C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[mattn792]

On 8/9/2022 at 9:58 PM, justafan said:

And what brand is is that exactly?  Because I honestly don't know what shred of integrity behind their brand they have left after everything we've seen in the last 24 hours. 30 books submitted to CGC with 3 different unofficial Acetate covers stapled on by a third party that isn't the publisher or original distributor of the facsimile variant without the the publisher's awareness or approval get somehow authorized to be graded and not only come back all Universal Blue but all come back with at least 1 10.0 for each of the 3 different covers, at least 3 9.9s for each of the 3 different covers (4 9.9s for one of the covers), and at least 5 9.8's for all 3 different covers.  That's 3 10.0 out of a submission of 30 books, 10 9.9's out of 30 books, and 17 9.8's when the original facsimile edition without the acetate covers previously submitted never achieved a single 9.9 or higher?  That's a ratio of 1 in 10 came back a 10.0 on a 30 book submission. 1 in 3 came back a 9.9 on a 30 book submission. and a little more than 1 in 2 got a 9.8.  That is150% success rate for books that had been sitting around for half a year and then just had aftermarket modifications in the form of 2 additional staples, 4 new holes, added to the spine causing additional stress on the original cover spine and interior pages.    That just reeks of a quid pro quo assured manufactured grade distribution, an utter disregard for their own grading standards and disrespect for every CGC submitter and collector relying on a fair and impartial grading company.  An "incorrect choice" is the understatement of the year here.  They've depreciated every 10.0, 9.9, and 9.8 book ever graded prior to this and any thereafter.  At least in the past we could chalk some gift grades and over/under grades to an off day for the grader.  But this...this just looks like systemic fraud.

[ExNihilo]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:55 PM, CGC Mike said:

I would appreciate it if everyone would leave the competitors out of this discussion.  

Surely there has to be someone higher up who now sees the severity of the position CGC has taken.  There is universal condemnation from board members voicing their outrage over how the grading does not meet the standards set forth by CGC.  That's not something that just happens amongst a group of strangers.  Especially when a lot of those people have vocally stated that they have previously shown strong support for your business over your competitors.  Now you have these same internet strangers agreeing with said competitor in what they believe to be the proper standard.  As the saying goes, if you don't get along with one person, then they're the #2 hole.  If you don't get along with everyone, then you'e the #2 hole.  You've got a Marvel employee acknowledging that the book itself was not officially approved by them.  You have the Stray Dogs creator coming out and refuting your claim acknowledging that the two books are different situations: one vetted by the publisher and sent to the printers with a unique barcode, the other is not.  How can it be that somehow everyone has gotten this wrong EXCEPT for the parties involved and that have profited from it?  How does anyone look at the details and go "naw, the communities got this one wrong."?

The lines been crossed, but I would have so much more respect for CGC if they acknowledged an error was made and worked to fix it.  I've said this before in the QC thread, trust is built over time, but shattered in an instant.  Show your customers that the company still operates by a strict set of standards.

On 8/9/2022 at 7:32 PM, JC25427N said:

Not to take away from this incident, but this has been like the 4th last straw that I've seen in the past few months alone

And the next incident will be the last LAST straw.  Pinky swear.  

[Axelrod]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:59 PM, jaxcomics said:

I doubt it. Let's leave out the fact that CGC has a multi-billion dollar company and its legal team behind it, and let's actually assume that there was some sort of tangible agreement upfront, and let's assume that it could actually be enforced... there's still the fact that any kind of threats or "demand" to CGC to make them whole in the situation would - even if they get paid - likely result in them being banned from using CGCs services at all in the future. Pretty sure that in itself would be a death sentence for Black Flag...if this entire situation doesn't do it for them.

I mean, Black Flag wouldn't even be in the wrong here, assuming they had an assurance from CGC (which, let's be real, is the only way they make this book.  You don't do something like that just hoping it's going to get a Blue Label).  You're saying essentially "well, CGC can do whatever they want and Black Flag is too small to do anything about it.  And if Black Flag tries to complain, well, CGC can just crush them like a bug." 

Which, eh.  Doesn't seem likely to me.  

