Scarest DC key in the silver age? 3 3

[1950's war comics]

On 2/14/2022 at 8:10 PM, innocuous said:

If those are your copies, Congrats!

thanks ! took me four years to put the set together

[MusterMark]

On 2/13/2022 at 6:08 AM, 1950's war comics said:

the Title of this thread is SCAREST ?? (scarcest) key , not most valuable

Maybe the OP actually meant "SCARIEST", and this entire thread has been going in the wrong direction ....

[Readcomix]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:48 PM, gadzukes said:

I vote for OAAW 83 

Sooooo….. it’s NOT scarce! You’re just hoarding ‘em all! 

Uh….could you give me a heads-up before you flood the market one day? 

Seriously, that is the sweetest multiples pic I recall seeing on here, IMO. 

[gadzukes]

On 2/14/2022 at 10:43 PM, Readcomix said:

Sooooo….. it’s NOT scarce! You’re just hoarding ‘em all! 

Uh….could you give me a heads-up before you flood the market one day? 

Seriously, that is the sweetest multiples pic I recall seeing on here, IMO. 

I want more.  I'll stop at 10 copies.

[OtherEric]

On 2/14/2022 at 11:54 AM, F For Fake said:

How does Adventure 247 stack up?  As has been said, I don't think any of them are truly scarce, but it's definitely not one that I see often.

I think that's more a function that Legion fans tend to be a little obsessive, even relative to other comic collectors, so there are more locked up in long term collections than an actual scarcity of the book relative to other DC Keys.  At the very least, I'm aware of more Legion collectors with complete runs than most other series that go that far back.

[Topnotchman]

On 2/13/2022 at 8:08 AM, 1950's war comics said:

the Title of this thread is SCAREST ?? (scarcest) key , not most valuable

here is the latest CGC census numbers for blue label

1 sugar and spike    31   copies, with the highest graded 8.0

2. Jimmy Olsen #1  136   copies, with the highest graded 8.5

3. Showcase #6  178 copies with 9 copies grading 8.0 and above, 3 in 9.0

4. Our Army at War #83  180 copies with a 9.0 as the highest graded

 

it's not even close which is the "scarcest" key

I wouldn't hold that much stock in CGC census vs surviving copies.  The first ten Showcases would all be considered scarce overall, keys like 4, 6, 8, 9 have higher submission levels primarily on the higher value and more collector interest, the #6, #8, #9 are often sold raw in fair to vg due to its easy to grade and lower value.  Showcase 4 will have significantly higher submissions in low grade compared to the other Showcases and Our Army at War #83.  Census numbers are going to be artificially high with any higher value Silver and Bronze book due to resubmitting the same copy and not turning in labels.  Every year from 1954 which is JO #1 to 1959 overall will get a little easier to find surviving copies for any DC long running title.  Sugar and Spike #1 I've found to be less on the market compared to the Superhero, although there are only 5 CGC recorded sales over $1,000.00 regardless of condition in 22 years.  I've owned three copies and still have one in my collection. 

[10centcomics]

Is there really any need to debate this? If we just cross-reference Overstreet's top SA DC books with CGC census counts... don't we get our answer or close enough? I understand others have pointed out caveats/limitations of using CGC Census but it still gives us a general idea. 

Title	#	CGC Census
Showcase	4	533
Brave and the Bold	28	1371
Showcase	22	1217
Flash	105	744
Action Comics	242	535
Adventure Comics	247	485
Action Comics	252	1087
Justice League of America	1	1465
Our Army at War	83	193
Showcase	8	301
Green Lantern	1	1258
Showcase	17	307
Batman	121	765
Showcase	9	222
Lois Lane	1	270
Showcase	6	197
Showcase	13	221
Showcase	14	253
Our Army at War	81	173
Flash	106	385
Brave and the Bold	25	283
Flash	123	1174

If we want to include 1955 keys then we have Tec 225 (299 copies) and Adventure 210 (158 copies).

So indeed among the top-level SA DC keys, it seems Showcase 4, Action 242 and Adventure 247 are somewhat scarce around ~500 copies each.

Slightly further down the list, the scarcest books appear to be Our Army at War 83 and other early Showcases.

