Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Mmehdy]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:32 PM, Zonker said:

Well, something triggered things in 1961!  

And it wasn't the Elongated Man.   

 

DC ruled as far as comic collectors in 1961....but FF/AF really gave marvel a collectors buzz...maybe it was just time for a new kid on the block.......

[Prince Namor]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:32 PM, Zonker said:

Well, something triggered things in 1961!  

And it wasn't the Elongated Man.   

 

Agreed!

But think about it... which is the more likely scenario...

Kirby kept pushing for superheroes - he's a constant fountain of ideas - Lee sees an opportunity to latch on, and gets Kirby to begrudgingly agree to their partnership, in exchange for him being able to bring as many of his ideas to life as he wants. Stan wants to push forward on it because he's been talking to Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas who keep raving about DC and the JLA. 

OR

Goodman, who hadn't had success with superheroes in 15 years, on the whim of a rep from Independent News, decides to have Stan do a comic based on a superhero team that's a moderately successful seller for DC. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:20 PM, Mmehdy said:

DC ruled as far as comic collectors in 1961....but FF/AF really gave marvel a collectors buzz...maybe it was just time for a new kid on the block.......

In so many ways yes...

In 1961... JFK, Bay of Pigs, Civil Rights, the Space Race, the world was changing...

American's were becoming more educated as the struggle to compete with Russia's space program continued to ramp up. The same old stories weren't going to cut it for many... they wanted something new and different and exciting...

Edited December 20, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Zonker]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:18 AM, Prince Namor said:

Goodman, who hadn't had success with superheroes in 15 years, on the whim of a rep from Independent News, decides to have Stan do a comic based on a superhero team that's a moderately successful seller for DC. 

And see, that is the central disagreement we have.  In terms of what is copy-able by Goodman & Lee, I don't think you can say the JLA is only moderately successful in 1961.

I think you're using Comichron data, so here is their top 13 for 1961:

1. Uncle Scrooge- maybe Goodman & Lee could have tried a duck book, but without Carl Barks and the Walt Disney name on the cover, probably not likely to succeed.  Not sure ducks were really in Ditko's or Kirby's wheelhouses.

2-5 Superman books- not copyable, IP locked up by litigation-happy DC

6 Tarzan- not copyable, someone else's IP

7 Batman- not copyable, IP

8-10 More Superman books, not copyable  

11 Archie - they are already attempting to copy this, aren't they? 

12 Turok - definite potential to copy!  I bet a knock-off book of, say, Vikings versus Dinosaurs would have been right up Kirby's alley!  

13 JLA

If you are correct that Kirby has been pushing to do super-heroes for a while, then the fact that for the first time a non-Superman, non-Batman book is selling in the same ballpark might have been just the incentive needed for the bosses (whether it was Goodman or Lee, doesn't matter) to give it a try.

 

 

[Prince Namor]

There's three things I think you're over looking.

1. The lack of fear Marvel had to copy off of someone else. Homer the Happy Ghost and Melvin the Monster were direct rip offs of Casper the Friendly Ghost and Dennis the Menace. Atlas' whole Horror Line was a direct rip off of EC Comics. Captain America/The Shield. Goodman got sued THREE times for using stories written in other pulps and changing the title and character names and using in his own pulps. This is a man who had absolutely no morale issues with doing what he needed to, in order to sell some books. Ripping off what was successful was his WAY.

If he WAS going to rip off the JLA as an idea, then why didn't they bring back the Young Allies, or have a team up of the All Winners? They'd already had those books - they already had those characters - and would have no fear of being sued by DC. OR... if Goodman was the mastermind behind this... why did they react so quickly to putting Linda Carter Student Nurse out in her own book within a MONTH of Dell and Charlton's student nurse books, but yet they waited 20 months from the first appearance of the JLA in BnB #28 or one year from the first issue of the bi-monthly JLA series?

They were on top of the Student Nurse craze, but slow to react to the super hero revival that'd been going on for 5 years???

