Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Prince Namor]

Chris also believes that in #3, the Miracle Man was actually the missing Skrull! But because Stan didn't originally like the idea of continuing stories, changes were made to the ending. 

Throughout though, the Miracle Man sure does SOUND like a Skrull... and why would a Hypnotist want to conquer earth? Plus, just like in the previous issue, he's trying to discredit the FF... later on in the next Skrull story (FF #18) we'd learn about the Skrulls ability to hypnotize... acquiring a tank and defeating the FF, he could've recalled the Invasion...

Would Stan really be that afraid to make the story more sinister? We'll hear what Ditko has to say about this in the next chapter (1962)....

[Zonker]

On 12/28/2022 at 9:44 AM, Prince Namor said:

In it's simplest form from Chris Tolworthy's book: For FF #2, we originally see there are four Skrulls (page 4) to match the number of members of the FF, and later we see there are FOUR Skrulls (page 16) that are defeated. So what happened to the fourth Skrull?

He escaped! We can see in the first panel (of page 23) the word 'THIRD' has obviously been changed (and the art must've been altered in the following panel). They mention the Fourth one in the fourth panel but we never saw this - the story was changed... And this is what the other three Skrulls obviously fear - the competent member escaping home and retaliation for failure - so they are hidden as cows.

So why the changes? Stan, liked nice simple stories that anyone could read. It was actually Jack that aimed for the ADULT audience with concepts and ideas that were challenging...

 

I'm not following what you're saying here.  Is it that Kirby originally intended to show the Fourth Skrull escaping out the window, and Stan Lee had him change the artwork so Mr. Fantastic re-captured only the Third Skrull, with the fourth one's escape happening off-camera?  I don't see how this sequence implies Jack wanted a more challenging story that Stan simplified?  

[Prince Namor]

On 12/28/2022 at 1:38 PM, Zonker said:

I'm not following what you're saying here.  Is it that Kirby originally intended to show the Fourth Skrull escaping out the window, and Stan Lee had him change the artwork so Mr. Fantastic re-captured only the Third Skrull, with the fourth one's escape happening off-camera?  I don't see how this sequence implies Jack wanted a more challenging story that Stan simplified?  

That is correct. 

This is just one thing that simplified the story. Kirby wanted the fourth Skrull to escape - the leader of the group - who would continue against the FF in the next issue (as Miracle Man). Stan wanted to tie up all the ends in nice little story. The 4th Skrull became an after thought. And he didn't like the idea of continuing in the next issue. He wanted input from the fans to know if they were happy first. Just like his begging for attention in Amazing Adult Fantasy. 

According to Kirby, when Stan sat down with him over the FF idea, Kirby laid out what he wanted to do over the first TEN issues. In hindsight, it looks as if the FF flying into space (farther than the Russians did), and changing due to the cosmic rays, sent shock waves throughout the universe... the fear to alien races that humans might be able to shape change. (Which if you remember is the key alien technology in Challengers #3. I didn't remember, Chris pointed it out in his book!). 

Stan, as he would throughout the FF series, dumbs down the stories... it's a constant source of frustration that we'd read about LATER in the HIM (Warlock) saga (that Kirby cut short due to his frustrations with Lee's changes), but this went on from day one.

Yes, yes, yes, Lee was a master promoter and his voice blah, blah, blah... but in hindsight, he may've changed things he didn't need to. He came from doing funny books and genre westerns. His scope of storytelling was EXTREMELY limited compared to Kirby. 

...Originally the pictures shown to the Skrulls aren't from Journey Into Mystery, but rather photo stills from monster movies (a realism that Kirby wrote) but Stan changes it - it dulls the menace of the aliens by making them look stupid. It's kinda funny... it highlights the comics Marvel does, but from someone who claims to do comics that 'respect your intelligence'... it's very 'comic book-ish'. It's written for fans. 

It's NOT Modern day Shakespeare. 

Chris Tolworthy goes into more detail in his book. But as you'll see now that Stan actually IS working with Kirby and Ditko and discussing story ideas... it's Stan who'll try and steer away from smart stories (ADULT stories) and sci-fi in FF, and request Ditko do LESS of the supporting characters and Peter Parker in Spider-man... we're going to hear both Kirby AND Ditko speak about how THEY saw it happen...

