Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[rob_react]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:26 PM, Crowzilla said:

I don't think the owner has any interest in selling it or his Church Detective 27, but he has owned them 25+ years and with today's prices, who knows.

Last status was apparently not selling, but at that point I had like... 500 CGC graded books and now I have 5, so 🤷‍♂️

[VintageComics]

On 4/21/2022 at 5:22 PM, sfcityduck said:

I do agree that provenance, a term I view as more accurate than lineage or pedigree, can add to a comic's desirability.  There's something cool about owning a book that used to be owned by a comic industry figure, a notable comic collector or dealer, or even just someone who was famous for some reason (actor, musician, sports franchise owner, etc.). Knowing the chain of ownership can be cool.

I'm not sure it adds a ton of value.  It may be important to make sure that the title is clear.  I can envision a situation where there could be disputes in the future about clear title to valuable comics, if that's what you are cryptically alluding to.

Worth noting that all comics, not just "recognized" peds, have had an original owner at some point. Sometimes that can add value for a non-ped.  The highest grade comics I have found in the wild were duck comics all owned by a single guy.  He kept them in great shape.  Amazing things like high grade Four Colors and even WDC&S subscription variants which topped the census over file copies.  Not enough to ever be a pedigree and no really big books other than for duck collectors.  Just really great copies.  And all of the WDC&S had his name and address on them.  Which is cool because they came from my home state.  An affinity for residents of that state, but probably not others.  I keep my eye out for those books.  Adds value to me, probably not others. 

Just like how pleased I was the day I bought a nice copy of an early 60s Avengers which had the name of the owner of local LCS when I was growing up stamped in it.  We were on the West Coast, the comic was sold out of NY.  Just a fun thing that I would pay more for.  But, again, not of general value.

About 10 years ago I made the argument that expensive comics were becoming artifacts. We're well past that point now. 

Artifacts are much more desirable when they come with provenance. That's the reasoning. 

And now that we're in a realm where comics are expensive enough to fake, like fine art provenance will mean even more.

BTW, I found an original owner WDC&S collection from the 50's and 60s about 12 years ago. It was cool as heck. Nobody wanted them.

 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:06 PM, Robot Man said:

Indeed. But if it wern’t for Edgar Church, Chuck would have never found the collection…

So what do you want to call the Cosmic Aeroplane collection? 

C'mon, all pedigrees have an OO, only a few are named after the OO.  

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:36 PM, Robot Man said:

I go the other way on this one. It has never really been proven who the stamp on the back referred to. Bob Beerbong could never verify his story. Maybe @sfcityduckshould get on this one…

I have.  I cannot confirm the back story.  There are Reilly candidates, but none match the wartime valor angle.  

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:02 PM, VintageComics said:

 

BTW, I found an original owner WDC&S collection from the 50's and 60s about 12 years ago. It was cool as heck. Nobody wanted them.

 

To try to get acceptance for the WDC&S "subscription variants" I put a WDC&S 137 from my group up for auction.  Heritage gave it a nice write-up and it out performed the equally graded file copy by a 62% premium and the guide by a factor of about 14x - which is really good for a duck book. Never going to be called a pedigree, but to my way of thinking just as good:

Walt Disney's Comics and Stories #137 (Dell, 1952) CGC NM 9.4 White pages. A subscription copy in Near Mint is a remarkable find indeed! This has an address printed on the back and a different ad from the one that appeared on newsstand editions. Yet it has no subscription crease! Tied with one other copy (which only has off-white pages) for CGC's highest-grade for the issue, this is just the fourth certified copy that we have ever encountered, and is quite possibly the nicest copy of #137 in existence. Carl Barks provided the cover art, and a Donald Duck story and art for this impressive duck-filled issue. Huey, Dewey, and Louie appear. Overstreet 2018 NM- 9.2 value = $215. CGC census 11/18: 2 in 9.4, none higher.

This census topping copy from the same collection, however, under performed versus the file copies.  I guess some folks don't like date stamps:

The only two of those duck books I ever auctioned.  Taught me the value of a good write-up.

Edited April 22, 2022 by sfcityduck

[BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:22 PM, sfcityduck said:

I do agree that provenance, a term I view as more accurate than lineage or pedigree, can add to a comic's desirability.  There's something cool about owning a book that used to be owned by a comic industry figure, a notable comic collector or dealer, or even just someone who was famous for some reason (actor, musician, sports franchise owner, etc.). Knowing the chain of ownership can be cool.