[jsilverjanet]

Sellers who sold on whatnot have violated their terms of service 

• Distribute or sell counterfeit, unauthorized, stolen, B-grade, or similar non-authentic Items or NFTs;

[troydivision1]

Just to clarify ALL these acetate books were graded on 7/28/22

Ghost Rider #1 'Zymotica Vs' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794001 / 9.8
4100794002 / 9.8
4100794003 / 10
4100794004 / 9.9
4100794005 / 9.9
4100794006 / 9.9
4100794007 / 9.8
4100794008 / 9.8
4100794009 / 9.8
4100794010 / 9.8

Deadpool Nerdy 30 #1 '99 Problems' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794011 / 9.8
4100794012 / 9.8
4100794013 / 9.8
4100794014 / 9.9
4100794015 / 9.8
4100794016 / 9.8
4100794017 / 9.9
4100794018 / 10
4100794019 / 9.9
4100794020 / 9.8

Ultimate Fallout: Facsimile Edition #4: 'In God We Trust' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794021 / 9.9
4100794022 / 9.9
4100794023 / 9.9
4100794024 / 9.9
4100794025 / 9.8
4100794026 / 10
4100794027 / 9.8
4100794028 / 9.8
4100794029 / 9.9
4100794030 / 9.8
 

[jaxcomics]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:10 PM, Axelrod said:

I mean, Black Flag wouldn't even be in the wrong here, assuming they had an assurance from CGC (which, let's be real, is the only way they make this book.  You don't do something like that just hoping it's going to get a Blue Label).  You're saying essentially "well, CGC can do whatever they want and Black Flag is too small to do anything about it.  And if Black Flag tries to complain, well, CGC can just crush them like a bug." 

Which, eh.  Doesn't seem likely to me.  

 I believe that either CGC is going to die on this hill and remain firm in their position, or they're going to reverse course, refund Black Flag for grading, and remove the books from the census. I would be absolutely floored if there's any kind of agreement in place that would make CGC culpable for "lost potential profits" on the part of Black Flag. This whole thing may be a big deal to Black Flag, but the amount of books graded (and any future business from Black Flag)  is a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to CGCs overall volume. That said...I'll concede that no one knows what kind of deal may have been hammered out. But I believe that Black Flag is far, far from the driver's seat in this, no matter what happens. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by jaxcomics

[justafan]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:44 PM, Axelrod said:

Legal angle that may not have been brought up yet, for all the people saying why can't CGC just own up to a mistake and unlist these, and maybe refund Black Flag the grading fees, etc.  

There is approximately a 0% chance that Black Flag commissioned this variant without getting an assurance from CGC ahead of time that it would get a Blue Label.  I'm not suggesting grade-buying or specific guarantees of any particular grades like some are also speculating, just, Blue Labels.  Were CGC to back out now and say, "sorry, actually we won't count these as Blue Labels anymore even though we told you we would," they would then be liable to Black Flag.  They'd have to pony up, not just the cost Black Flag paid for the commissioning and the grading, but for Black Flagg's lost profits too (and, as we have seen, these things are selling).   CGC is not going to go that much in the hole on this.  They just won't.   

BINGO! and this is the real reason these books went HOT.  Once it was proven and guaranteed that they could be graded by CGC as Universal and also achieve a 10 or 9.9 they became a sure commodity and why those IG/Whatnot/influencer folks were willing to go in and buy $10-16k worth.

However, I do disagree that they couldn't find a middle ground solution with this mess and go back on their word to Black Flag. Actually they could totally do just that and it wouldn't cost Black Flag anything he hasn't already lost in reputation from this past weekend.  Assuming they wait to announce it until after the Boston Comicon.  Once Black Flag sells out of his stock (assuming he isn't boycotted) he won't suffer any actual financial loss from CGC backing out.  In fact it may make him more money.  He's already got his graded copies that he intends to sell. It would make his copies the only graded copies available to sell and drive the value higher.  What does he care if no one else can get theirs graded after the Boston Comicon?  It makes his way more valuable with a census of only 10 for each different cover.

The fix is in and the game is rigged as we've suspected all along but now they've pretty much just rubbed it in our face. Not nice, CGC.  Not nice.

[I like pie]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:22 PM, Troy Division said:

Just to clarify ALL these acetate books were graded on 7/28/22

Ghost Rider #1 'Zymotica Vs' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794001 / 9.8
4100794002 / 9.8
4100794003 / 10
4100794004 / 9.9
4100794005 / 9.9
4100794006 / 9.9
4100794007 / 9.8
4100794008 / 9.8
4100794009 / 9.8
4100794010 / 9.8

Deadpool Nerdy 30 #1 '99 Problems' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794011 / 9.8
4100794012 / 9.8
4100794013 / 9.8
4100794014 / 9.9
4100794015 / 9.8
4100794016 / 9.8
4100794017 / 9.9
4100794018 / 10
4100794019 / 9.9
4100794020 / 9.8

Ultimate Fallout: Facsimile Edition #4: 'In God We Trust' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794021 / 9.9
4100794022 / 9.9
4100794023 / 9.9
4100794024 / 9.9
4100794025 / 9.8
4100794026 / 10
4100794027 / 9.8
4100794028 / 9.8
4100794029 / 9.9
4100794030 / 9.8
 

Explains why CGC is doubling down.

[jaxcomics]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:29 PM, I like pie said:

Explains why CGC is doubling down.

