Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Prince Namor]

On 12/18/2022 at 11:08 PM, Zonker said:

That first letter is from subsequent 1970s comics artist Alan Weiss, right?

I don't believe so.... I haven't seen anyone with information on it, and as far as I know he was born in Chicago.. the letter is from Las Vegas, Nevada.

On 12/18/2022 at 11:08 PM, Zonker said:

Somewhere Stan Lee said the original intention was to never give the FF super-hero costumes, but they bowed to fan pressure to do so.  Have you already covered that bit, and I've forgotten?  If true, it would be in keeping with the August 1961 decision to self-consciously appeal to an older readership:  No secret identities, no costumes ("kid stuff" says The Thing), and as we saw, the contemporaneous launch of Amazing Adult Fantasy.  

With anything Stan says, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. It conveniently over looks that the Challengers didn't have costumes, but rather flight suits like the FF started out with. He couldn't use THAT as the reason, that'd draw too much attention to Kirby's influence. He DID however show a tendency to bow to reader pressure - it's one of the things that made him so popular. An editor for a major comic publisher who actually listens to the fans and and bends the story to their wishes? He'd certainly show up in much higher in the next Alley Awards...

The 'artiste' in Kirby and Ditko probably saw that as a bit strange... Ditko complains about it a lot in his early 2000 writings. And as much as Lee takes credit for the FF, a HUGELY Sci-Fi series, he was the one who kept trying to get Kirby to dial back the Sci-Fi. 

As far as the 'Amazing Adult Fantasy'... I suspect THIS is the comic he actually speaks of when he talks about his wife Joan telling him to "do stories the way you'd always wanted - what've you got to lose?" bit. But as that title wasn't successful and got cancelled, he just transferred it to the FF. Stan's idea of pulling in ADULT readers didn't succeed, any more than any other comic publishers attempts did. The only adults who read comics, were guys like Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas, who were already reading comics. 

There's no indication that market grew during this time due to Marvel Comics. As the number of comics Marvel sold grew... the number of titles available grew. Some of those (FF, ASM, Thor) had better numbers than anything they'd previously sold in the post-code era, but NONE of them matched the numbers produced by the Top Ten comics throughout the decade. The Batman TV show, at least shows us that specific individual comic book exploded in sales, and because the demographic of that show was prime time, it gives some credibility to the idea that adults bought it, that maybe had never read comics before. 

However, Stan DID do a fantastic job at marketing Marvel as appealing to college students and calling it 'pop art', but just because he says it did, doesn't mean it was. Plenty of college students read Archie and DC and other comics as well. 

None of this is meant to downplay the excitement that these issues of Marvel had at the time or would have thru the 60's. Those who liked Marvel Comics, REALLY liked Marvel Comics. And once Marvel, as a company, understood what fans wanted - they catered to it like no one else ever had before...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961

For Amazing Adult Fantasy #10 - Stan Lee and Steve Ditko had 5 stories again in this issue, signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on all 5 splash pages. Ditko pencils and inks the cover that is NOT signed. The contents page shows the names of the 5 stories and that is signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko. The final page shows what is coming for the next issue... 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961

For Amazing Adult Fantasy #10 - The first story in the issue is signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash page, but it's actually a story 'lifted' from Astonishing #9 in 1952.

Story ONE:

Edited December 19, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY

Here's the original story from 1952's Astonishing #9. Writer is unknown, but the artist is Harry Lazarus, inked by George Klien. Stan signed a story earlier in the book. The cover is by Russ Heath with those wonderful colors by Stan Goldberg. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961

For Amazing Adult Fantasy #10 - Signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash page.

Story TWO:

Edited December 19, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961

For Amazing Adult Fantasy #10 - Signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash page. The 3rd story in each of these issues is a 3 pager (2 pager if you don't count the splash, which doesn't add to the actual telling). Lots of taking planet panels...

Story THREE:

Edited December 19, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961

For Amazing Adult Fantasy #10 - Signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash page. This story borrows a plot device used many times in these type of stories. 

Story FOUR:

Edited December 19, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1961

For Amazing Adult Fantasy #10 - Signed Stan Lee & S. Ditko on the splash page.

Story FIVE:

[Prince Namor]

Something was going on at Marvel, as Goodman now seemed committed to making things happen... Did the reaction and sales of the Fantastic Four, combined with Kirby showing his ideas for other books (not to mention the price increase to 12 cents) cause Goodman to make a solid effort to get things really going again?

Edited December 19, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Zonker]

On 12/19/2022 at 2:50 AM, Prince Namor said:

I don't believe so.... I haven't seen anyone with information on it, and as far as I know he was born in Chicago.. the letter is from Las Vegas, Nevada.