2. Martin Goodman wasn't interested in comic books. He was a pretty straight forward guy with simple interests. And in 1961 he still wasn't even sure he was going to keep that part of his publishing business running. When Marvel shut down yet again in October of 1961, what it looks like to me, is that Stan is throwing caution to the wind and forcing a (primarily) Kirby idea through to get sales any way he can. He's desperate, which NOT something he ever wants the public to see. 

Stan's whole Wizard of Oz appearance in this made up story is that everything was planned and calculated as HE and Goodman/Marvel understood the market and decided to be 'creative' in their approach to marketing a new idea. Nothing could be further from the truth. They simply followed Kirby. The same way they did in 1958 when they were ready to shut the doors and he came back and started up 3 new monster/sci-fi books for them. 

3. JLA is nothing like Fantastic Four. It's not a team up of established super heroes. FF is an adventure comic with Sc-fi/monster themes. It's about 4 people who survive a trip into space and acquire super powers, then using them to fight a guy who controls a giant monster. The Challengers would acquire super powers by flying into space (and by other means), but their origin was about 4 people who survive a plane crash and devote their lives to adventure, and then battle a guy who controls a giant monster. FF is just Kirby updating what he does.

All of Marvel's superheroes that followed were direct descendants of monster/sci-fi themes that Kirby had been doing for three years at Marvel and most of his career. Ant Man came from a sci-fi story. Spider-man is one story twist from being a 7 page sci-fi human monster story. The Hulk IS a monster. Thor is an update of the legends Kirby had previously did before. The FF battle the Mole Man and his MONSTERS. The Sktulls are an alien race hell bent on taking over earth, a theme Kirby had been using for the last three years. 

Kirby was just doing what he ALWAYS did. Create NEW ideas. That wasn't Stan Lee. That wasn't Martin Goodman. That wasn't Marvel/Atlas. THEY just COPIED ideas. 

The difference is Stan was there to PROMOTE (primarily) Kirby's idea and add a friendly voice to it. To hold the readers' hands and coddle them. To over stimulate the EXCITEMENT about it. Jack had the same dark themes he always did - he just had a shiny, new voice to help sell it even better. And it hit at just the right time. 

 

Stan of course, coveted that creativity of Kirby, that ownership of content. So his story HAD to focus away from Jack and the Challengers of the Unknown. If Marvel was to survive, they NEEDED Kirby. His books SOLD. His ideas WORKED. But Marvel (i.e. Stan) needed those ideas to be theirs. Ownership of content needed to remain in the family business. And copying, lying, and stealing was the way Marvel/Atlas/Timely had always done business. 

[Zonker]

Quote

1. The lack of fear Marvel had to copy off of someone else. Homer the Happy Ghost and Melvin the Monster were direct rip offs of Casper the Friendly Ghost and Dennis the Menace. Atlas' whole Horror Line was a direct rip off of EC Comics. Captain America/The Shield. Goodman got sued THREE times for using stories written in other pulps and changing the title and character names and using in his own pulps. This is a man who had absolutely no morale issues with doing what he needed to, in order to sell some books. Ripping off what was successful was his WAY.

If he WAS going to rip off the JLA as an idea, then why didn't they bring back the Young Allies, or have a team up of the All Winners? They'd already had those books - they already had those characters - and would have no fear of being sued by DC. OR... if Goodman was the mastermind behind this... why did they react so quickly to putting Linda Carter Student Nurse out in her own book within a MONTH of Dell and Charlton's student nurse books, but yet they waited 20 months from the first appearance of the JLA in BnB #28 or one year from the first issue of the bi-monthly JLA series?

They were on top of the Student Nurse craze, but slow to react to the super hero revival that'd been going on for 5 years???

