C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:17 AM, WolverineX said:

TLDR version of the last 24 hrs please.  I can't keep up...

This link will send you to the TL;DR post, but it's 12 pages old.

[WolverineX]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:51 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

This link will send you to the TL;DR post, but it's 12 pages old.

Wow.  Just wow.  

[Buzzetta]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:21 AM, Dr. Balls said:

Man, you are just determined to be correct on this issue. 

A sketch is considered an “individual expression” in most legal issues involving comic book remarques. It is an entirely different issue when you manufacture multiple copies of the same product and attach it to someone else’s intellectual property. You can’t resell something that’s been re-packaged using licensed characters without permission.  it's lawful to buy products, modify them, and then re-sell the modified versions so long as the intellectual property rights of the original product manufacturer are respected - which doesn’t sound like that is the case in this instance.

@jaybuck43

Trying to find what the issue was with Hasbro and edition sized customs around fifteen possibly even twenty years ago.  There was a guy making edition sizes of certain figures and altering them and then re-carding them.  
 

Id look for it myself but I’m not getting out of bed until I have to go pick up my car in this rain.

[Cman429]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:49 AM, Galen130 said:

 It all proves what I’ve been person_without_enough_empathying about for awhile…the comic industry has turned into another money grab, like Disney and the MCU.  I’m of the mindset….what goes around, comes around.

 

 

If you think the comic industry is bad, you should look into the card business. It’s been my side hustle and in recent years it’s turned into an eerie reflection of the comic biz. Variant style cards, influencers jumping lines for exclusives, certain chosen companies curiously getting extraordinary high grades from “trusted” companies, etc… It’s all the same racket although on a bigger scale. No wonder CGC wanted in.

Unfortunately it seems like now that GenX and GenY have grown up to be gainfully employed - judging by this thread half of us are lawyers! - they’ve decided that Stocks are for boomers and Bitcoin is for those silly millennials so why not speculate with the things we grew up on, comics and cards!

it’s kinda depressing but I think we all know how it’ll eventually end.

[Sigur Ros]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:42 AM, Dr. Balls said:

No need to get snarky. People are responding to your commentary because you keep bringing up alternate explanations to why there should be an exception to what this comic seller was doing. And despite boardies discussing the issue of trademark, you keep fighting it.

No one here is looking to be told they are right, but when someone keeps going with disagreeing in the minutiae of other people’s comments - it’s going to get drawn out.

I’m not looking to change your mind, but if you don’t care about the topic but just choose to be a troll - so be it, I can walk away from that.

I'm not saying he should get an exception. I have said this is wrong because of potential perception of legitimacy by collectors.  But I don't see the difference between this and a sketch on an existing cover, except for maybe quantities.   But quantities is not the problem people are complaining about, it's infringement.

Sketches often use licensed characters.  This guy didn't.  Why is his version worse in the eyes of the law?  Rhetorical, not asking for even more opinions because only Marvel's matters. 

Your comment about exceptions shows you clearly aren't even reading me when you call me a troll.  You're assigning meaning to what I'm saying.  Then getting snarky with "determined to be right" and a beating horse emoji. 

As for walking away, feel free. I didn't ask you or anyone to engage.  I'm discussing a situation with opinions like everyone else.  The fact that people don't like mine are not an issue for me. 👍

 

[wiparker824]

On 8/10/2022 at 5:30 PM, TTony said:

If you are new here, to summarize the last 79 pages of this thread...

