Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Prince Namor]

No one's disputing that Stan's dialogue was different and for many, exciting and played a part in the success. I tend to think his constant sucking up to fans who took it all so seriously played a larger part - his promoting of it all. 

But without the artists writing the stories, Stan has no place to put his 'dialogue'. He used the same kind of dialogue for years on his dumb blonde books - no success... this thread shows Kirby was writing the type of stories that would dominate the Marvel Silver Age before he EVER had to allow Lee to put his name on the work. 

Stan spent his entire career NOT writing. He asked others for ideas. He used ghost writers. He solicited ideas from professional publications, and he used the artists to actually do the work of structuring and writing of the stories. He took credit for THEIR work that HE didn't do. He recycled Kirby ideas to OTHER artists!!!

That's the TRUTH of his entire career. 

Losing Kirby and needing Romita to do the art director job was the end of Stan's 'writing' career. As great an artist as Buscema was, he couldn't write stories like Kirby.

People make a lot of New Gods being canceled. Between New Gods, Forever People, Mister Miracle and Jimmy Olsen - Kirby got 44 issues to begin his New Universe. But DC editors didn't 'get' it. Kirby had resentment from others for his special treatment. DC would tell him to do something more mainstream - he did - Kamandi which he ran for 37 of his own issues. 

Stan Lee who could print whatever he wanted by the late 60's couldn't keep the Silver Surfer going. Sales had to be so bad that he had no excuse but to end it after just 18 issues. The writing on it is just so bad - the dialogue is so silly and over wrought - THIS is Stan on his own. The art is great, but it's not enough to save it. With all that power and control... he couldn't even make it to 20 issues....

AND... He solicited the origin of the Silver Surfer from fans!!! He didn't even write THAT himself!

Again, Kirby was successful without Stan, but Stan struggled without someone to come up with ideas and stories for him. 

[Zonker]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

You can't rewrite history by judging the past by today's standards.

  

I have a certain amount of sympathy for this view.  After all, it has always been Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse.  It was Li'l Abner by Al Capp, even when it was being drawn by Frank Frazetta!  But as today's standards evolved, Stan had plenty of opportunity to more generously revise the record-- certainly after Disney settled with the Kirby estate-- and he never really took it. 

[KirbyJack]

I do hear a lot about how “bad” Kirby’s dialogue was on the Fourth World books. But even today, when DC needs a big stage, it’s Apocalypse, parademons, and Darkseid. 
    
More important than art or writing to making comics are ideas. Even when Kirby was past his peak as a draftsman, he never lost his gift to create. 

[Prince Namor]

On 3/12/2023 at 1:37 PM, Zonker said:

I have a certain amount of sympathy for this view.  After all, it has always been Walt Disney's Mickey Mouse.  It was Li'l Abner by Al Capp, even when it was being drawn by Frank Frazetta!  But as today's standards evolved, Stan had plenty of opportunity to more generously revise the record-- certainly after Disney settled with the Kirby estate-- and he never really took it. 

Exactly. Stan DOUBLED DOWN on his BS.

He said HE created everything and then just assigned an artist. And in the past when Stan had said, "Jack was good enough that at times I didn't need to even give him an idea, he'd do it on his own", it was all just a lie to make the artist 'feel better'.

How can the guy who wrote "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility..." be the villain who does THAT?

(Actually he didn't even write THAT himself - he took it from somewhere else...)

Edited March 12, 2023 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:27 AM, mrc said:

You can't rewrite history by judging the past by today's standards.   

a) No one is rewriting history. Stan's lies are being corrected. The history wasn't told properly.

and b) The standards of the past were actually HIGHER to not be dishonest and ripoff someone else - ESPECIALLY someone who helped make YOU successful. It's TODAY's lower standards that tend to accept Stan's mirmah. 

[Dr. Haydn]

Sure feels like talking to the wall sometimes, doesn't it?

 

[Prince Namor]

On 3/12/2023 at 8:32 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Sure feels like talking to the wall sometimes, doesn't it?

Yes. 
 