With anything Stan says, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. It conveniently over looks that the Challengers didn't have costumes, but rather flight suits like the FF started out with. He couldn't use THAT as the reason, that'd draw too much attention to Kirby's influence. He DID however show a tendency to bow to reader pressure - it's one of the things that made him so popular. An editor for a major comic publisher who actually listens to the fans and and bends the story to their wishes? He'd certainly show up in much higher in the next Alley Awards...

The 'artiste' in Kirby and Ditko probably saw that as a bit strange... Ditko complains about it a lot in his early 2000 writings. And as much as Lee takes credit for the FF, a HUGELY Sci-Fi series, he was the one who kept trying to get Kirby to dial back the Sci-Fi. 

As far as the 'Amazing Adult Fantasy'... I suspect THIS is the comic he actually speaks of when he talks about his wife Joan telling him to "do stories the way you'd always wanted - what've you got to lose?" bit. But as that title wasn't successful and got cancelled, he just transferred it to the FF. Stan's idea of pulling in ADULT readers didn't succeed, any more than any other comic publishers attempts did. The only adults who read comics, were guys like Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas, who were already reading comics. 

There's no indication that market grew during this time due to Marvel Comics. As the number of comics Marvel sold grew... the number of titles available grew. Some of those (FF, ASM, Thor) had better numbers than anything they'd previously sold in the post-code era, but NONE of them matched the numbers produced by the Top Ten comics throughout the decade. The Batman TV show, at least shows us that specific individual comic book exploded in sales, and because the demographic of that show was prime time, it gives some credibility to the idea that adults bought it, that maybe had never read comics before. 

However, Stan DID do a fantastic job at marketing Marvel as appealing to college students and calling it 'pop art', but just because he says it did, doesn't mean it was. Plenty of college students read Archie and DC and other comics as well. 

None of this is meant to downplay the excitement that these issues of Marvel had at the time or would have thru the 60's. Those who liked Marvel Comics, REALLY liked Marvel Comics. And once Marvel, as a company, understood what fans wanted - they catered to it like no one else ever had before...

Steve Englehart mentions visiting Weiss in Las Vegas in Englehart's introduction to one of the Marvel Masterworks (I have it from the Cap Omnibus Vol 3)

 

The story of the FF uniforms as a result of reader demand is told by John Wells in American Comic Book Chronicles, with a pdf preview available online from TwoMorrows (where I found this excerpt).  It may not have been Stan's story, we don't know:

And my theory was never that Stan successfully sold his comic books to adults.  Instead, prompted by comments here from Mitch, I am wondering if putting "Adult" in a comic book title, and those differences in emphasis found in the early FF's, made it appear they were written for an older audience, and therefore perhaps more appealing to high-schoolers (or younger).  If The Thing is too cool for kid stuff, then maybe your typical 13-year old boy in 1961 no longer has to worry that reading comic books makes him look too kiddish.  

[Mmehdy]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:18 AM, Zonker said:

Steve Englehart mentions visiting Weiss in Las Vegas in Englehart's introduction to one of the Marvel Masterworks (I have it from the Cap Omnibus Vol 3)

 

The story of the FF uniforms as a result of reader demand is told by John Wells in American Comic Book Chronicles, with a pdf preview available online from TwoMorrows (where I found this excerpt).  It may not have been Stan's story, we don't know:

And my theory was never that Stan successfully sold his comic books to adults.  Instead, prompted by comments here from Mitch, I am wondering if putting "Adult" in a comic book title, and those differences in emphasis found in the early FF's, made it appear they were written for an older audience, and therefore perhaps more appealing to high-schoolers (or younger).  If The Thing is too cool for kid stuff, then maybe your typical 13-year old boy in 1961 no longer has to worry that reading comic books makes him look too kiddish.  

Boots on the ground at the time these books were released, my parents best friends son was 13 and had the killer comic book collection along with another friend of his, I asked him and his friend  at the time I would say FF9 ish about the "fantastic four" and he confirmed that it was something great and different. I can remember when AF hit the racks....I will say this Kirby cover on AF 15 was amazing 15 times over...looking at Steves  original cover vs Jacks is no contest, both are great but from a rack buyers perspective it is Kirby all the way. That collector valued Amazing Adult Fantasy's at 3/5 to one and FF's at 3 to one..FYI...if you had never seen an "adult" book...you would pay big time, read it and probably shake your head but then convince yourself...this is Adult.....it did look different ,both with the title contents page...making it more a magazine/ adult at least in my mind and the preview pages were  like WOW...this was just stuff that was not done at the time....boots on the ground was sold and felt different. I will say this on behalf of Stan..if he was the one who rejected the Ditko cover and replaced it with Jacks......well that WAS probably his greatest contribution to the marvel universe at up to that time. When that book hit.....it was like an atomic bomb in the collecting community and when Spiderman #1 hit....that was it. It was in my opinion the AF/FF combo that started it all, but it was the FF/SM combo that big banged it to what we have today...

