How rare are modern newsstand editions? 6 6

[PeterPark]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:20 PM, paqart said:

Right. I still remember the day in 1984 when I was offered 10 copies of Love & Rockets #0, the black and white ashcan edition, for $10 apiece. If subsequent issues had been published the same way, the ashcans likely would have never appreciated in value. Because the Hernandez brothers switched to Fantagraphics and became popular there, the ashcans became very valuable.

I'm still waiting for the day my Dr. Andy #1 becomes a collector's item. It had a tiny print run in 1992 or so and it was the last comic I made until last year. Ironically, while the comic was a self-parody, I didn't intend to actually become a scientist with a PhD like the character in the comic. However, I did. To celebrate, I decided to make Dr. Andy #2. I have it all laid out but it isn't finished yet. I got stuck between having my wife pencil and ink it, or me. She is a great cartoonist but I think I'd be faster.

what'd you get the Ph.D. in?

[valiantman]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:36 PM, divad said:

I guess you skipped over this one. 

Let me give you an example of real life. I have a friend who is a collector. Like many private collectors, he is very personal about what he collects. He talks to almost no one about his collection or his collecting habits. He let it slip out one day in our often brief but frequent "conversations" that he figured he had quite a few more comics than I did (seeing my garage, which is about 75% of my collection.) He said he had more boxes than I did, but that all of his were long boxes - which puts his collection at about 90,000 or so comics (probably higher.) From our conversations, which frankly I enjoy very much, I have discovered he knows very little about what we here, call the "marketplace." I am sure that each of you know someone like this, as I have known several (as in many) eclectic collectors. How on Earth do you not acknowledge and account for these collectors and their collections?

How on Earth do you assume these invisible-to-the-market comics have any higher ratios of newsstand issues than any other subset of millions of comic books that can be seen for sale in public venues?

@paqart says the observed data has 1:100 newsstand-to-direct ratio.  You know a guy with 90,000 comics.  What are his newsstand-to-direct ratios? 

If you don't know, then you've only said that "more comics exist", which adds nothing to newsstand ratio discussion.

No one is saying there are only 12 newsstands for a particular book.  They're saying there are 12 newsstands for every 1,200 directs on that issue.

If the guy with 90,000 comics also has about 1:100 newsstand-to-direct ratio, you'd be confirming the data. 

What do you think "acknowledging and accounting for these collectors and their collections" would look like?  It would look like data.  Ratios.  So, whatchagot?

[valiantman]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:39 PM, valiantman said:

Yes, there will always be value in Ultimate Fallout #4 1:25 variant, that's what it was created to be from the day it was released. Because Ultimate Fallout #4 matters as a regular direct edition, it will matter as the publisher's intentional premium variant... but the fact that every copy of Ultimate Fallout #4 Newsstand (from the failing newsstand system in 2011) with a recorded sale has been a higher price than the same grade of the UF #4 variant at the time, to me, is simply amazing.

[divad]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:47 PM, valiantman said:

On 1/24/2022 at 7:24 PM, paqart said:

Finding zero copies as the price goes up indicates to me that these are simultaneously more desirable and less available.

Exactly.  Even a beater copy of Ultimate Fallout #4 Newsstand would now sell for $1,000+.  There are none available in any grade.  They exist, but the ratio to direct editions is ridiculously low.

Sheer stupidity . . .

[divad]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:56 PM, valiantman said:

Ratios. 

Is what you think you got.

[divad]

On 1/24/2022 at 7:42 PM, valiantman said:

I don't have access to the internet, but if you'll take a look at my vast holdings of newsstand editions, you'll see that I'm just an ordinary eccentric personality like you find in Anytown, USA.

 

Yeah, let's not forget to include those people in the calculations.

Keep driving the price of my newsstands up . . . while I go out and buy private collections from the people you say don't exist, and even if they did, they won't have the "ratio" of newsstands that you and paquart have deemed as fact. 

[valiantman]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:24 PM, divad said:

Keep driving the price of my newsstands up . . . while I go out and buy private collections from the people you say don't exist, and even if they did, they won't have the "ratio" of newsstands that you and paquart have deemed as fact. 

No one ever said "fact" in a way that can't be revised by more evidence. It's a fact that average snowfall in an area is some amount. A blizzard tomorrow is still possible, so, wait and see... but expect the long term average to be pretty much as it has been.