I'm not sure it adds a ton of value.  It may be important to make sure that the title is clear.  I can envision a situation where there could be disputes in the future about clear title to valuable comics, if that's what you are cryptically alluding to.

Worth noting that all comics, not just "recognized" peds, have had an original owner at some point. Sometimes that can add value for a non-ped.  The highest grade comics I have found in the wild were duck comics all owned by a single guy.  He kept them in great shape.  Amazing things like high grade Four Colors and even WDC&S subscription variants which topped the census over file copies.  Not enough to ever be a pedigree and no really big books other than for duck collectors.  Just really great copies.  And all of the WDC&S had his name and address on them.  Which is cool because they came from my home state.  An affinity for residents of that state, but probably not others.  I keep my eye out for those books.  Adds value to me, probably not others. 

Just like how pleased I was the day I bought a nice copy of an early 60s Avengers which had the name of the owner of local LCS when I was growing up stamped in it.  We were on the West Coast, the comic was sold out of NY.  Just a fun thing that I would pay more for.  But, again, not of general value.

In college my brother sold his comics and I kept most of mine.  Years later I was buying old comics and found one he'd sold, with his initials marked where he'd put them many years earlier.  He sold it in Florida and I repurchased it in Los Angeles. 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:50 PM, szav said:

Interesting thought, and not without merit, that Chuck deserves more of the credit and his chosen name on the pedigree due to the impact his handling the find, marketing it etc, had  on the hobby.  Many here seem averse to calling it anything but the Church collection.

I don't want to call it jealousy or competitive feeling because I don't know Chuck and my experiences buying from him in the late 70s and early 80s were all very good.  But, let's face it, Chuck was the luckiest dealer in the history of comic collecting.  First, the MH/Church books and then the MH II books.  He hit the lottery twice.  And by the second time around he'd figured out how to hold on to the winnings and make it work long term.

If I were Chuck, I'd still own every book.  Chuck is basically the anti-BangZoom on that front.  But, if not for him, we'd not see the market we see today.  It's the Mile High collection to me and I can't think of a more apt name given that is what it has driven prices in this hobby to become!

Edited April 22, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Robot Man]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

So what do you want to call the Cosmic Aeroplane collection? 

C'mon, all pedigrees have an OO, only a few are named after the OO.  

I believe who ever originally put that collection was an unknown art teacher so I will go with the Cosmic Aeroplane collection. 

[Robot Man]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:22 PM, sfcityduck said:

I have.  I cannot confirm the back story.  There are Reilly candidates, but none match the wartime valor angle.  

So that is why I feel the San Francisco collection name is appropriate. 

[Robot Man]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:48 PM, sfcityduck said:

To try to get acceptance for the WDC&S "subscription variants" I put a WDC&S 137 from my group up for auction.  Heritage gave it a nice write-up and it out performed the equally graded file copy by a 62% premium and the guide by a factor of about 14x - which is really good for a duck book. Never going to be called a pedigree, but to my way of thinking just as good:

Walt Disney's Comics and Stories #137 (Dell, 1952) CGC NM 9.4 White pages. A subscription copy in Near Mint is a remarkable find indeed! This has an address printed on the back and a different ad from the one that appeared on newsstand editions. Yet it has no subscription crease! Tied with one other copy (which only has off-white pages) for CGC's highest-grade for the issue, this is just the fourth certified copy that we have ever encountered, and is quite possibly the nicest copy of #137 in existence. Carl Barks provided the cover art, and a Donald Duck story and art for this impressive duck-filled issue. Huey, Dewey, and Louie appear. Overstreet 2018 NM- 9.2 value = $215. CGC census 11/18: 2 in 9.4, none higher.

This census topping copy from the same collection, however, under performed versus the file copies.  I guess some folks don't like date stamps:

The only two of those duck books I ever auctioned.  Taught me the value of a good write-up.

Yes, a good story often brings a premium. Why else would the term “pedigree” have originated? 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:39 PM, Robot Man said:

Yes, a good story often brings a premium. Why else would the term “pedigree” have originated? 

