What is a water "tideline"? 5 5

[CHASEnBLUE]

So, I've been going back and forth with CGC to get an answer on this. These two comics received a 9.0 (all the others were 9.8), without any grader's notes - which just dumbfounds me because why the heck would I send in brand new, "9.0" comics? At any rate, after many email replies and calling CGC wanting to know exactly why these received a 9.0, I was told the rep talked with graders who said these two books, but none of the others in the group, have on the back cover what is called a water "tideline" and is supposedly a common or known problem with this issue.

Well, I can't find any information on a "water tideline" anywhere, for any comic or this issue in particular. I don't really see it on the back except maaayyyybe near the bottom. This is looking at the pictures attached and in person with various lighting and angles.

I have been prescreening and have had books graded for years with a high percentage of accuracy when it comes to sending in 9.8 and 9.6 books. I just don't see it here.

Have any of you had this problem? If so, is it a pressable issue? What causes it? 

I appreciate any input!

@Tony S @Galen130 @Funnybooks @onlyweaknesskryptonite

 

[Galen130]

I have heard that one before.  I'd have to see it though.

[Lightning55]

I can't pick it up on your photos, but a water tideline is an artifact created by moisture. 

It is referencing how the waves at the ocean leave tide lines as they receded at low tide, that ripple effect in the sand.  If water or moisture from humidity affects a comic, imperfections or additives in the paper can gather at the edge of the affected area.  When it dries, it leaves a jagged or wavy line at the furthest extent of the wet area, the line itself usually turning a light brown color. 

It may be present on interior pages, especially the centerfold, so not showing on the covers.

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

Do you have your books pressed? If so do you mind if I ask who?

[CHASEnBLUE]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:39 PM, Lightning55 said:

I can't pick it up on your photos, but a water tideline is an artifact created by moisture. 

It is referencing how the waves at the ocean leave tide lines as they receded at low tide, that ripple effect in the sand.  If water or moisture from humidity affects a comic, imperfections or additives in the paper can gather at the edge of the affected area.  When it dries, it leaves a jagged or wavy line at the furthest extent of the wet area, the line itself usually turning a light brown color. 

It may be present on interior pages, especially the centerfold, so not showing on the covers.

Thank you for the reply!

These are brand new comics and went straight to grading after my prescreen of several of the same issue. I can see that with older comics, but on newer comics is strange to me (3/2022). 

[CHASEnBLUE]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:39 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Do you have your books pressed? If so do you mind if I ask who?

These were brand spanking new. After my prescreen, I didn't see the need for a press...but obviously I missed this one big time! 

[CHASEnBLUE]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:39 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Do you have your books pressed? If so do you mind if I ask who?

Well, I used to go with CCS - then I found @Tony S and he works magic so just him. As a matter of fact, I have about 50-ish books to send him and need to get those out...

[Tony S]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:39 AM, Lightning55 said:

I can't pick it up on your photos, but a water tideline is an artifact created by moisture. 

It is referencing how the waves at the ocean leave tide lines as they receded at low tide, that ripple effect in the sand.  If water or moisture from humidity affects a comic, imperfections or additives in the paper can gather at the edge of the affected area.  When it dries, it leaves a jagged or wavy line at the furthest extent of the wet area, the line itself usually turning a light brown color. 

It may be present on interior pages, especially the centerfold, so not showing on the covers.

Given I have never run across a "water tideline" that CGC said was common and known issue on a particular book (and so a production issue?) I think Lightning55's description is accurate. 

But I would mention in the cleaning of books "tidelines" usually refers to the use of water or other solvents to spot clean a stain.  A tideline in this case is where the solvent has washed away the dirt in an area and you can have a dirty ring or outline where the paper is very clean where solvent cleaning took place but then left a line where the solvent stopped cleaning. So sort of a reverse stain.  The solution to these tidelines is being really good at feathering out the area cleaned and not leaving one - or where that just isn't possible removing and washing the entire cover. And it should be mentioned that solvent cleaning does risk a conserved label if CGC detects it and a note of restoration on the label at CBCS. I know there are those claiming to get away with it on grading company submissions (still get blue labels) but the grading companies have not said it's OK and accepted as they have with pressing and dry cleaning. 

For a production issue like described whether or not a press fixes it really will depend on if there is any discoloration or stain. A regular press won't fix that part. If the only flaw is  a bit of waviness to the edge, a press should fix it. 

[CHASEnBLUE]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:44 PM, Tony S said:

Given I have never run across a "water tideline" that CGC said was common and known issue on a particular book (and so a production issue?) I think Lightning55's description is accurate. 

But I would mention in the cleaning of books "tidelines" usually refers to the use of water or other solvents to spot clean a stain.  A tideline in this case is where the solvent has washed away the dirt in an area and you can have a dirty ring or outline where the paper is very clean where solvent cleaning took place but then left a line where the solvent stopped cleaning. So sort of a reverse stain.  The solution to these tidelines is being really good at feathering out the area cleaned and not leaving one - or where that just isn't possible removing and washing the entire cover. And it should be mentioned that solvent cleaning does risk a conserved label if CGC detects it and a note of restoration on the label at CBCS. I know there are those claiming to get away with it on grading company submissions (still get blue labels) but the grading companies have not said it's OK and accepted as they have with pressing and dry cleaning. 