I think the mid-1950s failure of the Cap, Subby & Torch revivals was probably still fresh in everyone's mind, leading them not to go the All-Winners or Young Allies  route.  Though I think they also wanted to have it both ways, as I'll mention below.  They wind up introducing some new-ish super-heroes: 

• The new Human Torch, their own character, but now applying the DC Silver Age formula of keeping the name, but having it be a new person behind the name, with a new origin.  
• Mr. Fantastic, stretching powers by then are pretty much public domain, going back to Plastic Man, but also Elastic Lad (Jimmy Olsen), and yes, the Elongated Man.
• Invisible Girl, following in the footsteps of the Invisible Scarlet O'Neil comic strip, or going all the way back to H. G. Wells if you prefer.
• The Thing, as you note, a first cousin to all Kirby's recent monsters

I was amused to read your write-up about the crazy 1961 mini-boom in Nurse comic books!  I suspect we will find something in 1959-1960 pop culture (a movie or a lady's magazine serial) that Charlton and Marvel were each responding to (TV also saw Dr. Kildare and Ben Casey both launch in 1961!)

And it probably took a while for the JLA success to become obvious to Goodman or Lee.  We have seen how the roll-out of the Silver Age Flash was painfully slow in terms of how long it took for him to graduate to his own book, and by 1961 JLA was still a bi-monthly.  But apparently selling well, compared to other super-heroes without mothers named Martha!

Quote

2. Martin Goodman wasn't interested in comic books. He was a pretty straight forward guy with simple interests. And in 1961 he still wasn't even sure he was going to keep that part of his publishing business running. When Marvel shut down yet again in October of 1961, what it looks like to me, is that Stan is throwing caution to the wind and forcing a (primarily) Kirby idea through to get sales any way he can. He's desperate, which NOT something he ever wants the public to see. 

Stan's whole Wizard of Oz appearance in this made up story is that everything was planned and calculated as HE and Goodman/Marvel understood the market and decided to be 'creative' in their approach to marketing a new idea. Nothing could be further from the truth. They simply followed Kirby. The same way they did in 1958 when they were ready to shut the doors and he came back and started up 3 new monster/sci-fi books for them. 

Maybe.  But if Goodman was keeping comic books around, perhaps only to keep his nephew-in-law employed, you would think he would want them to lose as little money as possible, right?  And you showed us the promotion letter from Independent News.  Perhaps that was a response to FF #1 being an overnight success 3 months' previous, or maybe was it part of some sort of plan to re-focus the comics business corner of Goodman's enterprise? 

 

Quote

3. JLA is nothing like Fantastic Four. It's not a team up of established super heroes. FF is an adventure comic with Sc-fi/monster themes. It's about 4 people who survive a trip into space and acquire super powers, then using them to fight a guy who controls a giant monster. The Challengers would acquire super powers by flying into space (and by other means), but their origin was about 4 people who survive a plane crash and devote their lives to adventure, and then battle a guy who controls a giant monster. FF is just Kirby updating what he does.

That's why it kind of has the ring of truth that someone in the front office (Goodman or Lee) says, "Let's do a JLA me-too."  And then the creative team (Kirby or Kirby/Lee) proceeds to do it their own way.  So that's an explanation for the curious cover copy of FF #1, which makes it sound like these are indeed proven pre-existing characters now banded together for the first time for the low, low, low price of 10 cents!

[Mmehdy]

JLA....on the collector ground that was a hot book, not the splash say FF 4,5,6...had and that is when collectors knew this was something special and was going to LAST....but collectors liked the concept...the tie in at that time for the DC universe...Superman was popular but GL was too. I think both Zonker and you are both right.

 I believe that JLA, in my opinion, has some influence on the creation of FF1...but I do not believe that it was the sole or deciding factor. Again 1961..62 were simply amazing years to collect...we all had the weekly anticipation of what we were going to see next on the newstand. Marvel cira 1962 once it got going would really create a weekly buzz...of what's next. I was very lucky to be with 2 different age groups of collectors. We liked the Kirby monster books, but would in a heartbeat buy a JLA. Rip Hunter Time Master if the cover looked good. That is how marvel created this revolution by upping the game, changing the scripts to more realism and making you not accept whatever came out on the newstand. You would wait to buy if you had a budget for the Marvel books...In term of trading, JLA went 2/1 on the argument that you got some many extra heroes and those JLA covers were fantastic.....

