How rare are modern newsstand editions? 5 5

[valiantman]

If anything, I was gentle.

I'm sorry the wet noodles stung.

[MetalPSI]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:58 PM, valiantman said:

If anything, I was gentle.

I'm sorry the wet noodles stung.

If only 

You do you, I know my limits

[valiantman]

You telegraphed playing the victim card about two pages ago.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/404350/someone-who-instigates-conflict-and-then-plays-the-victim

Uno.

Edited January 29, 2022 by valiantman

[MetalPSI]

On 1/28/2022 at 11:03 PM, valiantman said:

You telegraphed playing the victim card about two pages ago.

Uno.

Yeah.....thats the type of thing people like me live with

 

I get it, you have no empathy

Just for the record, I state what I do to be informative, not for any other reason

The reality is, I'm here because I'm at a hotel and its 2305 and people are drunk and rowdy outside my door, and I have to be up at 0545 to go to work. 

So instead of losing my head, I'm here.

However, I've found a battle instead of a distraction, which was what I was hoping to avoid 

No, I'm not a victim, just someone who has difficulty with these things

I still feel you and paqart are shifting narrative with your "discussions" but I have no back up for it, especially right now

I also concede to just get away from this conversation 

[MetalPSI]

On 1/28/2022 at 11:03 PM, valiantman said:

You telegraphed playing the victim card about two pages ago.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/404350/someone-who-instigates-conflict-and-then-plays-the-victim

Uno.

Just saw your link and have to reiterate, in no way I wanted to instigate conflict

I get that enough from other people

Its the last thing I wanted, and it really bothers me you see it like that.

But what you see isn't up to me

[valiantman]

You entered this topic by dismissing the 12 pages of discussion and data presented for more than a month as the same as everyone saying "I don't know".

Then you told someone what to do and say.

Then you argued with me about whether incomplete data is allowed, when incomplete data is the only kind of data there is.

Then you declared I am biased... towards what? The verifiable results of the data? What does that even mean?

Then you started the personal insults, "arrogant", "a Richard", "jerk".

When were you innocent in any way for the content and reactions to your posts?

We all must have missed it.

Edited January 29, 2022 by valiantman

[Get Marwood & I]

@paqart @valiantman

I enjoy reading your posts Gentleman so please carry on. If we responded to the question "How rare are modern newsstand editions?" with the simple answer "We can never know", and left it at that, then this question, and many like it, would never get explored. For me, there's nothing wrong with gathering data, speculating and using what information is available to shape a picture. Often, those discussions lead to new information coming to light, as others join in. This is a discussion forum and people like to discuss the things they like as they would in any face to face gathering - casually, and without having every word fact checked. It's a discussion.

In life, I find that the person who arrives and tells a group in a pub in mid-discussion that they are all misguided and therefore stupid isn't going to do well in life, socially. As long as people don't state unfounded assumptions as facts - and I don't see anyone doing that here - and are clear as to the parameters they are using, and their limitations, what is the harm in speculating and discussing this aspect of the hobby? Why does it generate such bitterness and vitriol from some quarters when these things are discussed? If every discussion about any comic that has a sister version in circulation is an attempt by those discussing it to 'pimp that book up' for financial gain, as is often accused, then by those rules there can be no discussion about anything. 

Next week, I'm going to post a journal entry about a set of price variants which have had virtually zero online attention. I'll position the facts - what exists - and then present a theory as to why they exist. I won't be able to state that theory as a fact, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling and it will hopefully prompt a discussion. It will be a discussion about that thing we are all supposed to love here - comics. By all means get passionate if you disagree on a particular point or theory - but all this 'you're an idiot' stuff is surely a massive turn off and a barrier to exploration and participation. Personally, I'd like to see more "I see what you are saying, but have you considered this..." and less "You're an idiot with an agenda" in these discussions. 

[MetalPSI]

On 1/28/2022 at 11:29 PM, valiantman said:

You entered this topic by dismissing the 12 pages of discussion and data presented for more than a month as the same as everyone saying "I don't know".

Then you told someone what to do and say.

Then you argued with me about whether incomplete data is allowed, when incomplete data is the only kind of data there is.