You keep finding and selling newsstands in a public venue and we'll keep updating the data. There is a word for that... oh yeah... science.

Edited January 25, 2022 by valiantman

[valiantman]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:18 PM, divad said:

On 1/24/2022 at 9:47 PM, valiantman said:

Even a beater copy of Ultimate Fallout #4 Newsstand would now sell for $1,000+.  There are none available in any grade.  They exist, but the ratio to direct editions is ridiculously low.

Sheer stupidity . . .

How many you got?

[paqart]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:55 PM, PeterPark said:

what'd you get the Ph.D. in?

This is my thesis, published as a book by Springer UK.

[paqart]

On 1/24/2022 at 10:56 PM, valiantman said:

How on Earth do you assume these invisible-to-the-market comics have any higher ratios of newsstand issues than any other subset of millions of comic books that can be seen for sale in public venues?

@paqart says the observed data has 1:100 newsstand-to-direct ratio.  You know a guy with 90,000 comics.  What are his newsstand-to-direct ratios? 

If you don't know, then you've only said that "more comics exist", which adds nothing to newsstand ratio discussion.

No one is saying there are only 12 newsstands for a particular book.  They're saying there are 12 newsstands for every 1,200 directs on that issue.

If the guy with 90,000 comics also has about 1:100 newsstand-to-direct ratio, you'd be confirming the data. 

What do you think "acknowledging and accounting for these collectors and their collections" would look like?  It would look like data.  Ratios.  So, whatchagot?

I have a friend (who owns a comic store) with around 150,000 comics. He says that he has a couple handfuls of modern newsstands out of all that and he's shown them all to me.

Edited January 25, 2022 by paqart

[paqart]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:36 PM, valiantman said:

How many you got?

Zero for me.

[paqart]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:18 PM, divad said:

Sheer stupidity . . .

To be fair, you are either claiming that @valiantman is mistaken about the details of these observations, he has dishonestly reported them, or has misunderstood the meaning of the observations. Or are you suggesting that due to a lack of mental acuity, he has nevertheless managed to accurately describe marketplace observations? Or perhaps he has misunderstood accurate marketplace observations due to lack of mental acuity? The bottom line is that what Valiantman has reported matches what I have seen as well. Assuming our observations are fairly represented here, on what basis do you presume we are "stupid" for reporting these observations and concluding that there is a higher level of rarity associated with this specific comic?

Do you viscerally object to the idea of a truly rare comic? Does it offend your sensibilities that a given comic might be rarer than your finely tuned mental powers have decided it must be? Are you so astute that we must accept your juvenile gibes as if they are well-reasoned justification for your position? I have to say, that's like accepting a handful of beans in exchange for one's integrity.

Edited January 25, 2022 by paqart

[divad]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:49 PM, paqart said:

I have a friend (who owns a comic store) with around 150,000 comics. He says that he has a couple handfuls of modern newsstands out of all that and he's shown them all to me.

They don't sell newsstands at comic book stores. Oy.

[divad]

On 1/24/2022 at 9:03 PM, paqart said:

To be fair, you are either claiming that @valiantman is mistaken about the details of these observations, he has dishonestly reported them, or has misunderstood the meaning of the observations. Or are you suggesting that due to a lack of mental acuity, he has nevertheless managed to accurately describe marketplace observations? Or perhaps he has misunderstood accurate marketplace observations due to lack of mental acuity? The bottom line is that what Valiantman has reported matches what I have seen as well. Assuming our observations are fairly represented here, on what basis do you presume we are "stupid" for reporting these observations and concluding that there is a higher level of rarity associated with this specific comic?

Do you viscerally object to the idea of a truly rare comic? Does it offend your sensibilities that a given comic might be rarer than your finely tuned mental powers have decided it must be? Are you so astute that we must accept your juvenile gibes as if they are well-reasoned justification for your position? I have to say, that's like accepting a handful of beans in exchange for one's integrity.

What offends me, is that you take two paragraphs to say nothing. Must be quite a book.

[divad]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:36 PM, valiantman said:

How many you got?

Now it's about weenie wagging? Sorry if I offended you to the point you would go there.