[Prince Namor]

On 12/20/2022 at 11:48 AM, Zonker said:

I think the mid-1950s failure of the Cap, Subby & Torch revivals was probably still fresh in everyone's mind, leading them not to go the All-Winners or Young Allies  route. 

From 7 years ago?

Once again, if you read the comics and follow along, you'll see this again isn't the way Marvel does business. 

My Girl Pearl isn't successful and is cancelled with issue #7, released in June of 1957. Stan brings it back May of 1960. No need to do anything new, they already own the property. That's only a three year gap. 

Two Gun Kid would get cancelled January of 1961. Brought it back August of 1962. Year and a half gap. No need to do anything new, they already own the property.

Rawhide Kid cancelled with #16, May 1957. Brought back March 1960. Three years. No need to do anything new, they already own the property.

Marvel's history wasn't to move on and be creative. It was to reuse and repeat and copy and duplicate. 

If they were copying JLA, it would've been easy to update Cap, Subby and Torch. No need to do anything new, they already own the property. 

That's how we know it was primarily Kirby's idea. Lee probably pushed for the Human Torch to be a part of it, to tie Marvel's ownership into it. 

They'd end up bringing all three back anyway.

On 12/20/2022 at 11:48 AM, Zonker said:

Though I think they also wanted to have it both ways, as I'll mention below.  They wind up introducing some new-ish super-heroes: 

• The new Human Torch, their own character, but now applying the DC Silver Age formula of keeping the name, but having it be a new person behind the name, with a new origin.  
• Mr. Fantastic, stretching powers by then are pretty much public domain, going back to Plastic Man, but also Elastic Lad (Jimmy Olsen), and yes, the Elongated Man.
• Invisible Girl, following in the footsteps of the Invisible Scarlet O'Neil comic strip, or going all the way back to H. G. Wells if you prefer.
• The Thing, as you note, a first cousin to all Kirby's recent monsters

I don't think you can have it both ways. They were either afraid of being sued for copying or they weren't. My guess is, they absolutely were not. Goodman had been sued plenty of times. It was a part of doing business the way HE did business. 

On 12/20/2022 at 11:48 AM, Zonker said:

I was amused to read your write-up about the crazy 1961 mini-boom in Nurse comic books!  I suspect we will find something in 1959-1960 pop culture (a movie or a lady's magazine serial) that Charlton and Marvel were each responding to (TV also saw Dr. Kildare and Ben Casey both launch in 1961!)

Maybe. They still responded to it immediately.

On 12/20/2022 at 11:48 AM, Zonker said:

And it probably took a while for the JLA success to become obvious to Goodman or Lee.  We have seen how the roll-out of the Silver Age Flash was painfully slow in terms of how long it took for him to graduate to his own book, and by 1961 JLA was still a bi-monthly.  But apparently selling well, compared to other super-heroes without mothers named Martha!

Challengers got a series before Flash did because it was a better seller in Showcase. 

Per Bob Beerbohm's interviews with Irwin Donenfeld from 1997-2000: 

From Irwin's perspective he said to me, it was Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown which first showed him the path, via hard sales, for super heroic teams and revivals to be possible. The real-life published facts "on the ground" bear witness that Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown had some six solo issues before Flash 105 hit the stands in 1959. According to Irwin Donenfeld Challengers of the Unknown led directly for Justice League of America to be tested in The Brave and the Bold. As well as Suicide Squad, Sea Devils, Carson, Rip Hunter's time traveling team, etc

On 12/20/2022 at 11:48 AM, Zonker said:

Maybe.  But if Goodman was keeping comic books around, perhaps only to keep his nephew-in-law employed, you would think he would want them to lose as little money as possible, right?  And you showed us the promotion letter from Independent News.  Perhaps that was a response to FF #1 being an overnight success 3 months' previous, or maybe was it part of some sort of plan to re-focus the comics business corner of Goodman's enterprise? 

 

Depends on what you mean by overnight success. For Marvel, certainly. But the FF, throughout the 60's never did better than those JLA numbers and never cracked the Top Ten. 

