Four Scores and 1.5 years Ago...(Registry Scoring Discussion Thread) 5 5

[wytshus]

On 2/7/2023 at 11:25 AM, Sauce Dog said:

It makes more sense to just have a standard point structure (which can differ across each era of comics, so Golden Age books feel more 'valuable' to obtain compared to any Modern age book), then introduce bonuses such as; completion % points, image bonus, and perhaps introduce a KEY BOOK bonus which is assigned to some of the most obvious books out there that have great significance (such as Hulk 181, AF15, a slew of DC GA first appearances) and makes those books stand out from others (this is where the community can suggest new books that deserve the tag & key bonus, rather than us constantly suggesting registry point corrections every week)

Get out of my head, Sir!

I completely agree, but we are going to stick with the status quo, for now.

The algorithm is supposed to adjust for desirability and rarity, WITHIN THE CENSUS.  This is why I keep harping on the fact that the Registry and the Census do not represent the open market.  They only represent books that are in the CGC database. 

[Figment]

Meanwhile books that are nearly impossible to find and sell for thousands continue to get no love in the registry.  80 points?  140 points?  For early GA Marvel Hero books in decent mid-grade condition?  Talk is cheap, let's see where the action takes us.

[wytshus]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:42 PM, Figment said:

Meanwhile books that are nearly impossible to find and sell for thousands continue to get no love in the registry.  80 points?  140 points?  For early GA Marvel Hero books in decent mid-grade condition?  Talk is cheap, let's see where the action takes us.

And Amazing Fantasy 15 gets 6400 points for a Universal .5 Grade....

If you look at the leaders for ASM Complete w/ Variants,  2nd place only has 5% complete, with 0 images,  yet they have 746482 points.  Why?  Because they have 2 grails.

Meanwhile, 13th place has 85% complete, 347 images, and only gets 194034 points. They do not have ASM #1

 

I would rather have the sets ranked by completion percentage first.  It doesn't look like that is going to happen any time soon, if at all.

So, I will continue to stress that Registry Points do not equate to market dollars. As far as the Awards go, we only use points to determine the top sets in each category, then rank according to completion %, images, and original descriptions.

 

 

 

[Rosland]

I would like individual books to be graded by market value (approx) and set scores should include

completion percentage, covers, and comments. The trick is how each gets weighted. Covers are simple,

but comments need to be evaluated for quality, not just having some random text.

Maybe: SlotScore * CompletionFraction * 80% + 10% for images + 10% for comments?

[wytshus]

On 2/23/2023 at 8:58 PM, Rosland said:

I would like individual books to be graded by market value (approx) and set scores should include

completion percentage, covers, and comments. The trick is how each gets weighted. Covers are simple,

but comments need to be evaluated for quality, not just having some random text.

Maybe: SlotScore * CompletionFraction * 80% + 10% for images + 10% for comments?

I have a number of issues with Market Value Scoring for individual books:

 

The CGC Census does not represent the open market.

CGC should not be, and is not, in the business of declaring FMV for individual books

There is no automated system in place to adjust scores, it is all done by hand.

Market fluctuations make accurate, up to date adjustments impossible.

 

However, the status quo will be in place for the foreseeable future. I am doing my very best to accommodate every one, and keep the powers that be happy at the same time.....

 

I agree with your formula for set scores.  But it will require extensive coding changes, which will not even be considered until the ERP migration is completed.

 

 

Also,  I want to stress that the Collector's Society set rankings and the Award rankings are not the same thing.  We rank contenders according to completion % first, then by photos and comments.  We look at the comments to make sure that they are not just copied and pasted from another website.  We also look for passion for the hobby in the comments.  

[comicwine]

Where do we make requests to have points reviewed for a particular book or books? I have noticed that Darth Vader 3 (1st series) with the 1st appearance of Dr. Aphra has a registry value of 320 points while the harder to get and more desirable variant cover only has 24 points. I made a request in the set registry request page. Hopefully it will be reviewed.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 3/22/2023 at 4:51 PM, comicwine said:

Where do we make requests to have points reviewed for a particular book or books? I have noticed that Darth Vader 3 (1st series) with the 1st appearance of Dr. Aphra has a registry value of 320 points while the harder to get and more desirable variant cover only has 24 points. I made a request in the set registry request page. Hopefully it will be reviewed.

