C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[Mike's Rack]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:06 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I resemble that remark.

I'm no lawyer, but I taught a course for a few years on Ethics and Copyright Law at MSU when I was an instructor in their graphic design program.

Then you are more qualified to speak on this topic than 99% of lawyers I know.

[Dr. Balls]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:25 AM, KirbyTown said:

Figured these were total shill accounts before I checked; could they be risking theirs for the lulz? The ultimate result would be an actual purchase 🙏

I also like the retractions and how the original bidder was a (4) 😃

Thanks for sharing this!!

I think you can renege on Ebay auctions several times before you are penalized. As a seller, I can specify that people who have 3 unpaid strikes in a month can't bid - but for a buyer to get that mark on their account you actually have to file an unpaid bidder report - which is a drawn out process compared to just cancelling your auction and starting it over again. Ebay is like 20% deadbeats, so their enforcement is on par with getting your car broken into in San Francisco: no one on their end cares.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:10 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

When discussion of this book first started, I didn't even notice the addition of the flag, just the stripes on the side and the USA stamp up top. I think Black Flag (or whoever came up with the concept) of a "revision" may be onto something; it's a fresh idea for variants. (We can argue whether it's a good idea or a bad idea, but I think it's fair that it's "fresh.") I wouldn't be surprised if we see, coming out of this, Marvel adopt the idea of acetate revision variants, but with a strict approval process of what they're going to allow those revisions to be. And I imagine they would have to be the ones producing them.

If by 'fresh', you mean, to take unsold stock and turn it into a manufactured collectible, leading us down a path toward a new generations Turok #1, I suppose you have a point. 

[ygogolak]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:26 AM, MrBedrock said:

Interesting. Having been involved in comics retail since 1978, opening my first store in 1990, and growing to six stores at present, I thought I knew everything about speculation as it relates to comic collecting. 

Thank you for educating me.

Hopefully you can throw a little knowledge CGC's way too.

This reads very much like “This is the way I’ve always done it so it’s right.”

[Dr. Balls]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:12 AM, Mike's Rack said:

Then you are more qualified to speak on this topic than 99% of lawyers I know.

I've had to file my own copyrights and trademarks, and I've had to attempt to enforce action against infringement on my art (which never got past a C&D letter since I didn't want to spend the money to retain representation). I'm no expert, but I found this area of the law engaging since it applied to what I did for a living.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Dr. Balls

[Mike's Rack]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:12 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I think you can renege on Ebay auctions several times before you are penalized. As a seller, I can specify that people who have 3 unpaid strikes in a month can't bid - but for a buyer to get that mark on their account you actually have to file an unpaid bidder report - which is a drawn out process compared to just cancelling your auction and starting it over again. Ebay is like 20% deadbeats, so their enforcement is on par with getting your car broken into in San Francisco: no one on their end cares.

 

“Leads?  Yeah, sure.  I’ll check with the boys downtown at the crime lab, they’ve got four more detectives working the case.  They got us working in shifts!

Leads!…”

 

[Shazbot]

This plot line has gone on for 94 issues now and so far the main antagonist has only made a couple of brief, 4th-wall-breaking cameo appearances to mock us, the readers. This run is cray-cray!! Glad I picked issue #1 off the rack, think I'll add an acetate cover or two, maybe slap some glue on the spines for that square-bound feel, shrink wrap it, and sub through the Triple-Platinum(or 'Black Flag') Tier for that sweet, sweet 10.0.

[Prince Namor]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:09 AM, MrBedrock said:

Oh. Well I learned something new today. I will edit my previous posts.

It's not far off from wrong though. They took their variant, that was... what's the minimum, 3000? And found a way to still sell the overstock of it (750 copies) in the most inexpensive way possible and make bank. It's a manufactured collectible of a manufactured collectible. We have gotten to THIS point in the hobby's history. 

[WolverineX]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:07 AM, Prince Namor said:

Oh boy...

What a saint.  I might bid it up to 40k now. 

[Prince Namor]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:14 AM, ygogolak said:

This reads very much like “This is the way I’ve always done it so it’s right.”

Weird. I read it as "He's been successful for 40+ years at it, he might know more than the guy who's been successful for the last 40 minutes."

[MrBedrock]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:14 AM, ygogolak said:

This reads very much like “This is the way I’ve always done it so it’s right.”

Reading isn't your strong suit, is it?

[DR.X]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:20 AM, WolverineX said:

What a saint.  I might bid it up to 40k now. 

WTF is happening to this hobby.

[Mike's Rack]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:25 AM, MrBedrock said:

Reading isn't your strong suit, is it?

Think how much more successful you would have been if you had stapled acetate covers to your unsold stock 40 years ago!

[wardevil0]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:26 AM, MrBedrock said:

   On 8/11/2022 at 7:12 AM, ygogolak said:

Um, that’s not speculation. That’s market reaction.

People use speculation in comics a lot now and don’t seem to know what it means. It’s not speculation once there evidence, like the other dealers sending emails before the show selling them for $200.

the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.

Interesting. Having been involved in comics retail since 1978, opening my first store in 1990, and growing to six stores at present, I thought I knew everything about speculation as it relates to comic collecting. 

