Church/MH Superman 1 record sale in January 7 7

[lou_fine]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

Allentown is not like some others on the story front.

No story per se relatively speaking, and yet I would still take the Allentown copy of the same book over all of the other pedigrees you listed, save possibly for the Edgar Church copy depending upon the 2 copies and their comparative grades.  

[Crowzilla]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:12 AM, sfcityduck said:

That's not a story at all.  That's just grades.  The 100 some odd Allentown books, a volume that originally was too small to be a ped, include some of the best quality books around.  But, there is zero story attached to that ped.  We don't know the OO, we don't know anything about the books other than its a small group of really nice books. Hell, the Rocket Copy of Action 1 has more of a story.  So do the Billy Wright books.  With Allentown we get nada, other than grades.

With Okajima we get a story of the Japanese internment.  With MH, we get a story of the creation of the whole ped concept and a revolution in the marketing of comics in this hobby.  With Gaines we get industry association.  With SF we get a story of parental heartbreak and WWII (not verified).  With Promise we get brotherly love.  Allentown is not like some others on the story front.

Sure we get a story with Allentown: a loving mother did the exact opposite of what 99% of all the other moms in the USA did, she saved her son's precious comic collection, and even did so in her own closet not another room in the house. That story hits instant recognition for most every collector who came home to find he no longer had a collection.  True, that just like 90% of pedigrees, I don't know the name of the original owner - but has anyone bothered to ask Payette what the owner's name was.

Okajima? Heck, something like 80% of the Okajima books were never even inside an internment camp. No story in those issues.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:21 PM, Crowzilla said:

 

Okajima? Heck, something like 80% of the Okajima books were never even inside an internment camp. No story in those issues.

Agree with that.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:20 PM, lou_fine said:

No story per se relatively speaking, and yet I would still take the Allentown copy of the same book over all of the other pedigrees you listed, save possibly for the Edgar Church copy depending upon the 2 copies and their comparative grades.  

Because they are great copies.  Not because they are deemed a ped.  You are buying the book.  But, if you see a copy that you deem as a better issue that is not a ped, you'd take that over the Allentown - because it is a better issue.  

DA has this right.  Side by side and take the top copy.  Ignore the pedigree if all that matters to you is "best."

[sfcityduck]

On 4/20/2022 at 8:22 PM, Crowzilla said:

How do we know the peds didn't/wouldn't pass them? I don't believe the KC copy of Action 1 has sold since it's original $1 million result a dozen years ago (and it's "only" an 8.0), and the Larson #1 has not sold since pre-CGC days. Truth is we have no idea what they would bring if they came back on the market. My guess is that if the Larson went to auction it would set a new record sales price for a comic.

 

To my eyes the Action 1 CGC 9.0 white is superior to the KC pedigree copy CGC 8.0 o/w.  If they both came up in the same auction, I'd expect the CGC 9.0 white to beat out the KC CGC 8.0 o/w.  No idea of what the Larson looks like.  If it is higher quality, I'd expect it to go higher, regardless of whether it is a pedigree or not.  Is that crazy?  I think not.

Edited April 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Crowzilla]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:25 AM, sfcityduck said:

DA has this right.  Side by side and take the top copy.  Ignore the pedigree if all that matters to you is "best."

Easy when the top copy is levels above the 2nd best, but didn't the Dentist also do something like turn down the Allentown Tec 29 just to keep the 28-40 Church run intact? Need to ask West the story again, I've already forgotten.

[lou_fine]

On 4/20/2022 at 9:31 PM, Crowzilla said:

Easy when the top copy is levels above the 2nd best, but didn't the Dentist also do something like turn down the Allentown Tec 29 just to keep the 28-40 Church run intact? Need to ask West the story again, I've already forgotten.

For your reading pleasure, the story is right here from the Allentown thread which has now been resurrected here:    

On 1/27/2021 at 10:49 AM, Crowzilla said:

So we all know this ended up with Eric ("not the actor") R. , but what is the story of why it isn't with the Dentist? Did he just not want to interrupt the Church run he has, or he didn't offer enough, or you didn't offer it? What's the story there?