It will be

It does take time, a long one sometimes, but @wytshus will Lord willing "like" your post to give you a reaction once done so that you don't have to keep too hard of tabs. 

 

[jjbjheartman]

Could you take a look at the point value on ASM 194? It has been a while since it changed at all. Thanks. 

[RayJr]

Speaking of points, can it be to where it’s in increments of 5 between a Universal & Signature Series? 

[wytshus]

On 4/14/2023 at 5:48 PM, RayJr said:

Speaking of points, can it be to where it’s in increments of 5 between a Universal & Signature Series? 

I have no control over weighted scores. The only input I have is Universal, 

[RayJr]

On 4/19/2023 at 1:29 PM, wytshus said:

I have no control over weighted scores. The only input I have is Universal, 

Oh ok 

[Off Panel]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:24 AM, wytshus said:

If you look at the leaders for ASM Complete w/ Variants,  2nd place only has 5% complete, with 0 images,  yet they have 746482 points.  Why?  Because they have 2 grails.

Meanwhile, 13th place has 85% complete, 347 images, and only gets 194034 points. They do not have ASM #1

That doesn't seem out of bounds to me.

It would be an interesting exercise to poll the boardies and ask "Would you rather have Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 in 9.8 condition OR issues #2 through #62 in 9.8?" 

I know how I would answer.

[wytshus]

On 4/19/2023 at 10:41 PM, Off Panel said:

That doesn't seem out of bounds to me.

It would be an interesting exercise to poll the boardies and ask "Would you rather have Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 in 9.8 condition OR issues #2 through #62 in 9.8?" 

I know how I would answer.

Sure, but all that does is reward someone with a lot of money, and discourages average collectors from competing in the Registry.

 

 

[Off Panel]

On 4/20/2023 at 10:45 AM, wytshus said:

Sure, but all that does is reward someone with a lot of money, and discourages average collectors from competing in the Registry.

I hear what you're saying, but disagree on a couple of points.

1) I would be interested to know how many registries are topped by Saudi sheiks or Elon Musk types vs how many are led by guys who have slowly put together amazing collections over several decades. Or bought the best copies of keys that they could find in the 80s and 90s. These guys may have had more vision than money going for them. Maybe some of our chart toppers are comic book store owners who built their personal collections while building their businesses. LCS owners are awesome, but most of the ones I've met aren't exactly in the hedge fund manager tax brackets, if you know what I mean.

2) Why would a collector be discouraged from competing in the Registry? Because they can't take the top spot with their run of 35 high-grade Fantastic Four issues from the 90s? Maybe they just love those books and want to show them off. There are currently 735 sets in the Amazing Spider-man (Complete) set. Do all of those guys think, "Oh yeah, I'm definitely going to have the top set. Just biding my time for now..."? I can answer that question because I'm one of those dudes and I will never, ever have the top set. Colorado Comics doesn't need to lose a wink of sleep over me. Doesn't mean I'm gonna take my ball and go home.

I don't think adopting a "quantity over quality" approach will make the registry better.

I know I've said this before, but I think there is room for two top dogs: the Points winner (the person with the highest score based on books, whether that's a high grade run of lots of comics or a single Marvel Mystery Comics #1 in 9.8 with white pages) and the Best Set winner (the person who puts together the most compelling set with great photos, thoughtful commentary and a really cool point of view). It doesn't need to be either/or. We shouldn't try to lower the bar on the competition; we should just create other legitimate avenues for people to win.

[wytshus]

1) Not so much that as dealers.  I do appreciate the work and dedication it takes to acquire grails.  It's just that the high value grails really distort the smaller sets.  Keep in mind that I inherited the scoring system, and I am doing my very best to work with the hand that I was dealt.  

2) Again, the grails just completely blow out the average collector.  Having Amazing Fantasy 15 guarantees a top spot in some sets. I think we did a pretty good job of balancing the grail hunters and the "completionists" in last year's awards.  The point system rewards grail hunters, the Awards rewards both.  

 

I have always had a problem with the focus on points.  There's very little I can do to convince people to look at the bigger picture when it comes to the Registry.  I have been kicking around some new ideas, but I am constrained by the Collector's Society format, and the sheer size of the Registry.  One Idea I had is to make all sets Custom, and let the collector decide which category they want their set to compete in.  I would also like to modify points based on descriptions and photos, but that would require extensive coding changes that simply aren't going to happen.  