Thank you for educating me.

Hopefully you can throw a little knowledge CGC's way too.

Maybe it's not the correct way to use the term, but if I start buying up Amazing Fantasy 15s because I suspect the price will rise significantly in the short term and I will be able to make a disproportionate profit relative to the value increase of comparable comics, most people would consider that "speculating."  Yes, AF15 is a proven value, but why buy into that particular issue instead of Brave and the Bold 28?  Because I'm "speculating" that it's value will increase more.

[FFB]

On 8/11/2022 at 3:27 AM, Skwerl said:

Unfortunately I was made an expert in copyright infringement law back in 2008, and... no, nah. You can't say it "most certainly" is anything in this case. This would have to be settled in court. And the terms of the original agreement for these exclusives would have to be looked at. There seem to be legally valid arguments on either side. To a judge that doesn't know anything about comic books, it could be argued that Black Flag simply re-packaged something they had every right to sell. Now, that all said, I think there are no ethically valid arguments on Black Flag's side, and I would love to see them smacked real hard on both wrists for this, because it's bootlegging and it's bs and it's horrible and I'm not defending them at all on this. They can eat all the . But "derivative work" doesn't mean what you think it means. Marvel can surely send a C&D, because anyone can for anything, and they could sue Black Flag, because anyone can sue anyone for anything. But you can't say this is a clear cut case of criminal (as opposed to far murkier civil) copyright infringement when Black Flag did have an agreement to publish these comics. Then they modified them, which is probably/hopefully a violation of their license. But then that's not an infringement case.

I have a decent understanding of what a derivative work is and I cannot think of any reason why this would not qualify.  I guess we will have to agree to disagree whether creating a new cover with new art for a comic book, affixing that cover to the comic book, and marketing it as an ultra-limited, exclusive "edition," whose only difference from the original, authorized edition is the affixed acetate cover with the additional, original artwork, constitutes a derivative work.  

I'll definitely give you credit for a clever and creative argument that the acetate cover is just packaging, but it's pretty clearly not "just packaging," and I would expect that argument to be disposed of in a paragraph or two if Black Flag actually raised it in court. 

Lord knows I've seen a federal judge make some head-scratching decisions on a few occasions, but in my experience, they usually get things right.  I believe that most federal judges and their clerks would have little trouble understanding this case - especially if Marvel's/Disney's lawyers lay it out for them.  Federal judges and their clerks routinely have to get their heads around scenarios far more complicated than this one. 

It would be interesting to see what Marvel's contract says about these retailer variants, but I would be shocked if the contract granted the retailer the right to create any derivative works or any copyright interests at all.  I also have no idea whether the contract would expressly prohibit what happened here, but it doesn't need to.  The Copyright Act provides all of the protection Marvel would need to stop this from happening without their approval.  

Other than that, I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post.  

[Dr. Balls]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:10 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I think Black Flag (or whoever came up with the concept) of a "revision" may be onto something; it's a fresh idea for variants. (We can argue whether it's a good idea or a bad idea, but I think it's fair that it's "fresh.") I wouldn't be surprised if we see, coming out of this, Marvel adopt the idea of acetate revision variants, but with a strict approval process of what they're going to allow those revisions to be. And I imagine they would have to be the ones producing them.

I don't think fresh would be the word I would chose for the variant culture. To each their own in the comic world, but comics as a collectible are driven by people wanting to buy existing copies. Comics as a manufactured collectible are driven by people being manipulated into thinking what they are buying is unique, exclusive, etc.

It may look like we're splitting hairs here, but I think the entire variant culture is unethical, dangerous and shady - always has been and always will be (going back to the Wizard days). It's based on the idea that you can repackage a $5 book and sell it for $20 because you say it's worth that by reinforcing it with blabbering YouTube and Instagram "influencers" who get free books to talk about how "rare' it is, etc ad nauseam. The internet and Con hype and manipulation make the horsesh@t Wizard peddled back in the day look like schoolyard whispers.

I don't know what word is the right word when referring to a new way to rip people off.

[MrBedrock]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:27 AM, Mike's Rack said:

Think how much more successful you would have been if you had stapled acetate covers to your unsold stock 40 years ago!

I think back to how successful I would have been if I had ordered a case of Youngblood Strikefile #1 for everyone who asked me to.

[DrunkWooky]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:58 AM, Mike's Rack said:

Hey!  “How am I supposed to charge for this when you are giving it out for free?”

Sorry. Legal market's competitive nowadays. Gotta give your users a free sample now to get them hooked. 

[Mike's Rack]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:28 AM, FFB said:

I also have no idea whether the contract would expressly prohibit what happened here, but it doesn't need to

They will now…

[GeeksAreMyPeeps]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:13 AM, Prince Namor said:

If by 'fresh', you mean, to take unsold stock and turn it into a manufactured collectible, leading us down a path toward a new generations Turok #1, I suppose you have a point. 

Not at all what I was suggesting. I meant the idea of creating an acetate overlay that creates a revised version of the underlying art. For example, I could see this being used in some way to obscure a character reveal.