Edited December 19, 2022 by Mmehdy

[Prince Namor]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Zonker said:

Steve Englehart mentions visiting Weiss in Las Vegas in Englehart's introduction to one of the Marvel Masterworks (I have it from the Cap Omnibus Vol 3)

Wow! Maybe it is... I would think somewhere someone would've mentioned it, but I can't recall it. That seems to definitely make it look like it is him!

On 12/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Zonker said:

The story of the FF uniforms as a result of reader demand is told by John Wells in American Comic Book Chronicles, with a pdf preview available online from TwoMorrows (where I found this excerpt).  It may not have been Stan's story, we don't know:

That's Stan's story. Both the letters asking for uniforms and JLA inspired the FF. I like those books though... a lot of great info in them. 

On 12/19/2022 at 10:18 AM, Zonker said:

And my theory was never that Stan successfully sold his comic books to adults.  Instead, prompted by comments here from Mitch, I am wondering if putting "Adult" in a comic book title, and those differences in emphasis found in the early FF's, made it appear they were written for an older audience, and therefore perhaps more appealing to high-schoolers (or younger).  If The Thing is too cool for kid stuff, then maybe your typical 13-year old boy in 1961 no longer has to worry that reading comic books makes him look too kiddish.  

Yeah, I wasn't directing that so much at you as in general. I think your point may be valid. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/19/2022 at 12:53 PM, Mmehdy said:

Boots on the ground at the time these books were released, my parents best friends son was 13 and had the killer comic book collection along with another friend of his, I asked him and his friend  at the time I would say FF9 ish about the "fantastic four" and he confirmed that it was something great and different. I can remember when AF hit the racks....I will say this Kirby cover on AF 15 was amazing 15 times over...looking at Steves  original cover vs Jacks is no contest, both are great but from a rack buyers perspective it is Kirby all the way. That collector valued Amazing Adult Fantasy's at 3/5 to one and FF's at 3 to one..FYI...if you had never seen an "adult" book...you would pay big time, read it and probably shake your head but then convince yourself...this is Adult.....it did look different ,both with the title contents page...making it more a magazine/ adult at least in my mind and the preview pages were  like WOW...this was just stuff that was not done at the time....boots on the ground was sold and felt different. I will say this on behalf of Stan..if he was the one who rejected the Ditko cover and replaced it with Jacks......well that WAS probably his greatest contribution to the marvel universe at up to that time. When that book hit.....it was like an atomic bomb in the collecting community and when Spiderman #1 hit....that was it. It was in my opinion the AF/FF combo that started it all, but it was the FF/SM combo that big banged it to what we have today...

I'm sure there was a lot of excitement around all of those new books. Ultimately, AAF didn't sell well enough to keep it going though... that, in and of itself is NOT what makes a book great or not. But it doesn't hurt... Personally, I think Stan's goal with the success of the FF was to change as many of the books to superheroes as possible...

And I do like the Ditko cover of AF15, but yeah, the Kirby cover is... just great. I don't think it takes a genius to pick Kirby over Ditko for it - how many Monster covers did they actually let Steve do (up until AAF)... three maybe? Stan knew who sold books. He could put 'Another gem from the talented team of Lee & Ditko' on as many books as he wanted - those Kirby covers SOLD the books!

I can't even imagine what it must've been like when AF #15 hit... wherever it was that Ditko got the idea for that costume, it immediately caught people's attention!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961

DC would put out a letter about the price increase. Unlike Dell, who experienced an immediate back lash at 15 cents, DC would actually sell MORE copies of their books at 12 cents throughout the 60's.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961

In Action Comics #285 - Having gotten her powers back a few issues before, Superman finally reveals Supergirl's existence to the world! (Curt Swan cover - George Klein inks!) Jerry Siegel story. And the letters page...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1961...

Well, not really. The 1st annual Alley Awards wouldn't be released in Alter Ego until the following year, but its interesting to take a look at them now for the year 1961...