 

On 1/27/2021 at 10:58 AM, Timely said:

The book was owned by dealer Joe V. when I saw it in SD.  He sold it to the dentist, letting go of the MH copy.

I offered to trade the Mile High run of Sensation Comics to get the book.

I flew out to the east coast and traded the 65 Sensation Mile Highs I had for the AT Detective 29, the All Flash MH run, 4 Action Comcs MH's & a nice size check (and with that check I bought the Adventure Comics #42 & #79 MH's from Pat Kochanek).

The dentist was able to get back the Det 29 MH.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by lou_fine

[rob_react]

 

On 4/21/2022 at 12:25 AM, sfcityduck said:

Because they are great copies.  Not because they are deemed a ped.  You are buying the book.  But, if you see a copy that you deem as a better issue that is not a ped, you'd take that over the Allentown - because it is a better issue.  

DA has this right.  Side by side and take the top copy.  Ignore the pedigree if all that matters to you is "best."

I wasn't buying million dollar books but I 1000% chose pedigree copies over copies with a higher number on the label when I had the chance and often paid more for a lower grade copy than I would for an "upgrade" with a higher number. And I wasn't paying 4x the GPA for a 9.4 (on books with dozens of higher graded examples) by myself. All those times I was bidding against other people who put the same stock in pedigree copies.

At this top level it's a different story since there are few options with some of these books so the relative importance of the pedigree is lessened somewhat but it's there somewhere. It's built into the hobby.  

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:54 AM, rob_react said:

 

I wasn't buying million dollar books but I 1000% chose pedigree copies over copies with a higher number on the label when I had the chance and often paid more for a lower grade copy than I would for an "upgrade" with a higher number. And I wasn't paying 4x the GPA for a 9.4 (on books with dozens of higher graded examples) by myself. All those times I was bidding against other people who put the same stock in pedigree copies.

At this top level it's a different story since there are few options with some of these books so the relative importance of the pedigree is lessened somewhat but it's there somewhere. It's built into the hobby.  

One of my favorite theme collections on this board is the pedigree type set.  I am not saying there is anything wrong or stupid about collecting pedigrees.  They are a cool artifact of fandom and some of the associations add desirability. I am saying that the original utility of the concept, to emphasize unusual high quality and provide comfort to remote buyers, is better provided by other means today.like HD pics, the internet, and third party grading. If third party grading, the internet, and HD pics had been a thing back in the 1960s, I do not think we would have the pedigree concept in the hobby today. There would have been no need. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

I have always thought this exchange from back in 2007 at the beginning of BangZoom's Golden Age Collection thread between "Learnedhand" and "Bangzoom" makes some very good points about pedigrees that still resonate today:

 

Quote

 

Posted March 19, 2007

   Quote

Agree that the books Bangzoom (BZ) has been displaying are impressive and that this is the best thread I’ve encountered in a long while (positive and dazzling!). And yes, I would like to own some of them. But pedigree status? In my opinion, not at this point. As one of Jon Berk’s arguments in his article indicates (with which I agree), a pedigree is not just a bunch of high-grade OO books (and one doesn’t lobby to have a collection receive pedigree status). These factors are simply indicators of an impressive collection. And, these factors can propel a collection to pedigree status.

 

Mark Wilson said it well when he offered the Rockford collection. After consulting with Overstreet, Geppi, and others about what consistutes pedigree status, he concluded that it is a function of market acceptance – meaning the collection is regarded by the hobby as something special and, due to this, people are willing to pay more for these books (irrespective of grade) than they would for the same books in the same grades from nondescript sources. And “willing to pay more” relates to what people are willing to pay in secondary market sales. If the collection is revered as special, resale prices will reflect this. Unfortunately, two factors help cloud the issue:

 

First, dealers offering new collections to the market at over-Guide initial asking prices and dubbing them to be (named) pedigrees. Sorry, this is simply creative marketing. Second, CGC dictating what collections deserve pedigree status. Again, this is the tail attempting to wag the dog. Call a cache of books a “collection” or “pedigree,” call it “Fred.” Affix a label with a collection name to the slab (“From the Collection of Nicholas Cage,” etc.). All are irrelevant to anybody with common sense or that’s been in the hobby longer than CGC. Isn’t this why so many so-called pedigrees or named collections routinely sell for no more than their same-grade nondescript counterparts? Clearly, the market knows what collections are special, irrespective of dealer marketing or grading company opinions.