Not sure why they bother. They've made up their minds. They're not interested in facts. They want to believe it is the way they've always believed. 
 

This isn't the place for them. 

[CGC Mike]

I just wanted to say that this is a public forum, and everyone is allowed to share their opinion.  I feel this thread is on the edge of moderation having to step in. Lets let everyone speak their mind, as long as there are no violations of the terms of use.  This is a discussion forum.  

[Prince Namor]

On 3/12/2023 at 9:20 PM, CGC Mike said:

I just wanted to say that this is a public forum, and everyone is allowed to share their opinion.  I feel this thread is on the edge of moderation having to step in. Lets let everyone speak their mind, as long as there are no violations of the terms of use.  This is a discussion forum.  

Could you be specific as to what you see as moderation needing to step in? 

[CGC Mike]

On 3/13/2023 at 1:56 AM, Prince Namor said:

On 3/12/2023 at 9:20 PM, CGC Mike said:

I just wanted to say that this is a public forum, and everyone is allowed to share their opinion.  I feel this thread is on the edge of moderation having to step in. Lets let everyone speak their mind, as long as there are no violations of the terms of use.  This is a discussion forum.  

Could you be specific as to what you see as moderation needing to step in? 

I would like to see others have the ability to give their opinions, without the concern of being quickly shot down as being wrong.  People have submitted reports regarding this.  As I mentioned, this is the discussion forum.  Otherwise, this needs to be brought to the journal section.  Keep a more open mind going forward, when others try to participate in this thread.  

[Prince Namor]

On 3/13/2023 at 7:55 AM, CGC Mike said:

I would like to see others have the ability to give their opinions, without the concern of being quickly shot down as being wrong.  People have submitted reports regarding this.  As I mentioned, this is the discussion forum.  Otherwise, this needs to be brought to the journal section.  Keep a more open mind going forward, when others try to participate in this thread.  

[jsilverjanet]

never understood the love for Stan Lee

 

[Jeffro.]

On 3/13/2023 at 9:34 AM, jsilverjanet said:

never understood the love for Stan Lee

 

Hero worship is a real thing and god forbid anyone tries to paint someone's hero in a light that's anything other than unquestionably flattering. People need to look at all the sides and not just the ones they want to look at and when it comes to Stan, there is most definitely another side. After all, he was a flawed human being just like the rest of us. 

 

[jsilverjanet]

[bc]

I was cataloging/analyzing the Job Codes for the Atlas Pre- and Post-Implosion period last year and noticed "discrepancies" between various sources related to the scripting duties. There are several long posts over in the "Pre- Hero Marvels!!!!" thread starting on pages 647 & 648 (June 6-9, 2022) that documents my findings & sources.

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/29590-pre-hero-marvels/page/647/#comments

(at about that same time period, this thread "series" was just starting)

Does the GCD & CGC give Stan scripting credits he wasn't involved with during this period? Absolutely YES.

 

Looked for the contract between Atlas and IND to try and root out the truthfulness of the "only 8 books per month" lore, but have never found it. As a business owner, I approve contracts for a period of X years. If things are going well after X years, contracts are often revised (if they went bad, they are likely cancelled). Can't believe a contract signed in 1957 would dictate a term of 10 years without a revision/out clause. If I ran IND, I'd be worried about Atlas' ability to pay my invoices on a monthly basis directly after the Implosion. If Atlas did manage to pay their bills on-time (a.k.a., a decent customer), I see no reason to believe that IND wouldn't incrementally revise the contract to allow more titles per month (which makes IND more $$$) - which explains the gradual increase in Marvel's monthly line up from '57-'67).

 

  What I took from it all is that Kirby & Ditko provided a wealth of opportunity for Stan to capitalize on as the "Marvel Age of Comics". Without Jack & Steve, Stan would have no real legacy to the general public other than the dumb blonde books and a couple of plot-twist text stories. But without Stan, Jack & Steve may have never had the chance to unleash these ideas & concepts to the embryonic and malleable Marvel Comics. It took the convergence of these 3 very different personalities & skill sets (at the right time) to craft, evolve and market a unified ethos to the marketplace which is now embedded in Pop Culture history.