[Zonker]

On 12/27/2022 at 6:13 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

So it seems that the story was originally about atomic power. Kirby may have confirmed this in a later interview: 

“That's how the Fantastic Four began, with an atomic explosion and its effect on the characters.” (The Groth TCJ interview)

 

I remember reading that interview and thinking Kirby must have been confusing the FF with the X-Men.  But this explanation does make sense given the context you're laying out for FF #1.  And if they re-worked FF #1 to that extent, it makes me want to reconsider those theories you mentioned earlier in the thread about the first few Human Torch Strange Tales possibly pre-dating FF #1, and reworked into continuity after the fact.  

[Prince Namor]

On 12/28/2022 at 2:50 PM, Zonker said:

I remember reading that interview and thinking Kirby must have been confusing the FF with the X-Men.  But this explanation does make sense given the context you're laying out for FF #1.  And if they re-worked FF #1 to that extent, it makes me want to reconsider those theories you mentioned earlier in the thread about the first few Human Torch Strange Tales possibly pre-dating FF #1, and reworked into continuity after the fact.  

Yeah, I'm not sure I go with that entire theory, but I believe it's very possible there was at least one, 5 page start to a story (ST #103) that looks exactly like something Kirby would do. But... Marvel Zombie's somehow give Lee or Goodman credit for it.

This spin-off series no doubt the result of publisher Martin Goodman feeling that "The Human Torch" has been good luck for him, dating all the way back to Marvel Comics #1 (October 1939).

The truth is Goodman had no interest in comics, especially something from 20+ years ago that had failed once before. He wasn't nostalgic for Marvel aComics #1 - that's just not how publishers think - but it IS how fanboys think. And Stan hadn't touched a superhero story since the war ended. KIRBY however, had experience with teen age superheroes - Bucky Barnes, the Young Allies, Boy Commandos, Boys' Ranch, Speedboy... rebooting the Human Torch was almost certainly his idea, that got worked into the FF. 

[Prince Namor]

And finally (I think), some quotes from Jack Kirby on the Birth of the Marvel Universe and the Marvel Method. Many people think Jack waited until late in life to comment on these things, but as you'll see... he spoke about it as early as 1966...

On the Fantastic Four:

Was the concept of the Fantastic Four your idea or Stan Lee’s?

JACK:It was my idea. It was my idea to do it the way it was; my idea to develop it the way it was. I’m not saying that Stan had nothing to do with it. Of course he did.

We talked things out. As things went on, I began to work at home and I no longer came up to the office. I developed all the stuff at home and just sent it in. I had to come up with new ideas to help the strip sell. I was faced with the frustration of having to come up with new ideas and then having them taken from me.

FROM Bruce Hamilton Interview,  originally published in Rocket’s Blast ComiCollector #81 (1970)

[Prince Namor]

On the Fantastic Four:

JACK: We did the first one for Marvel called The Young Allies and from that, we hopped to The Boy Commandos, and they did very well. I believe they were the forerunners of many of the adult teams of comic heroes that we have today. We did use three or four characters in unison, and I believe that strips today like The Fantastic Four or Challengers of the Unknown are probably the descendants of that type of strip.

FROM the 1966 Keynote speech at New York Comicon (printed in TJKC #43 (Summer 2005)

[Prince Namor]

On the Fantastic Four:

SHERMAN: As the fifties drew to a close, the super-heroes began to return. When you began the Challengers of the Unknown, were you striving more for a super-hero rebirth or for breaking into science fiction and adventure material more?

KIRBY: The issues I did were still formative and I can’t answer for what DC did with them. But they were heading for the super-hero image when I left. In many ways, they were the predecessors of the FF.

FROM Steve Sherman, 1975, reprinted in The Jack Kirby Collector #8, January 1996. (Originally presented in the 1975 Comic Art Convention program book.)

[Prince Namor]

On the Marvel Method:

Well, I feel the kind of things we do for comics are films and movies. I see myself competing with the movie camera, and I see myself creating a movie. I must admit it’s a kind of a John Henry operation; and I’ll talk over a story with Stan Lee, but the plot has to be worked out here. It’s got to be worked out on paper, the gimmicks have to be worked out, and everything has to dovetail. So it’s all worked out here, and I write the captions for the motivation of the story in the margin of the paper. Then it goes to Marvel, and the dialogue is written in, and the story is sent on to the letterer and inker, and processed down to the engraver.