 

In the case of the BZ books, from what I’ve seen, many of the books seem very nice. But do we know there really are 1,000 books? That it’s OO? That they are unrestored? That more books grade like the Adventure #40 than the Peps? Looking at the collection in the most favorable light, let’s assume what seems to be the case – that it is an OO collection, all are unrestored, there are more than a handful of key/important books, and the vast majority are in better-than-VF. Even assuming all this, none have been offered for sale and, more importantly, there are no secondary market sales from which to gauge market acceptance. Frankly, call it whatever you’d like, it has not achieved pedigree status. In fact, no collection ever obtained pedigree status while sitting in its respective OO’s home (or thereabouts). As such, the BZ collection might be worthy of pedigree status, but at this point, it’s no more than a pedigree-to-be, or a pedigree in hibernation.

 

In any event, I’m entranced by this thread and will now sit back and continue to enjoy the show.

 

Just for the record, I agree with much of the above.

I wish that kind of talk had never started. It seems that when collectors mention pedigree today, it's a quick jump to talking about money.

In theory, I like the idea of comic pedigrees, unfortunately in practice it becomes a little less fun for me. Probably 95% of my collection was purchased from original owners. The 'pedigrees' in my collection are not known by fandom, they're only known by me. When I look at most of my comics, I can spot the Kolmorgan, Foote, Starr, Clarke, and Gilchrist issues immediately. It makes the collecting a little more special.

Having said all of that, I do understand why there is so much ruckus about prices and potential appreciation. Collectors today spend so much money on their hobby, they'd be foolish not to give some thought to possible downsides in their investments.

Almost all my buys were 30-40 years ago. I think the most I ever paid for a single issue was $55 for Superman #1. It was purchased from a dealer who advertised it in the old fanzine, The Rocket's Blast. The market must have been slow back then because he gave me (13 years at the time) 30 days to raise the money.

Things have sure changed.

 

 

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by sfcityduck

[G.A.tor]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:22 PM, Crowzilla said:

How do we know the peds didn't/wouldn't pass them? I don't believe the KC copy of Action 1 has sold since it's original $1 million result a dozen years ago (and it's "only" an 8.0), and the Larson #1 has not sold since pre-CGC days. Truth is we have no idea what they would bring if they came back on the market. My guess is that if the Larson went to auction it would set a new record sales price for a comic.

And Allentown has a great story attached to it, the best known copies of Detective #27 and Captain America #1 came from it (as well as best known copies of Mysterymen #1, Special Edition #1, Detective #38, Wonderworld #3, and several others - quite possibly including the Batman #1). I think that is a great and remarkable story for a collection that would fit in a half box.

the larson action 1 was cleaned and has couple cut out, correct? (or am I mis remembering)

[Crowzilla]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:33 PM, G.A.tor said:

the larson action 1 was cleaned and has couple cut out, correct? (or am I mis remembering)

I believe you are thinking of the Larson AA16. The Larson Action 1 is the new 8.5 on the census I believe.

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 12:56 PM, Crowzilla said:

I believe you are thinking of the Larson AA16. The Larson Action 1 is the new 8.5 on the census I believe.

Interesting!  Wonder if we'll soon see if it comes to market.  

I guess I should also correct myself:  The top three graded and selling Action 1s are all non-peds 9.0 white, 9.0 cream to off-white, and 8.5 white.  Looking at them, I'd rank them 9.0 white, 8.5 white, 9.0 cream to off-white.

[Crowzilla]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:16 PM, sfcityduck said:

Interesting!  Wonder if we'll soon see if it comes to market. 