-bc

[Dr. Haydn]

Whatever his reasons at the time, Stan Lee certainly deserves some credit for giving Kirby a forum (from 1958 to early 1961) to create stories with a minimum of interference. DC didn't give Kirby the same freedom, and his contemporary work for them seems comparatively bland, at least to my eyes.

[Dr. Haydn]

On 3/14/2023 at 12:02 AM, shadroch said:

IT MUST BE TRUE.  Not only did he post it on the internet, but it was in CAPS. 

What more PROOF do you need?

This thread seems to be arriving at similar conclusions to Michael Vassallo's history of Stan Lee (published shortly after Lee's death) on the Atlas Tales site. To make a long story short, Vassallo points out (illustrated with hundreds of pages of comics) what Stan was known for (and good at) in the pre-Marvel age: teen humor and westerns. During this time, Jack Kirby developed a reputation in the field for superheroes, mythological figures, science fiction, and romance. If you look at the direction that the company took following Kirby's return in 1958, notice which genres thrived (first sci-fi, then superheroes) versus what slowly disappears (teen humor, romance---westerns, admittedly, hung on a lot longer), you can make a reasonable guess as to which of these gentlemen was Silver Age Marvel's driving force. Vassallo lets you draw your own conclusions from the vast amount of primary evidence he shows (with nary an "all caps" in sight), but if you look at the Kirby-Lee run on Fantastic Four, you can decide for yourself which thematic elements and genres were the most prominent contributors to the book's overall success.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Dr. Haydn
"to" in place of "two"

[trmoore54]

On 11/21/2022 at 11:00 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS FEBRUARY 1961

In February, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for the final 5 page story in Tales of Suspense #17. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

First Prince...what an amazingly FANTASTIC job you are doing with this thread.  I am binge-reading as if this were the hottest new series on Apple+  Takes me back to when I was a kid (between 6-10 years old which would be 1961 to 1965 my mom's best friend we called her Aunt Betty but she was not a real blood aunt family-wise...she had 8 kids, 6 boys and 2 girls and we would go to their house for dinner or something at least once a month and the guys had ALL THE COMICS!!  Everything...Marvel, DC, Dell, Funny Animals, Richie Rich and all those, you name it and they would give us like a couple dozen comics they had already read to take home with us...we were pretty poor and I wouldn't start buying comics off the rack for another year or two.  But loved 'em all back then.  Of course Marvel would completely take over my mindset.

So wanted to dish the kudos but tagging to this particular issue is incredible and worth mentioning...the same freaking month even...this story is basically the exact same concept at FEB 61 JIM 68 SPRAGG story.  Pretty bold (stupid?) and trippy.

Edited May 19, 2023 by trmoore54

[trmoore54]

On 12/5/2022 at 5:40 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1961

Fantastic Four #1 - Just the way Jack could express a feeling with how he drew something or lit a scene... or the way he staged a panel... In neither of these are their huge action sequences and yet they are full of emotion... what Kirby could do quietly (which is under rated) or loudly (which is what is primarily focused on in his work, by Stan especially), he was a master storyteller...

It's interesting and  different than the original idea that only Sue Storm would turn invisible and obviously not her clothes.  But that wouldn't suit the idea as well if you could still see her clothes, wouldn't be as useful...as effective of a super-power.  So it get it.  Some things are just best left unexplained LOL. 

[Zonker]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:31 AM, trmoore54 said:

It's interesting and  different than the original idea that only Sue Storm would turn invisible and obviously not her clothes.  But that wouldn't suit the idea as well if you could still see her clothes, wouldn't be as useful...as effective of a super-power.  So it get it.  Some things are just best left unexplained LOL. 

Amusing to consider the fits that the Comics Code would have if every time Sue used her powers, she first had to disrobe (even off-panel).   And no way for Kirby to safely indicate what she was doing on-panel.  Our largely pre-teen and teenaged boy audience would have to only imagine what she looked like using her powers.   That's taking "leaving something to the imagination" to the extreme!