FROM 1969 Interview by Shel Dorf and Rich Rubenfeld - Part 1 Published in TJKC #36 (Summer 2002)

[Prince Namor]

On the Marvel Method:

JACK: Well, in the case of Marvel, most of the plots, I handle myself. It’s easy enough to do it after 30 years. I would discuss it with Stan, I would tell him what I was going to put in it, and it was either approved, or I would change it, you know, to maybe further the plot. In my case, it was done that way. I’ve always done my own stories. I’ve never done anything else.

FROM SDCC Speech 1970, one month before Jimmy Olsen #133

[Prince Namor]

On the Marvel Method:

EXCELSIOR: Do you plot the Fantastic Four stories by drawing the basic story and then having Stan write the dialogue?
JACK: This is Stanley’s editorial policy. As a Marvel artist, I carry it out.

FROM Interview originally published in Excelsior #1, 1968

[Prince Namor]

On the Stan Lee:

Stan Lee, I guess, came to Marvel when I was doing Captain America in the 1940s. He was a young fellow, and we were just nodding acquaintances. He was very nice, certainly, and we were nice to each other; we got along. That was about it; there was no evidence that we’d ever get together in any way as editor and artist. It just happened that way, that’s all; I came back to Marvel and Stan Lee was editor. I went to work for Stan Lee, and whatever Stan Lee’s policies are, they’re my policies. Whatever kind of a job Stan Lee wants done, I will do that job. I feel that’s the artist’s job; to cooperate with the policy of the publishing house. I’ve always done that.

FROM 1969 Interview by Shel Dorf and Rich Rubenfeld - Part 2 - Published in TJKC #37 (Fall 2002)

[Prince Namor]

On the Stan Lee:

PITTS: Now, Stan has said many times that he conceived Spider-Man and gave it to you and that he turned down the version you came up with because it was too “heroic” and “larger than life”-looking for what he had in mind.

KIRBY: That’s a contradiction and a blatant untruth.

PITTS: What input, then, did Stan Lee have in creating Spider-Man and these other characters?

KIRBY: Stan Lee had never created anything up to that moment. And here was Marvel with characters like the Sub-Mariner, which they never used. Stan Lee didn’t create that; that was created by Bill Everett. Stan Lee didn’t create the Human Torch; that was created by Carl Burgos. It was the artists that were creating everything. Stan Lee– I don’t know if he had other duties… or whatever he did there…

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

[Prince Namor]

On the Stan Lee:

KIRBY: What I’m trying to do is give the atmosphere up at Marvel. I’m not trying to attack Stan Lee. I’m not trying to put any onus on Stan Lee. All I’m saying is; Stan Lee was a busy man with other duties who couldn’t possibly have the time to suddenly create all these ideas that he’s said he created. And I can tell you that he never wrote the stories– although he wouldn’t allow us to write the dialogue in the balloons. He didn’t write my stories.

PITTS: You plotted and he did the dialogue?

KIRBY: You can call it plotted. I call it -script. I wrote the -script and I drew the story. I mean, there was nothing on the first or second page that Stan Lee ever knew would go there. But I knew what would go there. I knew how to begin the story. I wrote it in my house. Nobody was there around to tell me. I worked strictly in my house; I always did. I worked in a small basement in Long Island.

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

[Prince Namor]

On the Stan Lee:

I’m not interested in the ego trip of creating or not creating. I’m interested in selling a magazine. Rock-bottom, I sell magazines. I’m a thorough professional who does his job. In the Army, I remember, Stan Lee was in the photographic division. They gave him a whole movie studio– this is the story he told me. And Stan Lee didn’t produce one picture. I would’ve produced five. It’s the will to create that tells the truth.

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

[Prince Namor]

On the Stan Lee:

I’m not interested in the ego trip of creating or not creating. I’m interested in selling a magazine. Rock-bottom, I sell magazines. I’m a thorough professional who does his job. In the Army, I remember, Stan Lee was in the photographic division. They gave him a whole movie studio– this is the story he told me. And Stan Lee didn’t produce one picture. I would’ve produced five. It’s the will to create that tells the truth.