And that document is post October closing, so yeah, the response to FF is most certainly what led them to start trying again. 

On 12/20/2022 at 11:48 AM, Zonker said:

That's why it kind of has the ring of truth that someone in the front office (Goodman or Lee) says, "Let's do a JLA me-too."  And then the creative team (Kirby or Kirby/Lee) proceeds to do it their own way.  So that's an explanation for the curious cover copy of FF #1, which makes it sound like these are indeed proven pre-existing characters now banded together for the first time for the low, low, low price of 10 cents!

For me it's easy to see the lie...

1. Because Lee changed his story regarding it THREE times. That's what liars do when confronted. 

2. Because the made up story conveniently gives Marvel (Stan) the power over the creation of the FF, which is the goal of the lie.

3. Challengers is what set in motion the team adventure books in the first place. Not Flash, not JLA.

4. AND... ultimately, FANDOM, wants to write the history of comics based mostly around the love of men in spandex, and thus, they prefer Lee's BS.

To me the timeline of events and the information we have on sales tells the real story. 

[Prince Namor]

Most likely scenario of where the JLA thing came from:

Kirby brings in the genesis of FF, an extension of Challengers, in storyboards, pinups, etc.

Lee and Kirby take it to Goodman who still isn't sure/doesn't care. 

Agreement that Human Torch is added to make it more 'Marvel' and Stan will be a part of it

Goodman still isn't sure/doesn't much care

Lee mentions JLA is doing well for DC, says they have nothing lose by trying it

gets the green light, and it does well, prompting Goodman to push forward

[Zonker]

I think we're both just speculating at this point, which is plenty of fun, but we're unlikely to convince each other which of our speculations is more likely.

I did want to clarify this, however:

Quote

I don't think you can have it both ways. They were either afraid of being sued for copying or they weren't. My guess is, they absolutely were not. Goodman had been sued plenty of times. It was a part of doing business the way HE did business. 

I don't think Goodman & co. were "afraid of being sued" in the normal course of business.  I just meant it would not make sense to compare Justice League at 335k sales, and very copy-able in concept, to half-million sellers that were tied directly to Superman or Batman.  Marvel obviously couldn't publish "Superman's Other Girlfriend, Nurse Jane Foster" to copy Lois Lane, right?  And likewise, they couldn't very well publish "Big Super Guy's Pal, Rick Jones," not yet having a Big Super Guy.  

[Prince Namor]

On 12/20/2022 at 2:01 PM, Zonker said:

I think we're both just speculating at this point, which is plenty of fun, but we're unlikely to convince each other which of our speculations is more likely.

I did want to clarify this, however:

I don't think Goodman & co. were "afraid of being sued" in the normal course of business.  I just meant it would not make sense to compare Justice League at 335k sales, and very copy-able in concept, to half-million sellers that were tied directly to Superman or Batman.  Marvel obviously couldn't publish "Superman's Other Girlfriend, Nurse Jane Foster" to copy Lois Lane, right?  And likewise, they couldn't very well publish "Big Super Guy's Pal, Rick Jones," not yet having a Big Super Guy.  

Marvel had no issue copying directly from big sellers:

 

John Severin - TCJ February 14, 2012

 

GROTH: So before you went to Stan Lee after EC went under, you knew him?

SEVERIN: Yeah.

GROTH: And had established something of a working relationship with him?

SEVERIN: Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, while I was working at EC, I wrote him a semi-nasty tongue-in-cheek letter about the fact that all the artists in all of his war books, were tracing panels right out of Harvey's (Kurtzman) books. And I cut out the panels from both books and pasted them down side by side and sent the whole letter to him. So he made a luncheon engagement at Longchamps and explained to me why they were doing that. He said, “I didn't know they were doing that. You know, the artists are imitating the artists at EC with all that military stuff because they find that's good research.” I was just kidding him. I got a nice swordfish steak out of it. I figure, maybe I ought to write some more letters.

GROTH: But you didn't take any serious umbrage at that?

