Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back 1 1

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a 5 page story in Strange Tales #87. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a 5 page story in Tales of Suspense #20. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a 5 page story in Tales to Astonish #22. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

At Marvel Comics in the first part of the 60's, they had a struggle to keep the comics going. One of the few bright spots was Kirby's monster books, which were selling better than anything else. But there's only ONE Jack Kirby, so how many monster books can you do? If only there was another artist who could do monsters as well as Jack...

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a Charlton Comics adaptation of the movie Gorgo, in Gorgo #1. 

22 WHOLE PAGES.

How could Marvel not see and recognize that? After the fact its sort of accepted that Kirby and Ditko were equal talents that serviced Stan Lee's editorial leadership, but the actual facts show us otherwise. Ditko did about the same as Paul Reinman and just a bit more than Don Heck. It was only after the success of THIS with Charlton (and Konga #1 the same month) that Lee would latch on to Ditko to try and compete with Kirby's popularity (while reining him in under his 'writing'). 

Stan didn't suddenly change his writing style and make Marvel Comics happen - as I'll show even more specifically here - he just latched on to the talent that was already at work - out of fear that he would get left behind. Kirby and Ditko were already doing what they do; Kirby creating new ideas and universes (his monster characters were already making 2nd appearances) and Ditko adapting ideas into a unique look and world that was ready to expand even further.

Stan was just too busy doing the dumb blonde comics and the genre westerns. THAT is what he knew. 

He didn't change. He didn't suddenly 'listen to his wife'. He latched onto the talent that was already there. He just had to make some editorial changes to let the world know, HE was the mastermind behind it all, so that he could get paid more and take the credit...

In the meantime...

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Written by Joe Gill. 

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a Charlton Comics adaptation of the movie Gorgo, in Gorgo #1. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Written by Joe Gill. 

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a Charlton Comics adaptation of the movie Gorgo, in Gorgo #1. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Written by Joe Gill. 

Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

And in case you're curious and want to transport back to 1961, here's the MOVIE.... Gorgo (1961)

 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

Just in case you're not convinced that this was THAT big of deal, in May, Steve Ditko ALSO did pencils and inks for a ANOTHER Charlton Comics adaptation, this one for the movie Konga (1961), in Konga #1. 

Another 22 PAGE story. How could Stan Lee NOT notice?

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Written by Joe Gill. 

Part ONE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a ANOTHER Charlton Comics adaptation, this one for the movie Konga (1961), in Konga #1. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Written by Joe Gill. 

Part TWO:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In May, Steve Ditko did pencils and inks for a ANOTHER Charlton Comics adaptation, this one for the movie Konga (1961), in Konga #1. 

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Written by Joe Gill. (MR. Giordano cover).

Part THREE:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

Meanwhile, DC Comics was still coming up with story ideas that were new and exciting to the art form. Supergirl loses her powers - not for one issue - but over a number of issues - and has to deal with it... I'm not aware of this happening to a character before this - is it the first time we've seen this?

Action Comics #278 - again Jerry Siegel gives us an interesting story during this period, fleshing out these characters in a way that is new to the genre, before Stan Lee even gets into the game... why isn't Siegel's work remembered from this time? It WAS important to the history of it...

Art by Jim Mooney. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

THEN, you also had the first appearance of Sinestro this month, in Green Lantern #7! The Silver Age was in full swing!

Art by Gil Kane, Story by John Broome

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In Superman #146, writer Otto Binder and artist Al Plastino give us a complete recap of Superman's life so far... this is DC coordinating their Universe (we all know how convoluted it would eventually get...), realizing that they have something going on with these characters... editorially they're preparing and planning their Superhero Universe. All of this before, FF #1 ever hit the stands...

[Zonker]

On 11/30/2022 at 7:10 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS MAY 1961

In Superman #146, writer Otto Binder and artist Al Plastino give us a complete recap of Superman's life so far... this is DC coordinating their Universe (we all know how convoluted it would eventually get...), realizing that they have something going on with these characters... editorially they're preparing and planning their Superhero Universe. All of this before, FF #1 ever hit the stands...

