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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1960's (1961) The Castaway Strikes Back
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1961

Once again, DC is far ahead of the game, as Batman Annual #1, gives the Caped Crusader his first yearly 25 cent book. As Dell continues to shoot itself in the foot with its 15 cent 36 pagers, DC imitates the format that Archie Comics had been doing for over a decade - 84 pages, 25 cents, once a year, MULTIPLE titles...

(Archie Annuals actually started out at 116 pages for a quarter in 1949, went as low as 68 pages in 1953, had 100 pages for a few years, before settling on 84 in 1958.)

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

For July, Marvel would release 10 titles to the newsstand (Now averaging 9.57 books per month)

Stan Lee would only write 3 of the titles for the month.

 

Rawhide Kid #24 - and let's face it, Kirby writes 18 pages of this, with the other story a 5 pager with Ayers.

GunSmoke Western #66 - 4 stories with Keller, Kirby, Ayers, and a rare Ditko western!

Patsy & Hedy #78 -  with Al Hartley art 

 

The other 7 are:

Amazing Adventures #5  

Journey Into Mystery #72

Tales of Suspense #22

Tales to Astonish #24

Strange Tales #89

Love Romances #95

Teen-Age Romances #83 

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Prince Namor

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Joan Lee changes the course of Marvel History

Stan Lee's wife, Joan, is mad.

She paces the large apartment, a cigarette in one hand, a martini in the other. "You think we can survive this lifestyle off just your editor salary?"

Stan is exasperated, slumping down on the big plush, living room sofa, "I just don't know what to do. Martin is saying that we're going to take a break from the books in October... but I see the writing on the wall. I may not even have that editor salary soon..."

Joan puts her foot down. "What are you going to do? Feel sorry for yourself? You need to make some comics that SELL. Show Martin you can run that company and be successful."

"I-I've tried... this Nurse comic doesn't look promising. I've been trying to get Jack Kirby to let me work with him, but he isn't interested... the monster thing can't go on forever... I..."

Joan sets her Martini down and stares at her husband. She takes a long drag of her L&M cigarette, and puts it out in the ash tray. "You're sniveling, Stanley. Stop it. Get it together!"

She stomps over to the kitchen counter top and picks up copies of DC's latest comics that Stan has brought home. "See. THIS is what you should be doing. Superheroes. Superman is the everywhere. Even his girlfriend Lois Lane has a comic!"

Stan quietly replies, "Jack has been trying to get Martin to let him do a superhero book. He's not too keen on the idea..."

Joan shoots him a look. "Oh he's NOT? Listen Stanley, he's going to SHUT DOWN the comics division. You need to SAVE it."

Joan gets very serious... "You need to WRITE something WITH this Jack Kirby. A super hero comic."

Stan meekly says, "But Jack is writer, too... he wants to write his own stories..."

Joan gets serious. "Don't ever let me hear you call him a writer again. YOU are the writer. You understand? You need to do everything in your power to make him NOT look like a writer. YOU are the writer."

Stan suddenly feels a brief surge of energy. "You're right. I AM the writer. You KNOW I always wanted to write the great American novel!"

Joan busts out laughing, as Stan deflates. She tries to suppress her giggles, until finally... "I'm sorry, I'm sorry... it's just... oh, Stanley, darling. You've just never WRITTEN anything. Martin has magazines and paperback novels... at ANY point you could've written SOMETHING.... ANYTHING to get yourself started. Look how many people came through there that turned into novelists... Mickey Spillane wrote comic book stories, but he also got his real work published and became a novelist. He didn't even have to be related to the publisher!"

Stan feels defeated.

Joan starts quietly. "But it's not about that, my dear. It's about YOU taking the bull by the horns. YOU run the comics there, NOT Martin. You have to get a handle on this thing."

She starts to get more aggressive, "First, you tell Jack Kirby that if he wants to do superheroes, the only way is if he does it WITH you, and YOU'LL sneak it into publication. Got it? So what happens if he doesn't go a long with it? He quits? The comic division gets shut down? You THINK that's going to happen any way, what've you got to lose?"

"Secondly, you have to get it in people's minds that HE is the artist, and YOU are the writer. Perception is everything. It's like advertising - it doesn't matter WHAT the product IS, just HOW you can SELL it. Get ahold of those fanzine kids, make them LIKE you, by giving them inside info...isn't that what you said DC does?"

Stan nods. 

"Make this superhero idea a success, and maybe Martin will keep it all going. Once you're the 'writer' on the whole line of books, think how big your paychecks will be", she smiles.

"But Jack isn't going to suddenly let ME take credit for the Monster books he's been doing for three years on his own..."