Then you declared I am biased... towards what? The verifiable results of the data? What does that even mean?

Then you started the personal insults, "arrogant", "a Richard", "jerk".

When were you innocent in any way for the content and reactions to your posts?

We all must have missed it.

No, I thought I was engaging and instead I wandered into a battle, a mistake that won't be repeated 

At least the insults were personal and not about your intellectual  capacity

[paqart]

On 1/29/2022 at 5:03 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

@paqart @valiantman

but all this 'you're an idiot' stuff is surely a massive turn off and a barrier to exploration and participation. Personally, I'd like to see more "I see what you are saying, but have you considered this..." and less "You're an idiot with an agenda" in these discussions. 

I have some empirical evidence germane to this. A few years ago, I joined these forums for the first time. The reason I joined is that I had recently heard about newsstand editions and wanted more information. An Internet search for the term "newsstand edition" led here, to the "how much of a premium are we paying for newsstand editions?" thread. I joined the discussion, and in so doing, exposed the fact that I had read Ben Noble's blog on the subject. Ben, by the way, is a fantastic advocate for the hobby of collecting comics. His articles have had the effect, at least in my case, of making me curious about comics in a completely new way.

Almost as soon as I referenced Noble's site, the vitriol came out. It was so unpleasant that I left the CGC site and decided to favor CBCS with my business. I also did not sign up and pay the fee to become a CGC member as I had intended to do. It wasn't until over a year later that I reconsidered, thanks to some posts from you that I found in a different Internet search regarding price variants, that I returned. At that time, I signed up, paid the fee, and sent 75 comics and 40 Pokémon cards to CGC. So, the "vitriol" lost CGC a customer for a little over a year, but the spirit of friendly and open discussion brought me back.

Last, I'll point out that calling someone "stupid" because one is ignorant is a fascinating irony.

PS: I had just started working on a way to estimate the newsstand destruction rate when I got some work handed to me but I haven't forgotten about it.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:35 PM, paqart said:

I have some empirical evidence germane to this. A few years ago, I joined these forums for the first time. The reason I joined is that I had recently heard about newsstand editions and wanted more information. An Internet search for the term "newsstand edition" led here, to the "how much of a premium are we paying for newsstand editions?" thread. I joined the discussion, and in so doing, exposed the fact that I had read Ben Noble's blog on the subject. Ben, by the way, is a fantastic advocate for the hobby of collecting comics. His articles have had the effect, at least in my case, of making me curious about comics in a completely new way.

Almost as soon as I referenced Noble's site, the vitriol came out. It was so unpleasant that I left the CGC site and decided to favor CBCS with my business. I also did not sign up and pay the fee to become a CGC member as I had intended to do. It wasn't until over a year later that I reconsidered, thanks to some posts from you that I found in a different Internet search regarding price variants, that I returned. At that time, I signed up, paid the fee, and sent 75 comics and 40 Pokémon cards to CGC. So, the "vitriol" lost CGC a customer for a little over a year, but the spirit of friendly and open discussion brought me back.

Last, I'll point out that calling someone "stupid" because one is ignorant is a fascinating irony.

PS: I had just started working on a way to estimate the newsstand destruction rate when I got some work handed to me but I haven't forgotten about it.

I've collaborated with Ben on a few things and he's a decent, passionate comic enthusiast. I won't speak directly for him, but he and a few others like him don't post here, as I understand it, because of the personal attacks that a small number perpetuate. Just by mentioning his name we are likely to encourage a further attack here. The majority of collectors who share my passions don't post here which is a great shame as the software is excellent for sharing, presenting and discussing information. Unfortunately, the owners and moderators have never got to grips with the tone here and they let the kinds of verbal assaults we see in threads like these stand without penalty, especially when they are directed at relative newcomers who have the audacity to present firm opinions. It's always been the same here though, and it's why - in my view - a great number of genuine, knowledgeable enthusiasts and collectors who would otherwise post steer clear of the place. Quite a few of the people who were brought here by my work have told me privately that they didn't like the atmosphere and have left. CGC have always turned a blind eye to the 'hazing' of newcomers and that is one of the reasons I think the place is winding down. The older ones are moving on and the new ones are rarely allowed to get their foot in the door. I'm glad you have stuck it out though, as you clearly have a lot to offer. 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/29/2022 at 4:03 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

As long as people don't state unfounded assumptions as facts - and I don't see anyone doing that here - and are clear as to the parameters they are using, and their limitations, what is the harm in speculating and discussing this aspect of the hobby? Why does it generate such bitterness and vitriol from some quarters when these things are discussed? If every discussion about any comic that has a sister version in circulation is an attempt by those discussing it to 'pimp that book up' for financial gain, as is often accused, then by those rules there can be no discussion about anything.