Yes, whatever his faults, editor Mort Weisinger deserves a lot of credit for what we now take for granted in terms of universe-building and fandom outreach.  During these years Weisinger was self-consciously building up a Superman mythology, introducing new concepts like multi-colored Kryptonite, the Fortress of Solitude, the Phantom Zone, the Legion of Super-Heroes, the Bizarros, etc. and weaving these innovations throughout all the different Superman family of books.  The mythology also spanned the centuries, from the then-present day, to the recent past of Superboy's time, to 1000 years in the future with the Legion.  So for example, Mon-El could be introduced in the Superboy comic, appear in ghostly Phantom-Zone form in the Superman and Supergirl strips, and then finally be rescued from the Phantom Zone in the 30th century to join the Legion.  I believe Weisinger may also have been the first editor of super-hero comics to publish readers' letters to the editor, including the letter writer's return address, that helped to promote comics fandom of the day. EC Comics had published letters years earlier, but those were a different type of comic for a different type of fandom, more centered on the comics medium itself and its creators, and less about following the same characters from issue to issue.

[Prince Namor]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:56 AM, Zonker said:

Yes, whatever his faults, editor Mort Weisinger deserves a lot of credit for what we now take for granted in terms of universe-building and fandom outreach.  During these years Weisinger was self-consciously building up a Superman mythology, introducing new concepts like multi-colored Kryptonite, the Fortress of Solitude, the Phantom Zone, the Legion of Super-Heroes, the Bizarros, etc. and weaving these innovations throughout all the different Superman family of books.  The mythology also spanned the centuries, from the then-present day, to the recent past of Superboy's time, to 1000 years in the future with the Legion.  So for example, Mon-El could be introduced in the Superboy comic, appear in ghostly Phantom-Zone form in the Superman and Supergirl strips, and then finally be rescued from the Phantom Zone in the 30th century to join the Legion.  I believe Weisinger may also have been the first editor of super-hero comics to publish readers' letters to the editor, including the letter writer's return address, that helped to promote comics fandom of the day. EC Comics had published letters years earlier, but those were a different type of comic for a different type of fandom, more centered on the comics medium itself and its creators, and less about following the same characters from issue to issue.

Yep.

Their biggest mistake they made was in lacking the self-promotion for themselves that Stan Lee did for himself. 

In fact, when examining all of this, and seeing the work these guys did, the ideas they brought forth, it shines a much stranger light on Stan... having already been down this path, but now adding the DC Comics side of it to the research, I know what's ahead... and it makes Stan really stand out as a glory seeker, and NOT as a visionary. His goal was to promote Stan Lee, he just used the comics that Kirby, Ditko and Romita did as a vehicle to get there. The DC editors really were trying to make the best comics they could. Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were trying to make the best comics they could.

Stan.... well, you'll see. 

Many Marvel Zombies really do believe that if Marvel Superheroes hadn't come along, comics would've died out and fandom would've never gotten started... when the truth is, like much of what is discussed in these threads, all you have to do is read the comics and follow the timelines and see...

The reality is... Marvel rode DC's Superhero wave. All through the 60's, it sold much less than DC Comics best sellers did. It really didn't pick up steam until Stan left the office, started traveling to colleges to promote the books (and himself) and Ditko and Kirby had less and less input from him. 

From a sales standpoint, the 1966-67 Cartoons helped - that's around the time Marvel actually started showing print run numbers for the 'Big Three', ASM, FF and Thor. And Batman's TV show success may've also helped, just in the cultural acceptance of the art form. 

But yeah... what DC did PRIOR to FF #1 is sadly under reported, under examined and under appreciated. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

Two Months before the Fantastic Four #1 hit the stands, DC Comics reprints the origin of the Challengers of the Unknown (the first chapter) by Jack Kirby...

Justice League, as we'd see in the year ending statements would sell on average 335,000 copies per issue, about 100,000 more than Challengers of the Unknown, which had fallen without Kirby doing it. 

Still, JLA lags behind the #10 comics for DC, Adventure Comics, by 125,000 copies. 

So, if its true, why did Marvel feel the need to copy a team book? If success was the gauge, why not copy Supergirl in Action at almost half a million copies a month? Or Batman at almost half a million copies a month? Or Superboy at 625,000 copies a month (the FIRST teen superhero that was NOT a sidekick - sorry, Stan, he beats Spidey by almost a decade). Or even SuperMAN at 825,000?

Because FF was influenced by Kirby's Challengers.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

For June, Marvel would release 11 titles to the newsstand (Now averaging 9.5 books per month)

Stan Lee would write 6 of the titles for the month.