Joan sighs. "Darling, darling, darling..." She lights up another L&M.  "YOU are the BOSS. YOU make the decisions. One by one, turn each of them into what YOU want them to be. If this superhero thing works, you'll want more. Right? Turn each one into a superhero idea that he MUST share with YOU, so you 'slip them past Martin'. See?"

The light bulb goes off over Stan's head. 

He smiles, "Of course..."

 

Of course Stan would write a different made up version of this story...

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Prince Namor

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From: DICKAYERS@webtv.net (Richard Ayers)

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 12:40:43 -0500 (EST)

Subject: [kirby-l] answers for Clem & Rich

So, So... regarding those Kirby / Ayers signatures... I always put the

signatures on our work together just as I always sign my work.  I

noticed that the "whiteouts" were happening and it sure didn't make me

happy for I usually had the signature as part of the composition of the

drawing.  It was a sore point.  I'm not keen on the credit boxes that

are added to the drawing and confuse the composition of my drawing.

 

That's from someone else e-mail, but it's Dick Ayers, who was well aware of the 'whiteout' controversy...

Strange Tales #89 would be the first, but Lee began removing the Kirby&Ayers  signatures on all titles published from July 5, 1961 on; almost exactly one month before the publication of FANTASTIC FOUR #1 on August 8, 1961. 

The numbers again would start to come in for the new year, that had to eventually be published in Statement of Ownership, and it showed Kirby's books had again led the way. The monster books were dominating the rest of the line. Stan was going to have to change his game... he was going to have to get involved in those books. And he would.

 

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Strange Tales #89 doesn't look like a story that Kirby had told over and over and over and was sick and tired of telling. Instead he gives us something special. There's just something about Fin Fang Foom that is so much cooler than your typical monster...

Jack Kirby does the cover, and then writes and pencils the 2 part 13 page story, with links by D. Ayers. 

Part ONE:

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Prince Namor

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You have to ask yourself, WHY would Stan Lee remove those signatures of Kirby & Ayers? Was Ditko's name removed from books during this time? Nope. Jack Keller? Nope. Al Hartley? Nope. D. Ayers when he penciled a story on his own??? Nope (See Kid Colt Outlaw #101 or GunSmoke Western #66 this month).

Just when Jack Kirby's name was involved.

And Jack didn't even sign his own name - it was Ayers when he was inked by him!

 

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1961

Strange Tales #89  - Steve Ditko has a story in the book, nothing new there, but lo and behold, we see the splash signed as Stan Lee and Steve Ditko...

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Prince Namor

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Jack Keller, Al Hartley, Don Heck, Paul Reinman, Steve Ditko, and even D. Ayers on his own... all signing the splash page...

This was Lee sending a message. Everyone else is letting me play the writer, Jack...

...everyone is playing the game, Jack...

...why can't YOU?

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Zonker

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On 12/3/2022 at 5:31 AM, Prince Namor said:

Jack Keller, Al Hartley, Don Heck, Paul Reinman, Steve Ditko, and even D. Ayers on his own... all signing the splash page...

This was Lee sending a message. Everyone else is letting me play the writer, Jack...

...everyone is playing the game, Jack...

...why can't YOU?

 

Wow, Strange Tales #89 does indeed seem to be the turning point.  I'm not disputing your interpretation, but it does prompt some questions:

- I didn't see a Stan Lee sig on the Heck and Reinman stories.  Is it somewhere else than the splash page, or did Stan just not bother?

- Most of the Stan Lee sigs we have seen to date have been obvious add-ons.  But the Lee & Ayers box seems to be intentionally created as a credit box.  Did Ayers do that, or do we think it was a cut & paste job by the production department? (Was this an example of what Ayers was talking about in his email?)

- Did Kirby ever explain why he didn't bother to sign his work, instead leaving it to Ayers? Just more of Kirby's modesty-to-a-fault?

- Did any of these guys remember a meeting or a memo from Goodman or Lee saying "OK boys, this is the way it is gonna be from now on..." Seems like such a definite change in policy, someone would remember how it was communicated.

 

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Prince Namor

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On 12/3/2022 at 8:46 PM, Zonker said:

Wow, Strange Tales #89 does indeed seem to be the turning point.  I'm not disputing your interpretation, but it does prompt some questions:

- I didn't see a Stan Lee sig on the Heck and Reinman stories.  Is it somewhere else than the splash page, or did Stan just not bother?

Stan didn't write it (or 'edit' it) if he didn't sign it. If he wasn't interested in some sort of credit for something he just let others take care of it. 

On 12/3/2022 at 8:46 PM, Zonker said:

- Most of the Stan Lee sigs we have seen to date have been obvious add-ons.  But the Lee & Ayers box seems to be intentionally created as a credit box.  Did Ayers do that, or do we think it was a cut & paste job by the production department? (Was this an example of what Ayers was talking about in his email?)