But people do make unfounded assumptions and produce irrelevant numbers in an attempt to bolster their ridiculous arguments.

Did you ever say there were only 50 copies of each of the 99-00 Newsstand Price Variants? No. Did you ever claim they were 1:100 variants? No. That's why that thread went well, with whatever contributions people were able to make. This discussion is going quite differently due to things like the following examples:

On 1/28/2022 at 9:18 PM, valiantman said:

You always bring zero to the table and complain about others who have put thousands of things out for everyone to share.

Outright lie. Ridiculous attack.

On 1/28/2022 at 8:09 PM, valiantman said:

Newsstand buyers don't protect issues as well, they don't save issues as often, and they rarely buy more than one copy

Unfounded assumption backed up by absolutely nothing, and stated differently below.

On 1/24/2022 at 9:58 AM, valiantman said:

Direct editions are likely to have been protected well 80% of the time, and perhaps 20% went to casual collectors who may have tossed/lost/damaged them through the years.

Newsstand editions are likely to have been protected well 20% of the time, and perhaps 80% went to casual collectors (or went unsold and got returned) which may have tossed/lost/damaged them through the years.

 

...

 

If you're talking about the end of the newsstand era (2000 to 2010s), the printed ratio could have been 95% direct and 5% newsstand (100% total for both).

As I explained earlier, the printed ratio could not have been that. It is literally impossible for an average issue. A handful of the most extreme outliers might have been close. A tiny bit of simple online research could have prevented such a ridiculous statement from being made, but researching things that are actually relevant to the topic isn't as fun as compiling irrelevant numbers.

[MetalPSI]

On 1/29/2022 at 3:03 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

@paqart @valiantman

I enjoy reading your posts Gentleman so please carry on. If we responded to the question "How rare are modern newsstand editions?" with the simple answer "We can never know", and left it at that, then this question, and many like it, would never get explored. For me, there's nothing wrong with gathering data, speculating and using what information is available to shape a picture. Often, those discussions lead to new information coming to light, as others join in. This is a discussion forum and people like to discuss the things they like as they would in any face to face gathering - casually, and without having every word fact checked. It's a discussion.

In life, I find that the person who arrives and tells a group in a pub in mid-discussion that they are all misguided and therefore stupid isn't going to do well in life, socially. As long as people don't state unfounded assumptions as facts - and I don't see anyone doing that here - and are clear as to the parameters they are using, and their limitations, what is the harm in speculating and discussing this aspect of the hobby? Why does it generate such bitterness and vitriol from some quarters when these things are discussed? If every discussion about any comic that has a sister version in circulation is an attempt by those discussing it to 'pimp that book up' for financial gain, as is often accused, then by those rules there can be no discussion about anything. 

Next week, I'm going to post a journal entry about a set of price variants which have had virtually zero online attention. I'll position the facts - what exists - and then present a theory as to why they exist. I won't be able to state that theory as a fact, but the circumstantial evidence is compelling and it will hopefully prompt a discussion. It will be a discussion about that thing we are all supposed to love here - comics. By all means get passionate if you disagree on a particular point or theory - but all this 'you're an idiot' stuff is surely a massive turn off and a barrier to exploration and participation. Personally, I'd like to see more "I see what you are saying, but have you considered this..." and less "You're an idiot with an agenda" in these discussions. 