 

Best Regularly Published Comic Book - Justice League of America  (DC Comics) - It's interesting to note that, JLA, from what we can see of the sales numbers... was pretty good. 13th is... pretty good. According to Comichron's 1961 Average Total Paid Circulation as Reported in Publishers' Statements of Ownership and Filed with the United States Postal Service numbers, it hit 335,000 copies. LOIS LANE and JIMMY OLSEN's paid circulation was over 500,000. Was... Stan Lee influenced by the praise he heard from Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas for JLA, prompting him to green light the FF? It certainly wasn't influenced by the book, which it had nothing really in common with. Eventually the Avengers would be. JLA was definitely a Comic Books fans' comic book. 

(Rather than just calling Stan a liar, it makes sense that from HIS perspective - FF WAS influenced by JLA - in talking with Jerry and Roy (another connection, pre-Marvel employee that very little is really made of), he hears them gush about the JLA - then DESIRES that ADULATION for himself. Wants a team book. Kirby of course would remember it as being influenced by Challengers of the Unknown, because that's where HIS ideas for it came from...)

Best Adventure Hero(ine) Having Own Comic Book - Green Lantern  (DC Comics) - Again, the Super Hero Comic Collector LOVED this. But it sold even less than JLA...about 255,000 in paid circulation. The Adventures of the Fly was at 240,000. Not knocking it - Gil Kane did some great work here, but its interesting to see the numbers in comparison....

Best Adventure Hero(ine) Not Having Own Comic Book - Hawkman  (DC Comics) - Shouldn't be a surprise as this was discussed in an early issue of Alter Ego. They'd have to wait a few more years...

Best Supporting Character - The Elongated Man  (DC Comics) - Seriously? The Elongated Man... I'm not sure I've ever typed his name before, first appeared in Flash #112, and would have maybe 4-5 appearances before this poll was taken. I never realized how popular he was with Super Hero Comic Book Fans... his first appearance pre-dates Mr. Fantastic by exactly 18 months. Why is very little made of this connection? Did Jerry and Roy gush about their love for this character to Stan and...

Best Cover - The Flash #123, "Flash of Two Worlds"  (DC Comics) - Classic then. Classic now. It'd take Marvel a few more years to do their version of the Flash, by taking a character from Quality Comics and twisting him just enough to not get sued (Quicksilver). Strangely enough, DC would buy the rights to that original character and Mark Waid would reboot him as Max Mercury a couple of decades later!

Best Single Issue - The Flash #123, "Flash of Two Worlds" [by Gardner Fox & Carmine Infantino]  (DC Comics)

Best Artist (Pencil or Ink) - Carmine Infantino - It's strange that many forget how big of a deal this man was at one time...

Best Story - The Flash #123, "Flash of Two Worlds"  (DC Comics) 

Best Adventure-Hero Group - Justice League of America  (DC Comics) 

Hero or Heroine Most Worthy of Revival - The Spectre  (DC Comics) - We'd have to wait almost 5 more years for this one!

Worst Comic Book Currently Published - Wonder Woman  (DC Comics) - Awww... buncha He-Man, Woman Haters' Club members! I used to collect this part of the run (some of which is kinda tough to find), which heavily featured Wonder Girl - sometimes more prominently than Wonder Woman... with Kanigher stories and Ross Andru art. There's some stinkers in here, and some decent stuff too, but none of it is really any worse than anything else out at the time. 

[Zonker]

Understand this isn't meant as a rebuttal, but since it sounds like you may be working this into a book, you'll want to consider all the various angles.  

The thing I still cannot get my mind around is why would Goodman as the money guy wait until 1961 to green-light FF #1 as a copycat for Kirby's Challengers?  That series' best days were behind it by 1961.  Seems more likely that the more-recent arrival of the Justice League of America had something to do with it.  You mention its circulation of 335,000 being "pretty good," and I agree in a world where Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane are selling a half-million copies an issue, 335k is nothing to write home about.  But anything related to Superman at this time was apparently a license to print money, and Goodman couldn't very well copy Jimmy or Lois, could he?  

On the same John Wells excerpt I mentioned earlier, I found these pages, which put a slightly different spin on the legends of the golf game and Joan's chat with hubby Stan:

Something like this seems to make sense to me:

• By 1961, both Stan and Jack's separate newspaper comic strip ambitions have been frustrated.
• Goodman gets word through industry contacts (but not Donenfeld or Liebowitz) about JLA as a recent sales success.
• Joan points out if Stan put the energy into his day job that he had spent in moonlighting, then he might have more success 
• So Goodman green-lights FF as a JLA me-too, but Jack and Stan do it their way

The JLA take-off explains that otherwise odd cover copy about the FF being "together for the first time" in #1, as if it were an all-star line-up like the Avengers later came to be.  Maybe Stan wrote that cover copy solely for Goodman's benefit, or maybe Stan thought the readers would assume they were getting 4 proven superstars in 1 comic for a single dime, rather than a quartet of unknowns.  Even though 4 super-heroes for 10 cents still wasn't as good a deal as the Justice League, and would seem positively stingy by comparison to the Legion of Super-Heroes!  