Ayers always signed his work, but yeah that box looks like a paste on. Stan apparently did not like the 'Ayers + Lee' signature, and needed to replace start making his own signature WITH an artist more prominent to show HE was the writer.

It's easy to see now, the credit boxes that would soon appear, were done for CONTROL, not CREDIT. 

On 12/3/2022 at 8:46 PM, Zonker said:

- Did Kirby ever explain why he didn't bother to sign his work, instead leaving it to Ayers? Just more of Kirby's modesty-to-a-fault?

Kirby always said his job was to sell books. He wasn't a glory hound. His biggest fault was trusting Joe Simon and Stan Lee to look out for his best interests. 

On 12/3/2022 at 8:46 PM, Zonker said:

- Did any of these guys remember a meeting or a memo from Goodman or Lee saying "OK boys, this is the way it is gonna be from now on..." Seems like such a definite change in policy, someone would remember how it was communicated.

The only real change was in what he did to Kirby - Ayers just happened to be in the way. Lee was specifically focused on removing KIRBY. He even would call Kirby a glory hound 'signing his name everywhere' in his passive aggressive way - as a 'joke' - in the letters pages of FF #3 a few months later. He REALLY had a bee in his bonnet for Jack getting credit as anything more than an artist. He would even put it in one of his dumb blonde comics... you'll see... it's REALLY noticeable as you read the stories what was happening. 

Also, as far as any changes, Stan ALWAYS worked this way. There are varying stories of how much info he gave for a story, but he just NEVER wrote a --script. Remember, for a decade he worked this way with Dan DeCarlo and Al Hartley on all the dumb blonde books - and most of these artists had no illusions of 'creating' or any of it leading to anything special. Just where they were 'allowed' to sign their names.

They would just acquiescence to the 'boss'. 

Stan sometimes handed out other peoples scripts or synopsis, but remained vague as to who's they were as it wasn't seen as important at the time and the artist didn't much care - they were just looking for work and casually signing their name to things - or sometimes not.

THAT is getting ready to change... in a very dramatic way.

For Stan - signing the work - it was always about something breaking and becoming big (and getting paid). It was always about credit and pay. He was constantly trying to get a hit with a newspaper strip with DeCarlo, with Maneely, with Hartley - or a comic idea - a Dexter the Demon or a Homer the Happy Ghost... his problem was he just wasn't a creative guy. He had to copy someone else's idea or piggyback off the work of a creative artist.

At the end of Jack's time with Joe Simon, he knew he didn't really need anyone piggybacking off of HIM. He could put a complete story together like a chef making a nightly meal. He did it at DC despite having writers occasionally forced on him (that he mostly ignored) and at Marvel with three years of those monster stories. 

It's really a disservice to that work at Marvel even early on - to have Lee and Marvel lie and say Stan Lee did the plots (he came up with it all!) and Larry Lieber the --script (to make it a 'team' effort) for Jack... to just draw! See again how there's that need to diminish what Kirby WAS, what he DID. Stan couldn't, and didn't sign those stories - remember he even signed paper doll pages in the dumb blonde books - so he had to show SOMEHOW that Kirby DIDN'T WRITE.

What a load of horse poop. Repetitive as they are - Jack entertained 2 - 3 - 4 times a month... month after month for 3 years pumping those things out like an amazing source of creativity in a restrictive form... only to be stripped of his credit by... the 'Boss'. 

Many people think Jack waited until the Comic Journal Interview late in life to discuss these things, but he brought it up many times over the years... as early as 1968...

EXCELSIOR: Do you plot the Fantastic Four stories by drawing the basic story and then having Stan write the dialogue?
JACK: This is Stanley’s editorial policy. As a Marvel artist, I carry it out.

FROM Interview originally published in Excelsior #1, 1968 (Those pictures are from someone's eBay listing! I just bought a copy, so...)

---------------

"Stan Lee, I guess, came to Marvel when I was doing Captain America in the 1940s. He was a young fellow, and we were just nodding acquaintances. He was very nice, certainly, and we were nice to each other; we got along. That was about it; there was no evidence that we’d ever get together in any way as editor and artist. It just happened that way, that’s all; I came back to Marvel and Stan Lee was editor. I went to work for Stan Lee, and whatever Stan Lee’s policies are, they’re my policies. Whatever kind of a job Stan Lee wants done, I will do that job. I feel that’s the artist’s job; to cooperate with the policy of the publishing house. I’ve always done that."

FROM 1969 Interview by Shel Dorf and Rich Rubenfeld - Part 2 - Published in TJKC #37 (Fall 2002)

------------------

AUDIENCE: Would you say that Stan Lee added revolutionary ideas to comics?
KIRBY: I’d say that Stan Lee quoted me quite a good deal.

FROM SDCC Speech 1970, one month before Jimmy Olsen #133

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