There is talk of migrating the Collector's Society to a format similar to Trading Cards.  I think that would allow me to do some of the things I have always wanted to do within the Registry.  Maybe next year.....

   

[jimhouston1]

I still think a 100% complete set with 100% complete front and back images posted with 100% descriptions sets should get "completion" points or their own awards as I find it very frustrating that a 10 comic set can beat a 100% complete set in points. I have a complete Batman 1-100 set posted and as soon as my comics from CGC (which shipped yesterday arrive) I will have Amazing Spider-man 1-100 with the 7 annuals and Amazing Fantasy 15 set complete!

https://comics.www.collectors-society.com/registry/comics/PeopleSetDetail.aspx?PeopleSetID=144133

https://comics.www.collectors-society.com/registry/comics/PeopleSetDetail.aspx?PeopleSetID=149785

I know there was some talk last year about getting more points and more recognition for complete sets but nothing has happened.

 

[wytshus]

On 6/21/2023 at 1:14 PM, jimhouston1 said:

I still think a 100% complete set with 100% complete front and back images posted with 100% descriptions sets should get "completion" points or their own awards as I find it very frustrating that a 10 comic set can beat a 100% complete set in points. I have a complete Batman 1-100 set posted and as soon as my comics from CGC (which shipped yesterday arrive) I will have Amazing Spider-man 1-100 with the 7 annuals and Amazing Fantasy 15 set complete!

https://comics.www.collectors-society.com/registry/comics/PeopleSetDetail.aspx?PeopleSetID=144133

https://comics.www.collectors-society.com/registry/comics/PeopleSetDetail.aspx?PeopleSetID=149785

I know there was some talk last year about getting more points and more recognition for complete sets but nothing has happened.

 

I am in the "Completionist" camp, there just isn't consistency between the sets.  Keep in mind that I inherited the Registry just 2 years ago.  

Any and all coding changes to the Registry are suspended until the ERP system is implemented company wide.  The best I can do right now is the status quo when it comes to scoring:

 

Non-Key books before 2015 are scored 3 (the minimum cover price)

This results in 24 points for a 9.8:

 

 

Non-Key Books after 2015 are scored 4

Which results in 32 for 9.8:

 

Keep in mind that these are Universal Scores.  I have no control over the weighted scores for the other grading categories. i also do not have access to the multipliers within the Universal Scoring table.

 

Keys and Vintage Books are scored according to Overstreet Access 9.2, which is the maximum grade Overstreet Scores.

(Note that our multipliers for the other grades differ from Overstreet.)

 

 

That is the scoring policy in a nutshell. 

Is it perfect? No, it is not.  but its what I have to work with.

As for set consistency, that is #1 on my list when we completely port the registry over from the Collector Society, but that is another ball of wax....

 

So bear with me, I want the Registry to be fun, fair, and accessible to everyone.  

 

 

I will have more to say after the Awards, and I will create a new thread.

 

[Yorick]

On 6/21/2023 at 10:14 AM, jimhouston1 said:

a complete Batman 1-100 set and  Amazing Spider-man 1-100

   

RECOGNIZED!! 

 

[aabruzzese]

What is the true purpose of this Set registry? Are we talking a showcase for people to share the complete or nearly complete run of a specific Series?   Besides bragging rights in the end what are we trying to accomplish with this, as a collector that is just getting back into it I noticed that CGC Grading appeals to many types of people but from what I saw on Ebay and other places like GoCollect emphasis is placed on Slabbed Books , Grade, Count and Average FMV and recent sales. 

So is CGC in of itself and extension of the hobby for Dealers mostly or does a small collection owner really need to go with Slabbing books and trying to get a complete set of a specific title?  I can't imagine that every book in a serires is a Key or have any intrinsic value other than being an Issue #xx in the full run.

I am focusing on Peter Parker Spectacular Spider-Man and trying to get better copies of some of the books I have and acquire some of the one's I am missing. I was thinking of sending in some for Grading but I have to wonder with all the costs involved if the end goal is to keep the books at home vs trying to get the opportune moment to sell them at highest maker price is really worth all the effort.