Although very scarce, I don't think most collectors consider Sugar and Spike 1 a "DC Key." 

 

[tth2]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:55 PM, 10centcomics said:

If we just cross-reference Overstreet's top SA DC books with CGC census counts... don't we get our answer or close enough?

Thanks for putting the table together, very helpful!  

On 2/16/2022 at 2:55 PM, 10centcomics said:

So indeed among the top-level SA DC keys, it seems Showcase 4, Action 242 and Adventure 247 are somewhat scarce around ~500 copies each

500 copies is not "scarce" or even "somewhat scarce".  I wouldn't even consider 100 copies to be "scarce".  

Plus, if your table shows only the slabbed copies, then we can extrapolate that there must be many more raw copies out there, further undermining any argument that any of these books are scarce.

On 2/16/2022 at 2:55 PM, 10centcomics said:

Although very scarce, I don't think most collectors consider Sugar and Spike 1 a "DC Key." 

 

[Kevin.J]

On 2/16/2022 at 6:55 AM, 10centcomics said:

Is there really any need to debate this? If we just cross-reference Overstreet's top SA DC books with CGC census counts... don't we get our answer or close enough? I understand others have pointed out caveats/limitations of using CGC Census but it still gives us a general idea. 

 

Title	#	CGC Census
Showcase	4	533
Brave and the Bold	28	1371
Showcase	22	1217
Flash	105	744
Action Comics	242	535
Adventure Comics	247	485
Action Comics	252	1087
Justice League of America	1	1465
Our Army at War	83	193
Showcase	8	301
Green Lantern	1	1258
Showcase	17	307
Batman	121	765
Showcase	9	222
Lois Lane	1	270
Showcase	6	197
Showcase	13	221
Showcase	14	253
Our Army at War	81	173
Flash	106	385
Brave and the Bold	25	283
Flash	123	1174

If we want to include 1955 keys then we have Tec 225 (299 copies) and Adventure 210 (158 copies).

So indeed among the top-level SA DC keys, it seems Showcase 4, Action 242 and Adventure 247 are somewhat scarce around ~500 copies each.

Slightly further down the list, the scarcest books appear to be Our Army at War 83 and other early Showcases.

Although very scarce, I don't think most collectors consider Sugar and Spike 1 a "DC Key." 

 

I have 21 of the 22 comics listed, only 4 are graded, most of the people I know who have silver age collections do not own many graded books, I don't think any of these are scarce, just expensive these days, I know you say its only a general idea but I dont think we can have any idea what raw books are out there.

[bronze johnny]

On 2/16/2022 at 1:55 AM, 10centcomics said:

Is there really any need to debate this? If we just cross-reference Overstreet's top SA DC books with CGC census counts... don't we get our answer or close enough? I understand others have pointed out caveats/limitations of using CGC Census but it still gives us a general idea. 

 

Title	#	CGC Census
Showcase	4	533
Brave and the Bold	28	1371
Showcase	22	1217
Flash	105	744
Action Comics	242	535
Adventure Comics	247	485
Action Comics	252	1087
Justice League of America	1	1465
Our Army at War	83	193
Showcase	8	301
Green Lantern	1	1258
Showcase	17	307
Batman	121	765
Showcase	9	222
Lois Lane	1	270
Showcase	6	197
Showcase	13	221
Showcase	14	253
Our Army at War	81	173
Flash	106	385
Brave and the Bold	25	283
Flash	123	1174

If we want to include 1955 keys then we have Tec 225 (299 copies) and Adventure 210 (158 copies).

So indeed among the top-level SA DC keys, it seems Showcase 4, Action 242 and Adventure 247 are somewhat scarce around ~500 copies each.

Slightly further down the list, the scarcest books appear to be Our Army at War 83 and other early Showcases.

Although very scarce, I don't think most collectors consider Sugar and Spike 1 a "DC Key." 