• Line cutting
• Influencers pre-buying books before the con is open and before those books are supposedly available
• Influencers hyping a book they are selling on WhatNot
• Retailer selling out of books for collectors because dirty flippers bought them all without a limit to purchase
• Limit to purchase books (from unlimited down to 1 or 2) instituted right after flippers finish buying their mass quantities
• Book shows up on CBSI Top 10 list the day it is released and no one supposedly knew about the book
• No one mentions CBSI comment on book "That being said, the homages.. bleh.  Please make it stop." (I guess this doesn't fit the narrative?)
• Raising the price of books while other people are still in line ($85 up $100 for raws and $500 to $750 for 9.8's)
• Charging $2500 for a 10.0 at the booth
• Artist possibly related to the store selling the copies
• Store recycling exclusives by adding acetate covers to "limited edition books"
• Marvel did not approve the acetate covers, someone knows a VP
• Bleedingcool.com publishes Marvel did not approve of this
• The wheels are rolling
• People who buy 79 copies of a book with 750 copies
• Youtube influencers put up videos defending the practice of them being able to buy books before others because "it's their livelihood, they quit their day job to do this and you are just a collector with no financial interest."
• Youtube influencers take down video defending what they did.
• Other Youtube influencers criticize original Youtube influencers for (a) putting up the video defending their actions and (b) taking the video down.
• CGC says it stands by the decision.
• CGC says it will reply with more details the next day.
• CGC more details = we did it for Stray Dogs 1 Acetate cover
• Stray Dogs publisher = please leave us out of this, we have no part in this.
• Stray Dogs book had different UPC code and acetate cover installed when book produced, UF4 book has same UPC code as previously released store exclusive and acetate cover added later, post production
• Instagram poster that bought 79 copies... turns out only 15 are for her, the rest are for friends.
• Instagram poster posts apology
• Instagram poster deletes apology
• Instagram poster turns off comments
• Photoshop of instagram poster with 79 copies makes people laugh
• Instagram poster gets roasted in WhatNot auction in the comments, asks people to be booted from auction.
• Instagram poster gave some books away and sold some to friends at regular $85 retail price.
• Instagram poster feels bad for people that didn't get books that waited in line, tried to do something about it.
• YouTuber tries to sell book on eBay and donate profits to veterans causes, eBay takes listing down after angry comic book fam mass notifies eBay of fradulant listings (hot damn, comic fam!)
• eBay takes down listings of books as bootleg copies
• eBay shill bids of over $1000 prevent ignorant buyers from buying book
• Greggy, i don't know wtf that means but it's here
• Store exclusive UF4 has a print run of 750 (actually 750 left over copies from last year) and got graded as a 10.0, 3 9.9's and several 9.8's...  then releases 2 more store exclusives for upcoming Boston show that also has one 10.0, three 9.9's and several 9.8's but this time with a print run of only 350.
• CGC graded these post production modified books in Blue Label Universal grade.  
• CGC says Acetate cover made by the original artist so it's all good for Blue Label.
• Posters say it should be Green Label.
• Posters say it should be Purple Label.
• Posters say it should be Yellow Label.
• Posters say it should be Yellow/Green Label.
• Posters say it should be "NG".
• Posters say it should be Blue Label with notes stating cover was attached after production.
• Signature on Acetate is a printing, not real signature.  
• Folded flag on cover shows red and white, folded American flags should never show red & white.
• Cover marketed as homage to veterans, no money from books sales goes to veterans.  Bronze & Modern Gods YT channel host is a veteran and is not amused.
• Screen shot of direct messaging to CGC, CGC comments their "head grading team" is on the case.  Who is this mysterious head grading team?  Speculation goes wild.
• CGC description on label states "In God We Trust", cover of book says "In God We Intrust"
• Like 20 pages of posts of people wanting to Acetate own covers and get 9.9 or 10.0's.
• Like 10 pages of "Bad Idea" and this is the "Ultimate Fallout" posts.
• Boston Fan Expo aware of issue but mid level management keeping opinions silent and waiting for the boss to make a decision/statement
• Outrage over influencers going through CGC grading course
• Many people learning there is a website called CBSI (Comic Book Speculation and Investing) and saying the end of times is here.
• Can we get comics graded as 11.0?
• Selling these on WhatNot is a violation of WhatNot's own TOS
• Key Collector App has ethics
• Black Flag will make TWO lines at the next con... 1 for influencers and resellers who can buy 10 copies each.  and 1 line for collectors that can buy 1 each.
• The collectors will get 100 copies, the influencers and flippers will get 250 copies.
• Misogyny
• Blackstone does not equal Black Flag
• Vanilla Ice, cowbell, Grover Cleveland, Ding Dongs, invisible books, lots of people eating popcorn, hulk vs wolverine in some 1950's neighborhood, 9.9 Bibles, 11.0 dictionary's, squirrels smoking crack, lots of tires hitting people and removing the tire that actually seriously hurt someone
• Acetate Gate nickname coined
• Jumping the shark?  Can it be done twice?
• Black Flag drove 22 hours to sell these comics so it's ok.
• CB** weighs in with shots fired mess post elsewhere.
• Books would be ok if torn up and made into collages
• CGCMike throws down the gauntlet and says he expected more replies than this... "only 57 notifications in 4 hours?"
• It should be graded as a double cover
• It should be graded by both covers and the interior
• Stop promoting competitor graders just because of this controversy
• No one knows what C2E2 thinks of this
• Skeff got 10 copies that he sold that night
• Books were graded at CGC, not onsite at C2E2.  Books graded with other acetate Black Flag covers.  
• CGC dealer discount dropped to 15% and $200 yr fee this year
• What if Chic-Fit-A did this???
• eBay is the new standard for ethics.
• Many pics of census screenshots to show lack of 9.9's and 10's
• Black Flag IG is gone.  Now it's back.
• Black Flag IG posts on UF4 are all gone now.
• Several accountants posting expected profit of $30k+ for this by the retailer.
• Recap of 79 pages
   