[Prince Namor]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:49 PM, Zonker said:

Understand this isn't meant as a rebuttal, but since it sounds like you may be working this into a book, you'll want to consider all the various angles.  

No I don't see it that way at all... it helps me flesh out the ideas... It's very welcome!

On 12/19/2022 at 7:49 PM, Zonker said:

The thing I still cannot get my mind around is why would Goodman as the money guy wait until 1961 to green-light FF #1 as a copycat for Kirby's Challengers?  That series' best days were behind it by 1961.  Seems more likely that the more-recent arrival of the Justice League of America had something to do with it.  You mention its circulation of 335,000 being "pretty good," and I agree in a world where Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane are selling a half-million copies an issue, 335k is nothing to write home about.  But anything related to Superman at this time was apparently a license to print money, and Goodman couldn't very well copy Jimmy or Lois, could he?  

They obviously ripped off Elongated Man for Mr. Fantastic - in fact both companies ripped each other off on a regular basis...

On 12/19/2022 at 7:49 PM, Zonker said:

On the same John Wells excerpt I mentioned earlier, I found these pages, which put a slightly different spin on the legends of the golf game and Joan's chat with hubby Stan:

Jack Kirby did NOT dream of escaping comic books for newspaper strips. He liked the idea of it as great side money. But he disliked the limitations it had to storytelling.

In 1961, Jack was RELIEVED that Sky Masters was over. 

And as I've shown above, he was making more money than he had in awhile with regular (though low paying) work at Marvel. Sure he had to work twice as hard to make the same as he did at DC, but he was doing it. 

On 12/19/2022 at 7:49 PM, Zonker said:

The ideal that Lee was moonlighting and writing television material and newspaper features in his spare time is hilarious. No where in Stan's huge collection of personal belongings is there any proof of such stuff. No where for any TV show or newspaper is there any proof of such stuff. I call BS.

His work with Kirby and Ditko changed... Millie the Model and Patsy & Hedy stayed the same. Hmmm...

The golf game has obviously been disproven, but keeps getting changed. For a story that didn't show up until...when? The 1990's? It sure has been changed a lot. First it was with Liebowitz. He denied it. Then Donefeld. He denied it. Now it's an anonymous guy...

And obviously they weren't limited to 8 titles a month. Has this guy got anything right in this?

On 12/19/2022 at 7:49 PM, Zonker said:

Something like this seems to make sense to me:

• By 1961, both Stan and Jack's separate newspaper comic strip ambitions have been frustrated.
• Goodman gets word through industry contacts (but not Donenfeld or Liebowitz) about JLA as a recent sales success.
• Joan points out if Stan put the energy into his day job that he had spent in moonlighting, then he might have more success 
• So Goodman green-lights FF as a JLA me-too, but Jack and Stan do it their way

The JLA take-off explains that otherwise odd cover copy about the FF being "together for the first time" in #1, as if it were an all-star line-up like the Avengers later came to be.  Maybe Stan wrote that cover copy solely for Goodman's benefit, or maybe Stan thought the readers would assume they were getting 4 proven superstars in 1 comic for a single dime, rather than a quartet of unknowns.  Even though 4 super-heroes for 10 cents still wasn't as good a deal as the Justice League, and would seem positively stingy by comparison to the Legion of Super-Heroes!  

I don't buy it. Stan created the whole story in 1974. And then kept amending it over and over. People just keep repeating it.

Reading the comics, I see it coming about differently. 

[Prince Namor]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:49 PM, Zonker said:

The thing I still cannot get my mind around is why would Goodman as the money guy wait until 1961 to green-light FF #1 as a copycat for Kirby's Challengers?  That series' best days were behind it by 1961. 

You think Goodman green-lit Linda Carter, Student Nurse and canceled Kirby's Amazing Adventures (his best book seller) so Stan could do a book with Steve Ditko called Amazing ADULT Adventures?

Same as he put Spider-man in a book despite Goodman saying it was a bad idea???

Lee used Goodman as a shield for his lies and to keep people at a distance on decisions. He's often said, Martin couldn't care less what they printed as long as they had a Western title. THAT is the truth.

Stan saw an opportunity with Jack and took it.

Goodman is a prop in the story. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Zonker]

Well, something triggered things in 1961!  

And it wasn't the Elongated Man.