SEVERIN: No. What the heck do I care? The thing was, it got to be ridiculous when, on any given page, there were three panels that were right out of Harvey's stories. It was kind of silly at this point. I just wanted him to know that I had noted this. He's a good guy.

[Mmehdy]

On 12/20/2022 at 10:26 AM, Prince Namor said:

Most likely scenario of where the JLA thing came from:

Kirby brings in the genesis of FF, an extension of Challengers, in storyboards, pinups, etc.

Lee and Kirby take it to Goodman who still isn't sure/doesn't care. 

Agreement that Human Torch is added to make it more 'Marvel' and Stan will be a part of it

Goodman still isn't sure/doesn't much care

Lee mentions JLA is doing well for DC, says they have nothing lose by trying it

gets the green light, and it does well, prompting Goodman to push forward

based upon the evidence so far I think you have nailed it. The Stan Lee synopisis or outline could of come about in two ways...one the most likely is it is a recreation of events after FF became a super hit, not at the start of them,.If not he took Kirbys ideas and ran with them....creating a word for word rendition of Kirbys ideas and story so to speak but I think based upon what how they were working and stan's scripts I see a chicken and egg which came first approach. I agree Goodman does not care for anything other than the bottom  line and still with the unique monster approach to the cover which was their biggest sales numbers they just might of snuck it in the lineup saying it was just another monster book with hero's that  reoccur. Even on #2 the same formula. Issue 3 is where "the first appearance of "the worlds greatest magazine" appears...and that was a tremendous marking step....I cannot wait to see if can fiqure out how this came about and who was mainly responsible. When 3 came board and especially 4,5 and 6...that was the jell that made the book the worlds greatest comic magazine. Please keep up you great thead. As Kids who were collectors the words "adult" and " worlds greatest" really had a impact....by the way.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Mmehdy

[Prince Namor]

If you like comixology, then Amazon has a great sale on until Jan 2nd on many of their Marvel Masterworks books that include a lot of the Atlas Tales Collections... I bought a ton of these today - anywhere from 84 cents to $1.69 (if you have Kindle Unlimited)... it's a great deal!

[mrc]

Merry Christmas

 

 

[Prince Namor]

He lost me at:

Todd McFarlane, "I don't know all the details of it, but..."

 

Dear Todd,

Merry Christmas. 

Love, Neil Gaiman

[Mmehdy]

On 12/25/2022 at 3:22 AM, mrc said:

Merry Christmas

 

 

Only a month by month...issue by issue careful analysis using the microscope you are using is telling the best possible recreation of what really happened. Again we are heading to a major development in the creation of "marvel identity " something that separated the men from the boys...the bold claim of the "worlds greatest comic magazine"...and they delivered it....merry Xmas one and all

PS the work "magazine" was used to elevate it from the ordinary "comic book" which I noticed as a Kid

Edited December 25, 2022 by Mmehdy

[Prince Namor]

I want to mention Chris Tolowrthy's book 'The Lost Jack Kirby stories' The Lost Jack Kirby Stories at Lulu.com If you're a fan of these early stories and the history of Marvel, I HIGHLY recommend you get this book!

It brings up some interesting things... his overall thought process is that:

Kirby wrote a Mole Man story starring a scientist and his daughter Susan, probably intended for Amazing Adventures, that ended the month before FF #1. The Mole Man story was inspired by real stories of underground nuclear testing. But after the Russians beat us into space on April 12, 1961 (Four months before FF #1 - just enough time), Kirby was green lighted to do a superhero series and the emphasis became that...

To start with he notes:

In Fantastic Four #1, page 19, panel 1, Johnny Storm is lost in the dark. Yet, he was supposed to be the human torch. On page 18, the last panel, he has to be rescued from falling. Yet, he is supposed to be able to fly. On page 23, Reed fights the Mole Man using a stick. Yet, he is supposed to have stretching powers. 

Every time the team exhibits powers in the Mole Man story (with two exceptions) they achieve nothing. For example, on page 18, the last panel, Reed forms his body into a parachute. But on page 22, under the exact same circumstances, the Mole Man does not need a parachute. So the power serve no purpose. The story is more exciting without the pointless powers, because the characters are in more danger without them. 