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

[Prince Namor]

On the Stan Lee:

PITTS: It’s quite a stupid question, in light of all you’ve said, but let me ask it anyway: can you see yourself working with Stan Lee ever again?

KIRBY: No. No. It’ll never happen. No more than I would work with the S.S. Stan Lee is what he is. I’m not going to change him, I’m not going to dehumanize him, I’m not going to default him. He has his own dreams and he has his own way of getting them. I have my own dreams but I get them my own way. We’re two different people. I feel that he’s in direct opposition to me.

There’s no way I could reach the S.S.. I tried to reach them. I used to talk with them and say, “Hey, fellas, you don’t believe in all this compostable_fertilizer.” And they said, “Oh, yes, we do.” They were profound beliefs. They became indoctrinated.

And Stan Lee’s the same way. He’s indoctrinated one way and he’s gonna live that way. He’s gonna benefit from it in some ways and I think he’ll lose in others. But he doesn’t have to believe me. Nobody else’ll believe me if they don’t want to, but that’s my opinion. I can only speak for myself.

PITTS: Are you claiming that ego has run away with him?

KIRBY: Not ego. Oh, there’s ego in it, but he’s running away from some deep pain or hurt and I don’t know what it is. I feel sympathy for him in that respect. I have an idea of what it is, but it’s not my right to analyze Stan Lee.

If be wants to lionize himself or if he wants others to lionize him or if he feels a lack of something, it’s a problem.

FROM Conversations with Comic Book Creators by Leonard Pitts Jr. 1986/87

[Prince Namor]

On the Stan Lee:

KIRBY: I tried to work it out with Stan [Lee], to hint about superheroes. There were a few still going but they didn’t have the big audience they had. There was a thing I was involved in, The Fly, which got a reaction and because of that I told Stan that there might be a hope for superheroes. “Why don’t we try Captain America again?” I kept harping on it and Marvel was quiet in those days, like every other office, and then things began to pick up and gain momentum.

Mark Hebert, conducted early 1969, appeared in The Nostalgia Journal #30, November 1976, and #31, December 1976.

[Mmehdy]

I think Jack Kirby was a old school straight shooter.....but Stan did write as evidenced by the FF 13 page I witnessed him signing to the owner  with HIS dialog written on the side in his writing...interesting...Upon reflection, I think they thought  they are both right....LOL... I would bank money Kirby had 75% of the creative force edited Stan with more Jack early on.....what good is a bad edited movie...then again what could  Stan really edit after Kirby gave him the whole thing. Challengers is to close, to similar and is compelling evidence that Jack did have creative input rather SL drafting this giant ---script etc etc.. Again with the new STAN LEE 2023 Disney Plus  100 year old special which was just teased...somebody should link that....I will not be surprised if they give him credit for creating Captain America ...LOL but my point is you should contact the creators of this special and ask that some of your great research be included to make this factually accurate....nobody really has put together like you have the clearest picture of what really happened in the who's did what to create the marvel universe.  Can some one link that........to. be released in 2023!

Edited December 29, 2022 by Mmehdy

[Zonker]

On 12/29/2022 at 12:50 PM, Mmehdy said:

I think Jack Kirby was a old school straight shooter.....but Stan did write as evidenced by the FF 13 page I witnessed him signing to the owner  with HIS dialog written on the side in his writing...interesting...Upon reflection, I think they thought  they are both right....LOL... I would bank monty Kirby had 75% of the creative force edited Stan with more Jack early on.....what good is a bad edited movie...then again what could  Stan really edit after Kirby gave him the whole thing. Challengers is to close, to similar and is compelling evidence that Jack did have creative input rather SL drafting this giant ---script etc etc.. Again with the new STAN LEE 2023 Disney Plus  100 year old special which was just teased...somebody should link that....I will not be surprised if they give him credit for creating Captain America ...LOL but my point is you should contact the creators of this special and ask that some of your great research be included to make this factually accurate....nobody really has put together like you have the clearest picture of what really happened in the who's did what to create the marvel universe.  Can some one link that........to. be released in 2023!

Yes, I had thought about posting this earlier, but feared the possible resulting aneurysm to this thread's participants.