Those grades are such a slap in the face to all of the collectors and dealers that have submitted for years and know how rare 9.9 and 10s are (supposed to be). 

[Blackmask]

I think Skeleton Key Comics has moved in with Jason Ewert.  Best vanishing act since James Harden in a playoff game.

[Mike's Rack]

On 8/9/2022 at 8:12 PM, jsilverjanet said:

Sellers who sold on whatnot have violated their terms of service 

• Distribute or sell counterfeit, unauthorized, stolen, B-grade, or similar non-authentic Items or NFTs;

Good point, but considering they are some of the largest sellers, I doubt that will be enforced.

[Willbert]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:31 PM, jaxcomics said:

Those grades are such a slap in the face to all of the collectors and dealers that have submitted for years and know how rare 9.9 and 10s are (supposed to be). 

Like the 274 Stray Dogs Acetates on the census with none cracking above 9.8?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:12 PM, jsilverjanet said:

Sellers who sold on whatnot have violated their terms of service 

• Distribute or sell counterfeit, unauthorized, stolen, B-grade, or similar non-authentic Items or NFTs;

Same for eBay.

[troydivision1]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:41 PM, Willbert said:

Like the 274 Stray Dogs Acetates on the census with none cracking above 9.8?

Another popular acetate cover
Marvels #1 - ONE 9.9 out of 464 graded copies
Marvels #2 - NO copies over 9.8 (251 total graded)
Marvels #3 - TWO 9.9s out of 332 graded copies
Marvels #4 - NO copies over 9.8 (359 total graded)

[OJ Pimpson]

On 8/9/2022 at 8:31 PM, jaxcomics said:

Those grades are such a slap in the face to all of the collectors and dealers that have submitted for years and know how rare 9.9 and 10s are (supposed to be). 

They aren’t rare, they do not exist. 9.9s and 10s are not given to the public. It is, with extremely rare exception,  a grade reserved for retailers and their exclusive covers that are sent in for mass grading

Edited August 10, 2022 by Dimez

[BoognishRises]

Starting to look pretty obvious Clayton Crain and/or Black Flag got special treatment with those 9.9's and 10.0's. 

Everything under that acetate wrap has been laying around and handled for a year before having the plastic stapled on. 

Is CGC admitting that nothing under the acetate wrap was taken into consideration for grading? 

Get real

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/9/2022 at 2:02 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I think we all know what the real issue with this variant is. For an "In God We [In]Trust" variant, it's just not suburban kitcschy enough for the USA.

So I have an idea for the next one. UF4 is very popular, but not as popular as this book…

But Hulk 181 has problems. What's that background? The Canadian Wilderness? Wolverine may be Canadian, but the Hulk isn't! And Marvel isn't! So it needs a proper AMERICAN upgrade.

And who screams "AMERICAN!" more than Thomas Kincaid. Bonus! We already know that the Disney corp is okay with mashing up its characters on his drek. (https://thomaskinkade.com/art-genre/disney-images/)

Here's a proper AMERICAN background:

Just gotta cut some holes out in the acetate, and voila:

 

I actually spent a lot more time on this joke than I should have.

[BoognishRises]

Clayton Crain and Black Flag send in 30 books (3 different acetate frankenbooks, 10 of each) and get the same exact grades for all 3 books.

Each of the 3 books got one 10.0, three 9.9 and six 9.8. So three 10's, nine 9.9's and eighteen 9.8's.

Hahahahaha

[OJ Pimpson]

On 8/9/2022 at 8:22 PM, Troy Division said:

Just to clarify ALL these acetate books were graded on 7/28/22

Ghost Rider #1 'Zymotica Vs' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794001 / 9.8
4100794002 / 9.8
4100794003 / 10
4100794004 / 9.9
4100794005 / 9.9
4100794006 / 9.9
4100794007 / 9.8
4100794008 / 9.8
4100794009 / 9.8
4100794010 / 9.8

Deadpool Nerdy 30 #1 '99 Problems' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794011 / 9.8
4100794012 / 9.8
4100794013 / 9.8
4100794014 / 9.9
4100794015 / 9.8
4100794016 / 9.8
4100794017 / 9.9
4100794018 / 10
4100794019 / 9.9
4100794020 / 9.8

Ultimate Fallout: Facsimile Edition #4: 'In God We Trust' Acetate Edition
Infinite Black Publishing Exclusive
4100794021 / 9.9
4100794022 / 9.9
4100794023 / 9.9
4100794024 / 9.9
4100794025 / 9.8
4100794026 / 10
4100794027 / 9.8
4100794028 / 9.8
4100794029 / 9.9
4100794030 / 9.8
 

 

[Mike's Rack]

Since 2018 I’ve submitted around 1700 modern books with a 9.6 prescreen … 0 9.9 and 0 10.0. 

No custom acetate covers though.