 

Thanks for posting this and adding table. Whether Sugar and Spike is a key or not doesn’t matter because it’s not a Silver Age book. The Silver Age is defined as the second great age of the superhero genre and an era of new creative concepts that included the Big 5 War Books led by Sgt. Rock and Marvel’s “flawed superhero.” The history demonstrates this resurgence of comic book sales and publications starting to occur after Showcase 4. Further evidence to support this rise occurs with the first Silver Age DC original and revamped characters to get their own titles: Lois Lane 1, Challies 1 (why SC 6 and SC 9 are significant keys in their own right in terms of it being the “first” Silver Age hero and in Lois’s case, “Superman family,” books to get their own title) followed by Flash 105 later in 1959 after a few more appearances in the Showcase title. There’s no historical basis behind the contention that books preceding Showcase 4 are Silver Age. They aren’t.

One book that no longer realism’s on that list is OAAW 81. There are war books like SSWS 84 and Sgt. Fury 1 that have superseded this Rock prototype in terms of historical importance and relative value.

Last but not least, it’s important to discuss these books in terms of “relative scarcity” if the issue is about whether these Silver Age books are “scarce.” My reading of the OP’s question is really one of relative scarcity not whether these books are overall scarce.

Edited February 16, 2022 by bronze johnny

[DanCooper]

Furthering the great Census chart breakdown that 10centcomics posted above, here are the high grade total numbers (grade 9.0 and above) for each book on the right:

Title # CGC Census         Showcase 4 533  8 -  9.6 (1)/ 9.4 (2)/ 9.2 (2)/ 9.0 (3) Brave and the Bold 28 1371 15 - 9.6 (1)/ 9.4 (1)/ 9.2 (3)/ 9.0 (10) Showcase 22 1217 6 -   9.4 (1)/ 9.2 (1)/ 9.0 (4)   Flash 105 744 13 - 9.4 (4)/ 9.2 (2)/ 9.0 (7)   Action Comics 242 535 1   - 9.0 (1)     Adventure Comics 247 485 5 -   9.6 (1)/ 9.4 (1)/ 9.2 (2)/ 9.0 (1) Action Comics 252 1087 13 - 9.2 (4)/ 9.0 (9)     Justice League of America 1 1465 16 - 9.6 (2)/ 9.4 (2)/ 9.2 (5)/ 9.0 (7) Our Army at War 83 193 1   - 9.0 (1)     Showcase 8 301 3 -   9.2 (2)/ 9.0 (1)     Green Lantern 1 1258 23 - 9.6 (1)/ 9.4 (2)/ 9.2 (9)/ 9.0 (11) Showcase 17 307 1 -   9.0 (1)     Batman 121 765 8 -   9.4 (1)/ 9.2 (2)/ 9.0 (5)   Showcase 9 222 2 -   9.2 (1)/ 9.0 (1)     Lois Lane 1 270 1 -   9.0 (1)     Showcase 6 197 3  -  9.0 (3)     Showcase 13 221 3  -  9.2 (1)/ 9.0 (2)     Showcase 14 253 4  -  9.2 (1)/ 9.0 (3)     Our Army at War 81 173 1  - 9.0 (1)       Flash 106 385 8  - 9.4 (1)/ 9.2 (1)/ 9.0 (6)   Brave and the Bold 25 283 2  - 9.2 (2)       Flash 123 1174 20 - 9.6 (1)/ 9.4 (7)/ 9.2 (8)/ 9.0 (4)

[shadroch]

On 2/14/2022 at 10:24 PM, OtherEric said:

I think that's more a function that Legion fans tend to be a little obsessive, even relative to other comic collectors, so there are more locked up in long term collections than an actual scarcity of the book relative to other DC Keys.  At the very least, I'm aware of more Legion collectors with complete runs than most other series that go that far back.

Thats because it is fairly easy to put together an early Legion run.  I have a run that includes all their Pre-Adventure 300 appearences, the Adventure and Action run and then The Superboy and Legion title up until it stasrted reprinting the Baxter run.  The only expensive book was the #247.   Silver Age Legions consist of less than 100 issues and almost all are dirt cheap.  Bronze Age Legions have no expensive issues, nor do the Copper Age series.

[plady69]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:55 PM, 10centcomics said:

Is there really any need to debate this? If we just cross-reference Overstreet's top SA DC books with CGC census counts... don't we get our answer or close enough? I understand others have pointed out caveats/limitations of using CGC Census but it still gives us a general idea. 