 

[Prince Namor]

Originally, because the story is about atomic testing... THAT is how the team gets its powers. But the Russian space flight, changes that and the intro is created. (Another reason you know its a Kirby driven story - real world scientific/space events playing a part in the story telling)...

Also he points out:

Page 20-21 are added after the fact, and Ben is added to the story. Those are the only two pages where Ben really does anything, after the added opening... he's just sort of crammed into panels. And: 

Next, see how Reed and Johnny wear radiation suits after seeing the valley of diamonds. Why would diamonds give off dangerous radiation? Were they diamonds originally? A close look at the art shows that the diamonds are crudely drawn, whereas Kirby's other art is all of a high quality. And then there is the question of where the atomic power plants went: why would Kirby’s story forget the atomic power plants? Kirby was an expert storyteller. He did not just forget major plot points. So it is possible that the diamonds were drawn over what was originally atomic waste, or the wreckage of atomic power plants. 

Finally, the story ends with a classic mushroom cloud, the iconic image of an atomic explosion. Why would the Mole Man blow up his own island? That makes no sense. But if he had all the fuel and waste from atomic power plants, suddenly the explosion makes sense. This makes a more exciting story, because the team has no powers, and they are in more urgent danger: when Sue bursts in at the end it is because she realises the atomic material is about to explode! No wonder they run! 

So it seems that the story was originally about atomic power. Kirby may have confirmed this in a later interview: 

“That's how the Fantastic Four began, with an atomic explosion and its effect on the characters.” (The Groth TCJ interview)

 

Some great interesting insight!

[Mmehdy]

On 12/27/2022 at 3:13 PM, Prince Namor said:

Originally, because the story is about atomic testing... THAT is how the team gets its powers. But the Russian space flight, changes that and the intro is created. (Another reason you know its a Kirby driven story - real world scientific/space events playing a part in the story telling)...

Also he points out:

Page 20-21 are added after the fact, and Ben is added to the story. Those are the only two pages where Ben really does anything, after the added opening... he's just sort of crammed into panels. And: 

Next, see how Reed and Johnny wear radiation suits after seeing the valley of diamonds. Why would diamonds give off dangerous radiation? Were they diamonds originally? A close look at the art shows that the diamonds are crudely drawn, whereas Kirby's other art is all of a high quality. And then there is the question of where the atomic power plants went: why would Kirby’s story forget the atomic power plants? Kirby was an expert storyteller. He did not just forget major plot points. So it is possible that the diamonds were drawn over what was originally atomic waste, or the wreckage of atomic power plants. 

Finally, the story ends with a classic mushroom cloud, the iconic image of an atomic explosion. Why would the Mole Man blow up his own island? That makes no sense. But if he had all the fuel and waste from atomic power plants, suddenly the explosion makes sense. This makes a more exciting story, because the team has no powers, and they are in more urgent danger: when Sue bursts in at the end it is because she realises the atomic material is about to explode! No wonder they run! 

So it seems that the story was originally about atomic power. Kirby may have confirmed this in a later interview: 

“That's how the Fantastic Four began, with an atomic explosion and its effect on the characters.” (The Groth TCJ interview)

 

Some great interesting insight!

WOW....after 60 plus years the real story is coming out...just wow

[Prince Namor]

In it's simplest form from Chris Tolworthy's book: For FF #2, we originally see there are four Skrulls (page 4) to match the number of members of the FF, and later we see there are FOUR Skrulls (page 16) that are defeated. So what happened to the fourth Skrull?

He escaped! We can see in the first panel (of page 23) the word 'THIRD' has obviously been changed (and the art must've been altered in the following panel). They mention the Fourth one in the fourth panel but we never saw this - the story was changed... And this is what the other three Skrulls obviously fear - the competent member escaping home and retaliation for failure - so they are hidden as cows.

So why the changes? Stan, liked nice simple stories that anyone could read. It was actually Jack that aimed for the ADULT audience with concepts and ideas that were challenging...