America
good ale!
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