 

Millie the Model #104 - with art by Stan Goldberg 

Kid Colt Outlaw #100 - 4 stories with

Linda Carter, Student Nurse #1 -  with Al Hartley art 

Patsy Walker #96 -  with Al Hartley art 

Kathy #12 - with art by Stan Goldberg. 

Life With Millie #12 - with art by Stan Goldberg 

 

The other 5 are:

Amazing Adventures #4  

Journey Into Mystery #71

Tales of Suspense #21

Tales to Astonish #23

Strange Tales #88  

[Zonker]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:34 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

Two Months before the Fantastic Four #1 hit the stands, DC Comics reprints the origin of the Challengers of the Unknown (the first chapter) by Jack Kirby...

Justice League, as we'd see in the year ending statements would sell on average 335,000 copies per issue, about 100,000 more than Challengers of the Unknown, which had fallen without Kirby doing it. 

Still, JLA lags behind the #10 comics for DC, Adventure Comics, by 125,000 copies. 

So, if its true, why did Marvel feel the need to copy a team book? If success was the gauge, why not copy Supergirl in Action at almost half a million copies a month? Or Batman at almost half a million copies a month? Or Superboy at 625,000 copies a month (the FIRST teen superhero that was NOT a sidekick - sorry, Stan, he beats Spidey by almost a decade). Or even SuperMAN at 825,000?

Because FF was influenced by Kirby's Challengers.

You've convinced me Challengers no doubt was on Kirby's mind when plotting/co-plotting/whatever FF #1.
But I don't follow how Marvel could have copied Supergirl, Superboy, Superman (essentially 3 copies of the same thing), or Batman for that matter.  DC had shown what could happen to a comics company that got too close to infringing on its IP when they sued Fawcett over Captain Marvel.  Not that I think DC would have won that case had Fawcett not folded, but surely a potentially expensive nuisance lawsuit was the last thing Goodman wanted, particularly since a superhero copy-cat was not at all guaranteed to succeed (considering their abortive relaunch of Captain America a few years earlier).
Seems more likely that Goodman was more receptive to the idea of trying superheroes by the success of not only the Superman & Batman related comics (which had continued to be successful enough throughout the 1950s), but by the new breed coming from DC, including the Flash, Green Lantern and the JLA.  It wasn't just about Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman anymore, so maybe by 1961 there was room for other superpowered characters to find an audience. 
And why not a team, while they were at it?  It would be a less risky bet than picking a single character that might or might not resonate with the audience in 1961.  So, you have the Human Torch as a straight superhero revival, the Thing as a continuation of the recent monster-themed books, and Reed & Sue as characters with fairly "safe," archetypical, easily understood powers.  Plus, a bit of soap opera potential, possibly to again hedge their bets on finding an audience.
So, the fabled golf game may never have happened, but I have to believe the business decision to go with FF#1 had a lot more to do with the books that were succeeding in 1960/1961 than a book launched years previously which as you note had its best days behind it by 1961.

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY:

So in April, Charlton releases the final issue of Teen Secret Diary (#11) featuring a cover by Joe Sinnott and Vince Colletta (both of who have or ARE working for Stan Lee). On the cover we see a blurb 'Introducing in this issue!!! Nurse Betsy Crane"  (Charlton experts - I'm getting a sense that this is a tough issue to find...)

That's THREE exclamation marks... so obviously they had high hopes for this.

And sure enough, in June, Nurse Betsy Crane would debut with issue #12 

Now...

 

[Prince Namor]

ANATOMY OF A STORY:

...Colletta, who was known for being a back stabbing, secret sharing agent of Marvel, obviously said something to Stan, because out of the blue, Lee creates 'Linda Carter Student Nurse' (#1) ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

It's a pretty typical Stan Lee dumb blonde (in this case 'brunette' - way to 'mix' it up!) that would somehow last a whole 9 issues, all drawn and (according to him at this point) story plotted by Al Hartley. And of course Stan would add his usual filler of paper dolls and coloring pages...

What was Stan thinking? THIS isn't what was selling for him. But obviously he was caught up in the very, VERY temporary 'Nurse' frenzy...

Nurse frenzy, you say?...

Edited December 1, 2022 by Prince Namor