[valiantman]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:40 AM, divad said:

Now it's about weenie wagging? Sorry if I offended you to the point you would go there.

I was prepared to add the data point for how many more Ultimate Fallout #4 Newsstands can be accounted to the public knowledge. You acted like you don't believe the ratios and had evidence. It now sounds like you want to be recorded as a zero. Don't worry, data doesn't get embarrassed.

Edited January 25, 2022 by valiantman

[valiantman]

"Looking at all these public sales for years, there's a consistently low ratio of newsstand books for issues like Ultimate Fallout #4, and the UF #4 newsstands are selling for very high amounts."

That's stupid.

"What's stupid about it? The ratios?"

What about people who have lots of comics?

"Do their comics change the ratios?"

You don't know what anyone has.

"Well, how many do you have?"

I didn't know it was a contest.

"That sounds like a 'none' to me, so the ratios might be even lower. Thanks for your input."

But people buy my other books, tho.

"Yes, that's true.  I'm so happy for you."

Now everyone can see how right I was about... uh... something.

"Sure they can, champ."

Edited January 25, 2022 by valiantman

[Lazyboy]

On 1/24/2022 at 11:03 PM, paqart said:

The bottom line is that what Valiantman has reported matches what I have seen as well.

Because you're both basically just looking at feeBay.

feeBay is not the market, and it sure as hell isn't the world.

[valiantman]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:28 AM, Lazyboy said:

Because you're both basically just looking at feeBay.

feeBay is not the market, and it sure as hell isn't the world.

Are there 100+ sales somewhere else to add to the 170 paqart found on eBay?  More data is good. Where is it? 

[paqart]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:36 AM, divad said:

They don't sell newsstands at comic book stores. Oy.

No, but he buys collection every week. I should clarify this answer though. When he says he has "a handful", he means "at any given time". He does sell them, sometimes to me. On some of those occasions, it is more than a handful. Over the past few years, I have purchased about 60-70 newsstand editions from him. Most were from the 80's. One group of 20 were early issues of Spawn from the 90's. I passed on a group of about 25 newsstands from the early 2000's because the titles weren't interesting to me. He bought about 50 newsstands from me after I bought around 200 copies of the same 7-8 comics. These do not, however, stay in his shop. As he said to me on one occasion, "my business requires that I sell comics as fast as I can, even if it isn't for full market value. As long as I always get more than I paid, I'm making money." This is the same friend who personally observed a private sale of a newsstand Hulk #1 (2008) for $3,000 to a collector in NYC.

Hoards vary considerably in value. I once saw the interior of Bob Sidebottom's warehouse behind his tiny shop in San Jose. Boxes of comics were stacked almost as high as the 14'-16' ceiling. The room had to be around 2500-3500sf, and almost every inch was covered with boxes of comics. One of those boxes happened to be lying open. It was an almost full distributor's box of Hulk #1's (1962). The person who showed this to me said he also had similar boxes for all of the main Marvel #1's (FF, Avengers, X-Men, ASM) not to mention much more. All came from a purchase of old stock from a defunct string of newsstands. That hoard was the most impressive I've ever seen or heard of.

Another hoard, also in San Jose, also from a newsstand, filled a garage. The guy who owned it got the comics from a newsstand. His brother was selling them. They were a range of maybe 500 issues from around 1968-1969, and around 10-30 copies of each, though some were either unique or I failed to find their dupes. They had one copy of Aquaman #1 that I bought, and about 20-30 copies each of Iron Man #1, Sub-Mariner #1, and Iron Man & Sub-Mariner#1. My favorite comics from that group were the Neal Adams Detective and Batman comics. At the time, the garage hoard was considerably less valuable than the Sidebottom hoard. Actually, that is still true. However, most of the comics in the garage hoard were nearly worthless at the time but have appreciated well since then. 

These things do exist but until they hit the marketplace, they have no impact. Also, do you think that people who have these things are going to flood the market, assuming they can? I know Sidebottom didn't, and that was when his hoard wasn't worth as much as it is now. I was sworn to secrecy about what I saw there that day, because Sidebottom didn't want it to be widely known that he could release 200 mint copies of FF #1 at any time. Instead, he sold one at a time, for the then high price of $500 a copy, and pretended that the copy on his wall was always the same unsold copy.

Edited January 25, 2022 by paqart