If you are alluding to me stating "You're an insufficiently_thoughtful_person with an agenda" it applies more to you than paqart or valiantman 

I highly respected valiantman until now, and I am more than aware paqart is not an insufficiently_thoughtful_person 

[Lazyboy]

On 1/29/2022 at 9:58 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Unfortunately, the owners and moderators have never got to grips with the tone here and they let the kinds of verbal assaults we see in threads like these stand without penalty

Like Valiantman's repeated attacks on The Meta? That's what you mean, right?

[MetalPSI]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:22 PM, Lazyboy said:

Like Valiantman's repeated attacks on The Meta? That's what you mean, right?

2 pages of nothing but piling on

I absolutely called him a Richard and a jerk, and that's exactly what he'll be to me from here on out 

Had I known my ignorance is weaponized, I would have never ever engaged.

I merely thought I was approaching with an open mind and was ready to be corrected with examples I had misunderstood 

Instead I learned there is a lot more than bias on his part, it is agenda, as I have no reasoning for someone to be so condensending 

[valiantman]

@The Meta12 pages of posts before you arrived.  You dismissed them completely.  You can claim you were approaching with an open mind, but you dismissed the whole conversation as soon as you arrived.

Again, what is the bias?  The data points in one direction, every time, for years... and I am saying "the data points over here".  That's not bias.  If the data pointed elsewhere, I'd say so.

The "agenda" is to continually provide data, despite the number of people who pile on saying "we can't know" and "no one knows" and "it's all bias and agenda"... No, it's data.  It's always data. 

The data gives us a direction, year after year, and it's not bias or agenda to say so.

Edited January 29, 2022 by valiantman

[MetalPSI]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:20 PM, valiantman said:

@The Meta12 pages of posts before you arrived.  You dismissed them completely.  You can claim you were approaching with an open mind, but you dismissed the whole conversation as soon as you arrived.

Again, what is the bias?  The data points in one direction, every time, for years... and I am saying "the data points over here".  That's not bias.  If the data pointed elsewhere, I'd say so.

The "agenda" is to continually provide data, despite the number of people who pile on saying "we can't know" and "no one knows" and "it's all bias and agenda"... No, it's data.  It's always data. 

The data gives us a direction, year after year, and it's not bias or agenda to say so.

I didn't dismiss 12 pages, you assumed my questions were ignorant and then went on to dismiss me as such.

Then personal attacks and shenanigans forth with.

Its ok, I'm the victim here, and no further comments are needed.

I withdraw

 

[Brock]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:08 AM, The Meta said:

The reality is, I'm here because I'm at a hotel and its 2305 and people are drunk and rowdy outside my door

For a moment, I thought you were claiming to be a time traveller… I was going to ask for future data on newsstand distribution.

[MetalPSI]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:56 PM, Brock said:

For a moment, I thought you were claiming to be a time traveller… I was going to ask for future data on newsstand distribution.

Military time

 

[FlyingDonut]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:32 PM, paqart said:

On a whim, I just looked up sold copies of New Avengers #27 on eBay. Of the total 170 items that had a clear photo of the UPC box, 4 were newsstands. The ratio, therefore, is 1:42, or 2.4%. That is very close to @valiantman's estimate. I wouldn't be surprised that the ratio is closer to 1:50 but there weren't enough sold copies to determine if that was true.

There's a HUGE "yes but" here, however. Books being sold on eBay - for the most part - are being sold by comic book "collectors" of some sort, who bought them at comic stores. What is the term? Selection bias?

[FlyingDonut]

There also is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE selection bias here in that I believe people are conflating a ratio of "books available on eBay" with the ratio of books that were produced and sold. If there is a 4:167 ratio of newsstands to books available on eBay that does not mean that was the ratio of books produced and sold, and comic stores miss newsstands all the time. I'm not going to say which one it is, but there is a very large and successful store that misses newsstands on their online sales at least three or four times per show. I know this because I'm watching them and swooping in to buy them to flip. If those people - who are at the forefront of the marketplace - are missing them, others must be as well.

I have been in stores with hundreds of long boxes that have never been gone through because it isn't worth their time (yet) to do so because those are "modern" books - without question there will be newsstands in there because the books were sourced from closed bookstores. They're out there. People aren't looking for them, people don't care (yet), and the information that people are using is off.

And, just to be clear, do not use Benjamin Noble's "research" for anything. His information is empirically wrong.