Thank you for your hard work sir. This is still my favorite of these bullet points “Screen shot of direct messaging to CGC, CGC comments their "head grading team" is on the case.  Who is this mysterious head grading team?  Speculation goes wild.” I literally burst into laughter.

[Buzzetta]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:09 AM, wiparker824 said:

Thank you for your hard work sir. This is still my favorite of these bullet points “Screen shot of direct messaging to CGC, CGC comments their "head grading team" is on the case.  Who is this mysterious head grading team?  Speculation goes wild.” I literally burst into laughter.

“Top Men” are working on it… 

First they have to attend to the comics in grading queue that have backed up in the vault.

 

[gradejunky]

I have just been trolling this thread for the past couple of days, and am flabbergasted.  Not much more I could add that others haven't already said but the prices of raws still on ebay for auction have gone nuclear...WTF!

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=ultimate+fallout+4+c2e2&_sacat=63&LH_TitleDesc=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&rt=nc

 

There are BIN's sitting at $750 while 3 auctions are soaring upwards of $25K.

Edited August 11, 2022 by gradejunky

[Galen130]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:06 AM, Cman429 said:

If you think the comic industry is bad, you should look into the card business. It’s been my side hustle and in recent years it’s turned into an eerie reflection of the comic biz. Variant style cards, influencers jumping lines for exclusives, certain chosen companies curiously getting extraordinary high grades from “trusted” companies, etc… It’s all the same racket although on a bigger scale. No wonder CGC wanted in.

Unfortunately it seems like now that GenX and GenY have grown up to be gainfully employed - judging by this thread half of us are lawyers! - they’ve decided that Stocks are for boomers and Bitcoin is for those silly millennials so why not speculate with the things we grew up on, comics and cards!

it’s kinda depressing but I think we all know how it’ll eventually end.

Gen X….FTFY. 

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:58 AM, WolverineX said:

Wow.  Just wow.  

All of this is stupid. #comicsgeneral

[GetEmLuke]

On 8/10/2022 at 8:02 PM, ExNihilo said:

I emailed FanExpo Boston notifying them of what Black Flag did at C2E2 and that they intended to sell more unlicensed merchandise.  Received a generic response from them.  Will see if the Exhibitors Team actually follows up.