For a production issue like described whether or not a press fixes it really will depend on if there is any discoloration or stain. A regular press won't fix that part. If the only flaw is  a bit of waviness to the edge, a press should fix it. 

Thank you Tony!

I will add these to the next batch(es)...we'll see once they are in hand what you think.  Being newly produced comics, this is perplexing to say the least...

Edited June 11, 2022 by CHASEnBLUE

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:48 AM, CHASEnBLUE said:

These were brand spanking new. After my prescreen, I didn't see the need for a press...but obviously I missed this one big time! 

On 6/11/2022 at 1:44 AM, Tony S said:

Given I have never run across a "water tideline" that CGC said was common and known issue on a particular book (and so a production issue?) I think Lightning55's description is accurate. 

But I would mention in the cleaning of books "tidelines" usually refers to the use of water or other solvents to spot clean a stain.  A tideline in this case is where the solvent has washed away the dirt in an area and you can have a dirty ring or outline where the paper is very clean where solvent cleaning took place but then left a line where the solvent stopped cleaning. So sort of a reverse stain.  The solution to these tidelines is being really good at feathering out the area cleaned and not leaving one - or where that just isn't possible removing and washing the entire cover. And it should be mentioned that solvent cleaning does risk a conserved label if CGC detects it and a note of restoration on the label at CBCS. I know there are those claiming to get away with it on grading company submissions (still get blue labels) but the grading companies have not said it's OK and accepted as they have with pressing and dry cleaning. 

For a production issue like described whether or not a press fixes it really will depend on if there is any discoloration or stain. A regular press won't fix that part. If the only flaw is  a bit of waviness to the edge, a press should fix it. 

This is why I asked if these were pressed. 

There have been some of these new "pressers" not really understanding how to work on books causing all kind of issues. Such as pebbling and tidelines.(many other issues as well) However as Tony describes that is certainly a way to get them. Another is amateur pressers using way too much humidity or even worse where some deconstruct books and attempt to wash them. 

Although if they say it is a production defect/known issue then it may have some from the printing process or the paper itself had some issues prior to print but still used.

Either way, That sucks. 

[Lightning55]

If it's a known issue, and that's the way the comic was produced, why are they downgrading it?  Other manufacturing defects are accepted, even in 9.8. 

Chipped corners (actually missing the corner tip) frequently get 9.8 if all else is good and they can tell it was not cut cleanly.

[zzutak]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:23 PM, CHASEnBLUE said:

Well, I can't find any information on a "water tideline" anywhere.  Have any of you had this problem?  If so, is it a pressable issue?  What causes it?

Moisture (or water) tidelines are caused by free moisture (or free water).  A portion of the book got wet.  Tidelines cannot be removed by pressing or non-restorative dry cleaning (although the rippling or cockling associated with the moisture/water damage can).  The appearance on the book mirrors the appearance on the ocean shore. 

 

[JollyComics]

How the heck did 3 months old books get the tidelines?  Tony said it's possible from the production but it's brand new.

[CHASEnBLUE]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:15 AM, JollyComics said:

How the heck did 3 months old books get the tidelines?  Tony said it's possible from the production but it's brand new.

Exactly!!!!!!

[Galen130]

On 6/11/2022 at 9:15 AM, JollyComics said:

How the heck did 3 months old books get the tidelines?  Tony said it's possible from the production but it's brand new.

 

On 6/11/2022 at 11:03 AM, CHASEnBLUE said:

Exactly!!!!!!

*cough* CGC!!! *cough, cough*

[JollyComics]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:49 AM, CHASEnBLUE said:

Well, I used to go with CCS - then I found @Tony S and he works magic so just him. As a matter of fact, I have about 50-ish books to send him and need to get those out...

 

On 6/11/2022 at 12:03 PM, CHASEnBLUE said:

Exactly!!!!!!

Hope the problem can be found soon.

[MR SigS]

On 6/11/2022 at 8:15 AM, JollyComics said:

How the heck did 3 months old books get the tidelines?  Tony said it's possible from the production but it's brand new.

I assume the paper they use arrive in large rolls. If they're saying it's common for this issue, I wonder if it's possible it was dripped on or similar before it went into process. Just a wild guess.

Edited June 11, 2022 by MR SigS

[JollyComics]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:17 PM, MR SigS said:

I assume the paper they use arrive in large rolls. If they're saying it's common for this issue, I wonder if it's possible it was dripped on or similar before it went into process. Just a wild guess.

My educated guess is that printer paper rolls were on the heavy weight paper on the pallet that caught water raining. The roll sucked up the water before the printing.  I have seen water seepage inside the truck that the paper rolls may suck up the water.  Water can be everywhere.

[CHASEnBLUE]

I'm thinking of cracking one of the cases open and go page by page to see what and where the heck this might be...

[JollyComics]

On 6/11/2022 at 3:33 PM, CHASEnBLUE said:

I'm thinking of cracking one of the cases open and go page by page to see what and where the heck this might be...

That is CGC's intention.  No grader note makes you think of cracking the case.