 

Title	#	CGC Census
Showcase	4	533
Brave and the Bold	28	1371
Showcase	22	1217
Flash	105	744
Action Comics	242	535
Adventure Comics	247	485
Action Comics	252	1087
Justice League of America	1	1465
Our Army at War	83	193
Showcase	8	301
Green Lantern	1	1258
Showcase	17	307
Batman	121	765
Showcase	9	222
Lois Lane	1	270
Showcase	6	197
Showcase	13	221
Showcase	14	253
Our Army at War	81	173
Flash	106	385
Brave and the Bold	25	283
Flash	123	1174

If we want to include 1955 keys then we have Tec 225 (299 copies) and Adventure 210 (158 copies).

So indeed among the top-level SA DC keys, it seems Showcase 4, Action 242 and Adventure 247 are somewhat scarce around ~500 copies each.

Slightly further down the list, the scarcest books appear to be Our Army at War 83 and other early Showcases.

Although very scarce, I don't think most collectors consider Sugar and Spike 1 a "DC Key." 

 

Well done, sir!  Facts beat speculation every time.  Looks like Showcase 6 is right there with 197 on the census. I would “speculate” that when it hit the newsstands it didn’t have characters on the cover recognizable to fans, so did not sell as well as Showcase 4.

[innocuous]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:55 PM, 10centcomics said:

Is there really any need to debate this?

Why else are we here? 

I mean, we could also cross-reference the census to GPA. Then, we could also pull the published run numbers and extrapolate another guesstimate. In addition, we can calculate the probability of how many mom's threw away which comics based on how naughty the kids were back in the day.

But all of that would be way off because when I look at my collection, I don't see a copy of OOAW#83. Wait a minute, that aligns with the data!

[tth2]

On 2/16/2022 at 10:45 PM, DanCooper said:

Furthering the great Census chart breakdown that 10centcomics posted above, here are the high grade total numbers (grade 9.0 and above) for each book on the right

Yup, high grade is a whole different story, although some of the keys are surprisingly abundant in high grade.  In particular, Showcase 4.

[shadroch]

If you are going to consider Sugar and Spike a key book, how is the Congo Bill series not key?   S&S1 may be rare, but how is it a key book?

[1950's war comics]

DC #1 Sugar and Spike is a key book for the same reason DC #1 Showcase is a key book 

[DanCooper]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:42 PM, 1950's war comics said:

DC #1 Sugar and Spike is a key book for the same reason DC #1 Showcase is a key book 

With all due respect (and I know you are a passionate collector!) Sugar and Spike #1 can't compare to Showcase #1.

Sugar and Spike #1 is a book. A great book that is, to a great series!

But, Showcase #1 spawned the Silver Age and is more than a book:

Showcase 4 (First Silver Age Flash and the beginning of an era/history/Silver Age)

Showcase 6 (Challengers and it's Kirby/Fantastic Four connections and eventual series)

Showcase 9 (Lois Lane and the main purpose of the Showcase series to create a new series)

Showcase 15 (Space Ranger and a mainstay in Tales of the Unexpected #40 forward)

Showcase 17 (Adam Strange and a mainstay in Mystery in Space #53 forward)

Showcase 22 (SA Green Lantern and gets his own series)

Showcase 27 (Sea Devils and get their own series)

Showcase 34 (SA Atom and gets his own series)

Showcase 37 (Metal Men and get their own series)

And the Showcase issues through the 12 cents/1960s era - Spectre, Creeper, Hawk & Dove, etc.

I don't think Sugar & Spike can compare, but this is what make conversations/debates on these here boards GREAT!

 

 

[tth2]

On 2/18/2022 at 2:46 AM, shadroch said:

S&S1 may be rare, but how is it a key book?

It's not.

Also, as has been correctly pointed out in this thread, it's not even SA.

Edited February 18, 2022 by tth2

[shadroch]

I don't have an issue with it being considered SA.  It came out around the time the Martian Manhunter and Captain Comet  debuted so its not much of a stretch. Calling it key is strange. It's certainly scarce, and expensive but key?