I don't think the owner has any interest in selling it or his Church Detective 27, but he has owned them 25+ years and with today's prices, who knows.

[VintageComics]

On 4/21/2022 at 9:46 AM, sfcityduck said:

One of my favorite theme collections on this board is the pedigree type set.  I am not saying there is anything wrong or stupid about collecting pedigrees.  They are a cool artifact of fandom and some of the associations add desirability. I am saying that the original utility of the concept, to emphasize unusual high quality and provide comfort to remote buyers, is better provided by other means today.like HD pics, the internet, and third party grading. If third party grading, the internet, and HD pics had been a thing back in the 1960s, I do not think we would have the pedigree concept in the hobby today. There would have been no need. 

Times change. People's perceptions change. The hobby changes. 

There's certainly no disadvantage to owning a pedigree and there likely is an advantage. 

And as prices continue to rise more and more focus on pedigree (not 'comic pedigree' but it's lineage) becomes more important.

People are still paying premiums for Church copies. I don't think it's because of the backstory,  I think it's because it's a piece of the greatest comic collection every assembled and preserved. 

I think those two reasons are the reasons people pay more for pedigree copies. 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 1:45 PM, VintageComics said:

 

People are still paying premiums for Church copies. I don't think it's because of the backstory,  I think it's because it's a piece of the greatest comic collection every assembled and preserved. 

 

I think that is the backstory for the Mile High pedigree.  The story of Edgar Church is somewhat depressing and uninspiring.  But the story of how Chuck Rozanski transformed comic collecting is a fascinating part of comic collecting history.  Which is why, for me, the Mile High pedigree will always be that, not Church.   

[sfcityduck]

On 4/21/2022 at 1:45 PM, VintageComics said:

 

And as prices continue to rise more and more focus on pedigree (not 'comic pedigree' but it's lineage) becomes more important.

 

I do agree that provenance, a term I view as more accurate than lineage or pedigree, can add to a comic's desirability.  There's something cool about owning a book that used to be owned by a comic industry figure, a notable comic collector or dealer, or even just someone who was famous for some reason (actor, musician, sports franchise owner, etc.). Knowing the chain of ownership can be cool.

I'm not sure it adds a ton of value.  It may be important to make sure that the title is clear.  I can envision a situation where there could be disputes in the future about clear title to valuable comics, if that's what you are cryptically alluding to.

Worth noting that all comics, not just "recognized" peds, have had an original owner at some point. Sometimes that can add value for a non-ped.  The highest grade comics I have found in the wild were duck comics all owned by a single guy.  He kept them in great shape.  Amazing things like high grade Four Colors and even WDC&S subscription variants which topped the census over file copies.  Not enough to ever be a pedigree and no really big books other than for duck collectors.  Just really great copies.  And all of the WDC&S had his name and address on them.  Which is cool because they came from my home state.  An affinity for residents of that state, but probably not others.  I keep my eye out for those books.  Adds value to me, probably not others. 

Just like how pleased I was the day I bought a nice copy of an early 60s Avengers which had the name of the owner of local LCS when I was growing up stamped in it.  We were on the West Coast, the comic was sold out of NY.  Just a fun thing that I would pay more for.  But, again, not of general value.

[Robot Man]

Indeed. But if it wern’t for Edgar Church, Chuck would have never found the collection…

[Primetime]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:22 PM, szav said:

Good thing both names go on the label I guess.  The parenthesed “(Mile High)” gets second billing.  Equal credit it seems good too.  I just think it was the first time I saw someone on these boards defend or prefer calling it the Mile High vs calling it the Church collection.  I’ve seen a few scoff when people calked them Mile High books.

Likewise, I prefer to say Reilly collection over San Francisco, since the books were never in SF and discovered across the bay in Piedmont…

[Robot Man]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:55 PM, Primetime said:

Likewise, I prefer to say Reilly collection over San Francisco, since the books were never in SF and discovered across the bay in Piedmont…

I go the other way on this one. It has never really been proven who the stamp on the back referred to. Bob Beerbong could never verify his story. Maybe @sfcityduckshould get on this one…