I don't think Chuck was telling any stories about Edgar Church.  He was just selling incredible books at incredible premiums.  They sold themselves.  I'm guessing you saw them early in the process, so I feel potentially foolish having this discussion. The point was that the books were an indicia of quality for other books from the same collection.

Edited April 22, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Robot Man]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:07 PM, BLUECHIPCOLLECTIBLES said:

In college my brother sold his comics and I kept most of mine.  Years later I was buying old comics and found one he'd sold, with his initials marked where he'd put them many years earlier.  He sold it in Florida and I repurchased it in Los Angeles. 

I once found a few Big Little books at a flea market in LA. When I got home, I noticed a small Jim Payette name in pencil inside. I emailed him with a couple pictures. He said they belonged to his dad. He said he sold them and regretted it ever since. So I just sent them to him. Sometimes things finally end up where they belong…

[Robot Man]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:49 PM, sfcityduck said:

I don't think Chuck was telling any stories about Edgar Church.  He was just selling incredible books at incredible premiums.  They sold themselves.  I'm guessing you saw them early in the process, so I feel potentially foolish having this discussion. The point was that the books were an indicia of quality for other books from the same collection.

Yeah, I bought a huge pile of PCH, Crime and Seduction of the Innocent books from him when he debuted them at the Casual Con in Buena Park, CA.

He wanted double or triple guide at the time. People were outraged. But they were the most beautiful books any of us had ever seen. These books totally changed the meaning of “mint” at the time. His accounting of that day in his “Tales from the Database” on the collection was entirely accurate.

So maybe a split title? Edgar Church was responsible for accumulating and keeping it. Chuck might have been the luckiest guy in this hobby but he was a visionary. His handling of it set him up for life. One of the most remarkable stories this hobby has ever known.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:05 PM, Robot Man said:

 

So maybe a split title? Edgar Church was responsible for accumulating and keeping it. Chuck might have been the luckiest guy in this hobby but he was a visionary. His handling of it set him up for life. One of the most remarkable stories this hobby has ever known.

I'm good with a split title on the labels.  But, I think of them as Mile Highs.

[batman_fan]

On 4/21/2022 at 7:21 PM, sfcityduck said:

So what do you want to call the Cosmic Aeroplane collection? 

C'mon, all pedigrees have an OO, only a few are named after the OO.  

Way back when I lived in New Mexico, there was a comic book shop called "Doctor Weasels Comic Vault". Sure would be awesome for them to have found a big collection they named after their shop.

[lou_fine]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:56 PM, Crowzilla said:

On 4/21/2022 at 12:33 PM, G.A.tor said:

the larson action 1 was cleaned and has couple cut out, correct? (or am I mis remembering)

I believe you are thinking of the Larson AA16.

I just checked my copy of the Larson List and it was indeed the AA 16 with the coupon cut out from the centerfold and also notes water stain on the back cover, otherwise a VF copy.   

Wonder if it was Lamont himself who cut these coupons out as I was talking to Pat Kochanek down at one of the SD Con's and he mentioned that the More Fun 56 with the first Dr. Fate cover was an absolutely beautiful book, except that it had a coupon clipped out from one of the stories.  According to the Larson List, at least it looks like it is from the Radio Squad story and not from either the Spectre or Dr. Fate stories, but still.  

Any idea how much this drops the value of a book since I believe GA books with clipped coupons would end up in one of those Green Qualified slabs?  

Edited April 22, 2022 by lou_fine

[MattTheDuck]

On 4/22/2022 at 7:58 AM, szav said:

At least by the value of the coupon itself, sometimes slightly more.

I'm looking forward to being able to bid on the first auction of a slabbed "coupon cut from...."

[MasterChief]

This thread reminded me of the below...

Anyone know what became of this movie production?

 

[MrBedrock]

On 4/21/2022 at 10:32 PM, batman_fan said:

Way back when I lived in New Mexico, there was a comic book shop called "Doctor Weasels Comic Vault". Sure would be awesome for them to have found a big collection they named after their shop.

I hope to see Scott in San Diego this year!

[Transplant]

On 4/21/2022 at 10:32 PM, batman_fan said:

Way back when I lived in New Mexico, there was a comic book shop called "Doctor Weasels Comic Vault". Sure would be awesome for them to have found a big collection they named after their shop.

Pfft.  There are plenty of weasel collections out there already!