(note, my email to FanExpo included the Bleeding Cool article.  Also, it was pointed out that FanExpo reps peruse these boards and are likely already aware, but I guess the more they hear about it, maybe the more they'll think allowing it might lead to bad press or setting a bad precedence)

 

FXHQ (FAN EXPO BOSTON) Aug 10, 2022, 18:19 EDT Hello,   Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We have shared your concerns with our Exhibitors Team. Sincerely, The FAN EXPO HQ Team On parle français • Se habla Español Don’t miss a thing from your favorite shows. Subscribe to the FAN EXPO HQ YouTube channel for the latest in celebrity panel highlights, exclusive FAN EXPO Studios content, epic convention cosplay and much more!

I doubt they care much as long as they are getting paid also. They still have Clayton Crain listed as a guest when he cancelled well over a week ago.

[jsilverjanet]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:35 AM, Dr. Balls said:

A special thank you to people who are making this happen:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195268521004?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=OKeY5zHdTHy&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=klSRfU4zRnq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

i saw a few did sell early this morning, can't tell what the buy it now price but ask was $500

[GACollectibles]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:50 AM, Ryan. said:

If you and I text each other while standing near the Blag Flack booth, does that qualify us enough as influencers to buy ten copies of their Acetate Comics #1?

I'm more likely to get influenza than be an influencer.

[Galen130]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:46 AM, GACollectibles said:

I'm more likely to get influenza than be an influencer.

Can you be influenced to get an influenza vaccine? 

[awakeintheashes]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:49 AM, Galen130 said:

Can you be influenced to get an influenza vaccine? 

You trying to get Roy here?

[Galen130]

On 8/11/2022 at 7:53 AM, awakeintheashes said:

You trying to get Roy here?

 

[Ryan.]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:46 AM, GACollectibles said:

I'm more likely to get influenza than be an influencer.

I think you meant to say you are more likely to be a flatulencer.

[wiparker824]

I’ve been thinking… can you put an acetate that is completely clear with no new art at all over a comic and call it a variant to get a blue label? Seems like you should be able to now… and then we could combine the invisible comic concept with the acetate cover concept. Best of both worlds.

“Invisible Cover Acetate Variant”. CGC 10.0 all day.

[sevans1979]

Are prices still climbing on this variant or have they ease up a bit?

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:07 AM, Sigur Ros said:

I'm not saying he should get an exception. I have said this is wrong because of potential perception of legitimacy by collectors.  But I don't see the difference between this and a sketch on an existing cover, except for maybe quantities.   But quantities is not the problem people are complaining about, it's infringement.

Sketches often use licensed characters.  This guy didn't.  Why is his version worse in the eyes of the law?  Rhetorical, not asking for even more opinions because only Marvel's matters. 

Your comment about exceptions shows you clearly aren't even reading me when you call me a troll.  You're assigning meaning to what I'm saying.  Then getting snarky with "determined to be right" and a beating horse emoji. 

As for walking away, feel free. I didn't ask you or anyone to engage.  I'm discussing a situation with opinions like everyone else.  The fact that people don't like mine are not an issue for me. 👍

 

I'm not a lawyer, but this stuff fascinates me, so I've read a bit about the topic, because I want to have a better understanding of it. My understanding is that the bit in bold is the issue. Marvel licensed the right to sell their product in a specific way. Since the product was altered by Black Flag in a way, unlike in the obvious custom way that a sketch alters it, and the perception is that this is a legitimate variant, essentially Black Flag may have violated Marvel's trademark to market products with their IP (even if the alterations themselves don't utilize their IP). A lot of law depends on what a reasonable person would assume. I think lawyers would have a much easier time arguing that a reasonable person might assume that the acetate versions are a legitimate Marvel product, than they would arguing that a reasonable person would think a sketch cover with a custom sketch added after production of Venom going down on the Black Cat was an approved Marvel product. Marvel might be opposed to the latter example more fiercely, but legally they probably couldn't do anything about it.